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  #1  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:40 PM
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Default Cattaraugus 225Q

My new "toy". I've been wanting a Cattaraugus 225Q since I learned of their existence about a month ago. Won this one on eBay, $110 shipped. Razor sharp! In the eBay pics, the sheath looked like it had been dyed black. Not the case. Someone blued the blade. They did a nice job. Next on the purchase list is a Case 337-6-Q.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:09 PM
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Good choice!
One of my long time favs.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:27 PM
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pretty good deal. mine looks pretty rough in comparison, but was carried by my grandfather. Not sure if I should try and correct some of the worst of the damage. Massive scrapes bordering on gouges where it looks like it was rough "ground" with a file. Sheath is just about shot, but repros are available. Leather washers not rotten though.
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Old 08-08-2020, 10:07 AM
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Found one here in ATL back in January. Heavily used but still in good usable condition, and SHARP. Yours is very nice.
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:55 PM
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Very nice, and a good price as well. Some good deals are found by searching Cattaraugus 2250 on Ebay.
Guess some mistake the Q for a 0.
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Old 08-08-2020, 03:15 PM
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I was very happy with the condition of this one when I received it. There is a little bit of pitting on the blade in spots. Given it's age, that is to be expected and does not bother me. I was mostly concerned about the leather handle being dry rotted. That was not the case.
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:43 PM
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Any idea the steel used?
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:11 PM
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Remember this a WWII issue knife.
It’s most likely 1095 Carbon Steel or Similar.
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:34 PM
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I bought mine about 15 or so years ago. Paid $35.00 for it back then. Will try to remember to post a picture of it tomorrow.
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:14 PM
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I bought mine about 15 or so years ago. Paid $35.00 for it back then. Will try to remember to post a picture of it tomorrow.
Here are the pictures that I promised.........
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Old 08-09-2020, 02:42 PM
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Great pictures. Here is a 225Q (top) and a KA-BAR that belonged to my late FIL:
Cattaraugus 225Q-ka-bar_cattaraugus2-jpg
The sheath is for the KA-BAR. Alas, no sheath for the 225Q.
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Old 08-09-2020, 03:11 PM
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Great pictures. Here is a 225Q (top) and a KA-BAR that belonged to my late FIL:
Cattaraugus 225Q-ka-bar_cattaraugus2-jpg
The sheath is for the KA-BAR. Alas, no sheath for the 225Q.
Since this is a 225Q thread I will not post another picture.

I too, have a Kabar, two in fact. One I carried in the Corps and a WW II Kabar that WW II/Korea USMC Vet carried back then.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:53 PM
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The Cattaraugus are my favorite combat knife. I have two, one my Dad had that someone took a grinder to, and another one I found in real good shape, sheath and all. Bark River Knives built a tribute knife, called the Quartermaster.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:31 PM
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The Cattaraugus are my favorite combat knife. I have two, one my Dad had that someone took a grinder to, and another one I found in real good shape, sheath and all. Bark River Knives built a tribute knife, called the Quartermaster.
The 225Q was not designed or accepted as a combat knife. It is believed that they were issued to the Quartermaster's personnel to assist in opening boxes and wooden crates. WWII – The Cattaraugus 225 Q Commando | The High Road

Did some more research on Frank Trzaska's Website: US Military Knives Bayonets Machetes

This is what he had to say:
Cattaraugus 225Q

After studying these knives for quite some years I still can not come up with documentary evidence that they were purchased by the government for the Quartermaster Corps or any other branch for that matter. I have been told by many that such paperwork exists but it has taken on the mystique of an AUrban Legend@ to me. AThe blades were made extra thick to pry open wooden crates.@ AThe pommels were doubled and checkered to provide a hammering surface for resealing the crates.@ These are just a few of the often repeated comments I have heard concerning these knives. Are they true? I would think that a pry bar or a hammer would be better suited for such activities. I do know that J.B.F. Champlin was the wartime president of Cattaraugus Cutlery Co. Mr. Champlin=s son Jack, was in the Army Quartermaster Corps stationed in Europe. Is this a coincidence by any chance? Jack carried a 225Q knife made especially for him according to local newspaper accounts. Could this have been the connection for that mysterious AQ@ stamped on the blades of the Cattaraugus and the Case examples of this knife? The knives were, at the time, known by the factory workers as ACommando@ knives but we have gathered that the moniker was a marketing ploy as they look nothing like the original ACommando@ knives. Again that seems to be aimed at general sales and marketing not a government contract. If anyone has access to any government records showing the actual purchase of 225Q type knives I sure would like to see it. Let=s put this Acommon knowledge@ issue to rest once and for all.
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:58 PM
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The 225Q was not designed or accepted as a combat knife. It is believed that they were issued to the Quartermaster's personnel to assist in opening boxes and wooden crates. WWII – The Cattaraugus 225 Q Commando | The High Road

Did some more research on Frank Trzaska's Website: US Military Knives Bayonets Machetes

This is what he had to say:
Cattaraugus 225Q

After studying these knives for quite some years I still can not come up with documentary evidence that they were purchased by the government for the Quartermaster Corps or any other branch for that matter. I have been told by many that such paperwork exists but it has taken on the mystique of an AUrban Legend@ to me. AThe blades were made extra thick to pry open wooden crates.@ AThe pommels were doubled and checkered to provide a hammering surface for resealing the crates.@ These are just a few of the often repeated comments I have heard concerning these knives. Are they true? I would think that a pry bar or a hammer would be better suited for such activities. I do know that J.B.F. Champlin was the wartime president of Cattaraugus Cutlery Co. Mr. Champlin=s son Jack, was in the Army Quartermaster Corps stationed in Europe. Is this a coincidence by any chance? Jack carried a 225Q knife made especially for him according to local newspaper accounts. Could this have been the connection for that mysterious AQ@ stamped on the blades of the Cattaraugus and the Case examples of this knife? The knives were, at the time, known by the factory workers as ACommando@ knives but we have gathered that the moniker was a marketing ploy as they look nothing like the original ACommando@ knives. Again that seems to be aimed at general sales and marketing not a government contract. If anyone has access to any government records showing the actual purchase of 225Q type knives I sure would like to see it. Let=s put this Acommon knowledge@ issue to rest once and for all.
1.25 million plus 225Qs sold to the US Military, issued all across the forces, not just to the Quartermaster Corps. I have seen photos of GIs carrying them in WW2. Mike named his the Quartermaster becauseit needed a name.....🤣
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:09 PM
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Mine was traded for, by my Father, while serving in the South Pacific during WW 2. {HE was Navy and had his own PT boat} I got it from him. They are heavy duty knives. When I was a kid, I used the Knifes butt plate to pound in tent stakes. Old wooden stakes for an old canvas tent.
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:32 PM
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1.25 million plus 225Qs sold to the US Military, issued all across the forces, not just to the Quartermaster Corps. I have seen photos of GIs carrying them in WW2. Mike named his the Quartermaster becauseit needed a name.....🤣
I don't think that many Kabars were purchased during WW II. Would like to see copies of the contracts.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:48 PM
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Once Saw a Prototype Kabar.
Belonged to Marine Raider Gordon Warner.
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:59 AM
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...was my father's issued knife in WWII when he was in the Navy...

When I was about 12 and needing a knife for the outdoors my mother ordered a Craftsman/Sears small upswept skinner type knife. They were out of stock and when my father found out went upstairs and came down with two knives, one for me and one for my brother. I ended up with the Catteraugus and my brother a Robson also with about a 5.5" blade.

It was the only fixed blade knife I had for about 15 years.

When my mother's father died I inherited a big box of old knives...and what was in it...one of the Craftsmen skinners that I didn't get as a kid...

Bob
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:23 AM
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Did some more research on Frank Trzaska's Website: This is what he had to say:
Cattaraugus 225Q

... I still can not come up with documentary evidence that they were purchased by the government for the Quartermaster Corps or any other branch for that matter. I have been told by many that such paperwork exists but it has taken on the mystique of an AUrban Legend@ to me. The blades were made extra thick to pry open wooden crates. The pommels were doubled and checkered to provide a hammering surface for resealing the crates. These are just a few of the often repeated comments I have heard concerning these knives. Are they true? I would think that a pry bar or a hammer would be better suited for such activities. ...
Sure, a whole tool truck would be great to have. While you're at it, throw in a couple of trailers full of spare parts, nuts and bolts, and don't forget coffee and donuts!

But that ignores the haphazard and chaotic conditions encountered during warfare. Guys found themselves having to do all sorts of jobs with only the tools they had on them. In such situations, the 225 Q was a godsend.
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Old 08-10-2020, 05:22 PM
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Sure, a whole tool truck would be great to have. While you're at it, throw in a couple of trailers full of spare parts, nuts and bolts, and don't forget coffee and donuts!

But that ignores the haphazard and chaotic conditions encountered during warfare. Guys found themselves having to do all sorts of jobs with only the tools they had on them. In such situations, the 225 Q was a godsend.
Lots of hunting knives and utility knives went to war. Knives were highly prized item. So the Marines, soldiers and sailors brought whatever they could find or buy. They were not contract weapons, but they had they. Goes along with all of the handguns that guys carried that came from home. I know the local Sheriff gave some of the confiscated handguns to local guys going off to war. Different times back then...........
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:00 PM
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I have a Cattauraugus 225Q that my father brought back from WWII. He was in the signal corps in the Pacific. It sits in my safe. Unfortunately a few of the leather washers are missing, but it does have the sheath. It had belonged to a buddy of his. I was going to get it restored and put it in a shadow box with my Viet Nam era pilot's survival knife, but the cost to restore the 225Q would exceed it's value.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:02 PM
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I've read that there was a severe shortage of knives early in the war. High school boys made knives for the military as a project in shop class.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:59 PM
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Several years ago I bought 3 knives at a yard sale. One happened to be a bayonet for a 1897 Win, which I didn’t know at the time. What caught my eye was a US issue Trench knife. Now I’m not into knives like some guys but I knew guy who would want the Trench Knife real bad. I parlayed it into a Savage 99TD in 300sav. Then found out I had shotgun bayonet which I got $150 out of from same guy. My mistake was the 3rd knife was the Cattaurangus GI issue. The leather handle was in terrible shape as was the sheath. I took butt off to remove leather and ended up putting walnut handle on it and selling for $10. I still have the butt pieces, I didn’t use them with wood handle. I have seen Marbel, Pal, Case and other makes of same pattern that govt bought during WW2. They all had good steel in them.
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Old 08-11-2020, 01:27 AM
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Several years ago I boujght 3 knives at a yard sale. One happened to be a bayonet for a 1897 Win, which I didn’t know at the time. What caught my eye was a US issue Trench knife. Now I’m not into knives like some guys but I knew guy who would want the Trench Knife real bad. I parlayed it into a Savage 99TD in 300sav. Then found out I had shotgun bayonet which I got $150 out of from same guy. My mistake was the 3rd knife was the Cattaurangus GI issue. The leather handle was in terrible shape as was the sheath. I took butt off to remove leather and ended up putting walnut handle on it and selling for $10. I still have the butt pieces, I didn’t use them with wood handle. I have seen Marbel, Pal, Case and other makes of same pattern that govt bought during WW2. They all had good steel in them.
Those butt plates on the originals are kinda complex...
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:29 AM
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Those butt plates on the originals are kinda complex...
If anybody needs the butt pieces to repair their knife they can have them for postage. I’m done fooling with that stuff.
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:56 PM
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Does anybody know where I can get a sheath for mine?

I would like to carry on my belt when camping. A correct sheath would be nice, but anything that works would be ok.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:24 PM
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Since this is a 225Q thread I will not post another picture.

I too, have a Kabar, two in fact. One I carried in the Corps and a WW II Kabar that WW II/Korea USMC Vet carried back then.

AJ bring on the pics. We love all vintage hardware!
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:48 PM
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Does anybody know where I can get a sheath for mine?

I would like to carry on my belt when camping. A correct sheath would be nice, but anything that works would be ok.
Sheathmakers ' ads in, Blade and the big annual, Knives. From the, Gun Digest people. See photos and the lists in the back.
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:54 PM
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AJ bring on the pics. We love all vintage hardware!
Since you asked, here you go.........

The top one I carried on active duty, it is a Kabar. The bottom one was carried by a WW II/Korean War USMC Vet, it is a Camillus.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:27 PM
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The naval aviator on the right has a 225Q on his life-preserver strap. His name is Loyce Edward Deen, KIA in 1945. A very sad, but moving story.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:32 PM
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Interesting to note that the knife sheath is opposite for the 225Q than it is for hunting knives and for the K bars. Mine is the same

If worn on the right hip or on the left hip, a right handed person using their right hand to unsheathe the knife. The sharpened side of the blade would always be up rather than down on the others.

Doesn't seem like a quartermaster draw.

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Old 08-11-2020, 11:53 PM
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Default USN knife by Pal

I hope it isn't bad form to piggyback on to this thread, but it made me remember an old knife I have. It has a metal sheath.
IMG_1123 (1).jpg

It has the "U.S.N." "Mark I" on one side and "RH -35" with an oval in between that says " PAL Made in USA

IMG_1119 (1).jpg
IMG_1120 (1).jpg

This knife was in my father-in-law's toolbox when he died and no other family member had any interest in it at all. I feigned disinterest, but grabbed it quickly.
Any information will be more than I have (although I haven't googled yet).
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bro. Dave View Post
I hope it isn't bad form to piggyback on to this thread, but it made me remember an old knife I have. It has a metal sheath.
Attachment 465279

It has the "U.S.N." "Mark I" on one side and "RH -35" with an oval in between that says " PAL Made in USA

Attachment 465280
Attachment 465281

This knife was in my father-in-law's toolbox when he died and no other family member had any interest in it at all. I feigned disinterest, but grabbed it quickly.
Any information will be more than I have (although I haven't googled yet).

There are several Facebook pages dedicated to various knife enthusiasts. Try Vintage Knife Trader on FB
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:50 PM
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[QUOTE=Jack Flash;140864169]Sure, a whole tool truck would be great to have. While you're at it, throw in a couple of trailers full of spare parts, nuts and bolts, and don't forget coffee and donuts!

But that ignores the haphazard and chaotic conditions encountered during warfare. Guys found themselves having to do all sorts of jobs with only the tools they had on them. In such situations, the 225 Q was a godsend.[/QUOTE]

One, not all, reason the duck bill was replaced by the bird cage on the M-16 was too many guys were popping metal bands on c-rat cases and other things. The main reason given was the "wait a minute vines". Too bad. The duck bill was a much better flash suppressor.

My second 225Q came to me in an old Randall sheath. Now that's the money shot. It is amazing the edge the 225 Q takes. Both are really sharp, and tough. I guess I'll have to take a picture.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:03 PM
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Smile bamacisa

Shortly after WW2, I lived in Meridian, Mississippi. There was a
Western Auto store there and it had the boxes full of new knives that were war surplus. My dad bought two brand new 225Q knives for $2.00 each. I still have both knives. At the time, I did not know anything about them. They are still in good used condition.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:52 PM
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Really cool. I have a Ka-bar, one of the newer ones. Got it like 20 years ago when I was a teen. Goes with me on every camping trip and just last week used it to open a can of beans. Scratched some of the black paint off the blade, but thats ok I got the beans open and now it has more character.
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Old 09-30-2020, 07:42 PM
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$2.00!! I have a book that has lots of old Cattaraugus ads. They were heavy into marketing, as were other manufacturers in those days.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:11 PM
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Just won another very nice Cattaraugus on eBay for $76 shipped. Looks to be in great shape but the leather sheath is tattered and dry rotted.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:24 PM
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Does anybody know where I can get a sheath for mine?

I would like to carry on my belt when camping. A correct sheath would be nice, but anything that works would be ok.
This craftsman, Kaleb, restored my father’s Cattaraugus 225Q sheath very nicely. He makes various sheathes, does good work, and is reasonable: Muskrat Man Knives Home

I see Kaleb has a separate site for leather work now: Possum Hollow Trading - Member Gallery - Leatherworker.net

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Old 10-11-2020, 10:30 PM
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Back some 30 years ago, my dad was at the local hardware store. The proprietor and Pop were on pretty good terms. One day Pop was there and Al, the proprietor, pulled out some big Ka-Bar knives and said to Pop that the knives had somehow gotten wet, which blemished the finishes. With the blemished finishes, Al said he couldn't sell the knives as new, and offered them to Pop for $5 (five bucks) apiece. Pop took a look at them and figured, "I've carried knives that looked worse." He ended up buying at least 3 of the knives and gave one of them to me. I spent an entire afternoon hand sharpening it, but that just proved what quality steel went into the knife. When I sharpened it, the knife stayed sharp. I'll have to dig it out and then figure out who to pass it along to, because I'm never getting rid of it.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Dave View Post
I hope it isn't bad form to piggyback on to this thread, but it made me remember an old knife I have. It has a metal sheath.
Attachment 465279

It has the "U.S.N." "Mark I" on one side and "RH -35" with an oval in between that says " PAL Made in USA

Attachment 465280
Attachment 465281

This knife was in my father-in-law's toolbox when he died and no other family member had any interest in it at all. I feigned disinterest, but grabbed it quickly.
Any information will be more than I have (although I haven't googled yet).

USN deck knife, MK I. Sheath is plastic or rigid fiber.
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Old 05-14-2021, 06:44 AM
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Default Cattaraugus 225Q Frank Trzaska

Someone posted an edited quote from Frank Trzaska, Trzaska was actually dismissing the stupid myth that the Cattaraugus 22Q was a "Quartermaster knife" or a "crate opener" here's the entire quote: "By Frank Trzaska 2004
The Cattaraugus 225Q and the Case 337Q knives have always intrigued me. Perhaps it is
some of the myths that always circulated about them that drew me in. I love the challenge
associated with a knife with a mainly oral history. Very little has been written about the
Q knives in the way of facts. We can find photos of them in just about every theatre of
World War Two being worn by front line fighters yet the myth is that the were issued to
Quartermaster personal for opening crates. Just on the surface it sounds ridiculous that a
knife would be procured for such a use when crowbars had been in inventory for just
such a task. In fact there were even specialized crate opening tools specified for that job
in Quartermaster catalogs. The myth grown up around these knives even has the pommel
as being designed to hammer the nails back into the crates apparently after the wrong box
is opened. It sounds fishy when put into this type of context yet the myth continues to
grow and to spread. Like most good urban legends some fact is always present to make
the myth palatable to the majority of people. In this article we hope to end some of those
urban legends and present the facts associated with the misunderstood and under
appreciated Q knives.
At the start of World War Two it is a known fact that the U.S. forces were woefully under
prepared to wage a war on this large of a scale. In fact a war this large had never been
fought before or for that fact ever since. Many new ventures would be engaged in to meet
the production demands of such a large force. Knives were but one aspect of the new
style war to be fought. It became immediately known that the U.S. forces were short of
cutlery of all types. To meet this demand it was decided to use whatever style could be
put into immediate production. The early Marine Corps Raider knives were nothing more
then Camillus hunting knives quickly popped out and sent to the newly formed group.
Along these same lines the portion of the military tasked with purchasing all types of
supplies was the Quartermaster Corps. The Army had their own Quartermaster Corps as
did the Navy, both of which cooperated but were usually tasked with much different
problems. In this specific task they were both looking for the same type of vendor to
produce an item in great need by all branches of the services. Fast production was needed
so a style of construction was chosen which would lead to little changes needed by the
producing factories. This was a simple matter in choosing a stacked leather handle that
had been in continuous production since at least the turn of the century. Other then that
simple order any six inch bladed hunting knife would do. Our good friend Carter Rila has
made a great distinction between somewhat common words that will come into play with
these knives. He distinguishes the word "type" and "pattern" for just such an occasion. A
“pattern” is a knife made to a specific design, subtle differences are known to exist but
the knife generally follows a pattern. A classic example would be a common USN Mark
2 knife. Made by Ka-Bar, Camillus, Pal and Robeson Shuredge they all look much the
same following a specific pattern. A “type” is a knife purchased for a specific general
task but not following a specific pattern. A classic example of a type is the USN Mark 1
knife. A five-inch bladed hunting knife that will fit a similar scabbard. The first fixed
blade knives procured were of the “type” designation. A six-inch bladed hunting knife
with stacked leather handle. The Pal RH36, the Robeson / U.S.A., the Case 325-6 and the
Queen City knives all fit this designation. Right on the heels of the earliest procurements
the Quartermaster Corps standardized on a design for the six-inch bladed knives and we
find ourselves switching over to a “pattern” knife, the well-known Q knives. We all know
the military likes standardization so it was only a matter of time until this happened.
Designed by the Quartermaster Corps, the Bill of Materials list was number B/M No. TJC7
dated 12/1/1942 the official nomenclature is "Special Hunting Knives, 6", No.225.”
The Bill of Materials for 1000 knives included 904 lbs. of High Carbon hot rolled cutlery
blade steel. Carbon content to be not less the 1.0% while not more the 1.1% (this amounts
to basic 1095) and 211 lbs. cold rolled SAE 1010 steel was called for in the manufacture
of the guards and butt plates. A later Bill of Materials was issued to Case with the knife
designated No.337, we do not know the reason for this change but suspect the change in
handle design. These procurements were handled by the Jefferson City Quartermaster
Depot, which had control over most of the cutleries in the Northeast U.S. We list the
above as absolute proof that the Q knives were Quartermaster designed and procured for
military issue. But you say we already knew that, it is part of that myth you were talking
about. Well we still have more to the story.
Next we move on to contracts. If the knives were officially procured by the military there
must be a trail of contracts to follow. In many cases the factories that made the knives no
longer exist and of those that do, much of the old paperwork was thrown away. They are
not in the history business; they make knives for a living. With that said we managed to
locate a file of all contracts listing purchase over $50,000 dollars. The file, known as the
Alphabetical Listing of Major War Supply Contractors was put out by the Civilian
Production Administration, Industrial Statistics Division. It covers purchases from June
1940 to September 1945 when the huge cancellation order was put into effect. Looking
up Cattaraugus we find they had seven major contracts totaling over $1,238,000.00 for
Hunting Knives. Even at the high price of $1.25 each that would mean over one million
knives were procured from 1942 through 1945 by Cattaraugus alone. Even if every
Quartermaster supply clerk, sewing machine operator, driver and baker had two knives
issued to them it would not have amounted to that total. To think these knives were only
issued to Quartermaster personal is ludicrous. Add to that total two contracts issued to
Case for a total of $295,000.00 we can say with authority that these knives were procured
for general issue to fighting men. The known contracts are as follows listing the item,
contract number, branch, amount, issue date and completion date:
Cattaraugus
Knives 1913QM9627 Army $76,000.00 12/1/1942 6/1/1943
Knives 1913QM10585 Army $76,000.00 1/1/1943 4/1/1943
Knives 1913QM11694 Army $340,000.00 2/1/1943 7/1/1943
Knives 28021QM3029 Army $381,000.00 10/1/1943 6/1/1944
Knives 28021QM11497 Army $110,000.00 3/1/1944 9/1/1944
Knives 28021QM16054 Army $114,000.00 8/1/1944 12/1/1944
Knives 28021QM24308 Army $141,000.00 11/1/1944 6/1/1945
Case
Knives 1913QM11693 Army $213,000.00 2/1/1943 6/1/1943
Knives 189XSX47599 Navy $82,000.00 12/1/1944 6/1/1945
It should also be noted that the Quartermaster Corps did not procure items for sale by the
P.X. system or for the Navy Ships Stores system. Private sales of these contract items
were not an issue; the War Production Board would never have approved this much steel
and labor. Let's face it, the Quartermaster Corps designed these knives for military
procurement and general issue to our fighting forces. Why they were never shown in the
Quartermaster catalogs is a mystery but it does not change the facts.
The first contract we find dated 12/1/1942 with the last one dated 12/1/1944 due for
completion 6/1/1945. With that information we can also state with certainty that the Q
knives were produced for the entire duration of the U.S. involvement in the war. Of all
the contracts cited above, the Navy only assigned one. The Army entered into all the
remaining contracts. It is interesting to note that of the two Case contracts the first, dated
2/1/1943 was for $213,000.00 to the Army while the second contract for $82,000.00 was
entered into by the Navy on 12/1/1944. We are going out on a limb here and speculating,
something I hate to do mind you, but it fits the bill so nice. The more common of the
Case knives found is the one marked "Case XX" while the knife marked "Case" only is
rather uncommon to encounter. Could it be the different contract numbers correlate to the
different markings? Could the "Case XX" knife be from the larger Army contract while
the uncommon “Case” only marked knife from the Navy contract? Not that it would have
been a specific request to change the marking but more of a economic savings if Case
were to use a stamping die they had in use at the time that did not have the “XX” in it.
For the small run of knives it would be safe to say that Case would not have went to the
expense of having a die made if they did not already have one available. Additional
research on the subject is needed to prove just such a fact. Speculate away folks; to me it
is only a theory, yet to be validated through further investigation.
As for the knives themselves they are about the most robust knives ever made for the
military. The myth about opening crates could actually have some truth to it; these knives
are capable of doing it. And the thick pommels are more then capable of driving nails
although a tent peg is much more likely to be struck by the butt. The Cattaraugus consists
of a 1095 steel blade that is 6 inches in length with the knife having an overall length of
10 3/8 inches. The Case knife shares the same blade length but comes in at 10 inches
overall. To my hand the longer Case handle is more comfortable but the Catt is adequate
to do the job. Both knives have a stacked leather washer handle but the finish is very
much different. The typical Catt knife has a smooth leather handle roughed up in the
center section with gouges to the leather for a sure grip. The cutting tool intentionally
applied the gouges; it is not a mistake. The Case knife is finished on a broaching wheel
with 18 circular grooves which produces a much more professional and eye pleasing
result. Both knives allow a good grip surface it’s just that the Case knife looks better. The
pommels of the two knives are quite different. They both have the same dimensions but
the Case knife consists of one large piece of steel while the Catt knife uses three
independent steel disks stacked on top of each other and finished off with two nails
driven through line up holes on the disks into the leather. It is a simple yet ingenious
system to secure the pommel with a minimum amount of trouble and it is extremely
strong. In fact I do not think I have ever seen a Q knife with the pommel broken off. Both
knives have the pommel faces finished off in a waffle pattern. This could have no other
reason that I am aware of other then preventing the pommel from slipping while
hammering. Now whether driving nails or tent pegs you can take your choice but there is
no doubt it was made for hammering.
During the background search for this article I was greatly aided by our esteemed editor
Mark Zalesky who sent me newspaper clippings from the Buffalo Evening News
Magazine. It was a short story on knives made in the area from the many cutleries doing
business in the region. Dated April 7, 1945 it is almost at the end of the war but we were
still battling at the time. In an interview with Mr. J.B.F. Champlin, President of
Cattaraugus Cutlery we find a very curious statement. On the topic of the "Commando
Knives" made there Mr. Champlin states: "Handsome gadgets, men can use them to open
boxes, drive nails, cut throats, open coconuts" and dig foxholes." So here we find the
basis for the myth, or perhaps the truth. While not specifically designed to open boxes the
knives were expected to do just such duty among other things. We also find that Mr.
Champlain’s son Jack, 21 was currently serving in Europe with the Quartermaster Corps.
Coincidence you say? Maybe. They also stated Jack carried a 225Q knife made especially
for him. Now that is a Q knife I would love to see!
Another contact made during the ongoing investigation was Chuck Karwan. Chuck is a
well-known gun and knife writer who had written an article on the Q knives for Knives
98 Annual. I would suggest reading it if you haven’t already. It seems Chuck has a great
appreciation for the Q knives, he lists them among his favorites. What many folks do not
know is Mr. Karwan is a Vietnam combat veteran and continued to serve for many more
years. Chuck has carried many knives in his time in the field and to rank the Q knife up
there as a favorite is a major statement. Mr. Karwan assisted me in the search and
confirmed information from his many service friends on contracting entities.
So that about sums it up for the history on the Q knives for now. We can dispel the myth
that they were private purchase knives, we have contracts to prove otherwise. We can say
with certainty they were for general issue, not just for Quartermaster personal by the
sheer amount of the knives made. We can state as fact these knives were made to a
specific pattern designed by the Quartermaster Corps just like an M3 was made to a
specific pattern designed by the Ordnance Corps from the bill of materials listing. And
last but not least we can point to Mr. JBF Champlin who stated for a 1945 article that the
knives could open boxes and drive nails, perhaps as the beginning of that often told tale.
I never could find a written specification as to "why" the left-handed sheath. The proper
placement of the bayonet on the belt in the uniform of the time was on the left rear
quadrant. The knife was designed to fit this same space hence the orientation of the
sheath.
All the best
Frank Trzaska"
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Old 05-14-2021, 06:56 AM
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You are misquoting Frank Trzaska, not sure why. He was actually making the point that the Cattaraugus 225Q was not a "Quartermaster knife" or a "crate opener" but that the Quartermaster Corps designed these knives for military procurement and general issue to our fighting forces. The Quartermasters had specific tools for opening crates and the ideea that anybody would risk a hole in their fist by hammering nails with a knife pommel is just too idiotic to even comment. Also, would be kinda stupid for General "Dutch" Cota to show up to be decorated by General Bradley with a "crate opener" at his side. [URL="https://www.bobjoketoomuch.com/seriously/2018/6/6/today-i-am-going-to-quit-complaining-about-getting-old-and-this-is-why-bob-kinsloe"]
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Old 05-14-2021, 09:49 AM
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Post 32, USN Aviator. That appears to be a Mark 1 with Wood or Plastic Butt. The Mark 1 was produced by multiple Makers in many, many variations. Standard Navy issue , not that other folks didn’t get some.
That General may be wearing a 225Q, hard to tell.
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRFW View Post
You are misquoting Frank Trzaska, not sure why. He was actually making the point that the Cattaraugus 225Q was not a "Quartermaster knife" or a "crate opener" but that the Quartermaster Corps designed these knives for military procurement and general issue to our fighting forces. The Quartermasters had specific tools for opening crates and the ideea that anybody would risk a hole in their fist by hammering nails with a knife pommel is just too idiotic to even comment. Also, would be kinda stupid for General "Dutch" Cota to show up to be decorated by General Bradley with a "crate opener" at his side. [URL="https://www.bobjoketoomuch.com/seriously/2018/6/6/today-i-am-going-to-quit-complaining-about-getting-old-and-this-is-why-bob-kinsloe"]
Copied and blew up the picture, The knife on Cota's cartridge belt looks to be a 225Q to me. I compared it to the one that I have. Mine has the same looking ridges mid grip and the sheath is shaped the same. Looks the same, but someone will point out that I am wrong shortly.
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:44 PM
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Here’s some ads published in Coles Book III.
The knife companies and others continued to run ads to remind folks they were supplying the War and after the War would restart Civilian production.
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:54 PM
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A friend had bought this one off Ebay a short while ago. He had a sheath made for it as the original was in need of help.
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Old 05-14-2021, 10:26 PM
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Bark River Knives makes a very nice reproduction of these knives, called the "Quartermaster " of course. There are some slight design changes. Here are some pictures of a Quartermaster and a Cattaraugus 225Q side by side.





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Old 05-15-2021, 01:22 AM
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I have several tubs full of US military knives. The usual stuff, Mark 1-2-3's, 6" utility, Western Sharps ect. Have several of these in both Case and Cattaraugus. I never cared for this model for whatever reason, but one Case example is dear to me. It has seen rough use and the pommel is missing. The sheath it what makes this knife. It has dainty carvings on the front and rear of the sheath depicting 3 different owners and 4 different oversea locations. Often it is said about an inanimate object that, "if only this (whatever) could talk". Well this one can and has told its story.
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