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Old 09-16-2020, 02:19 AM
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Default Good-bye HK: The (probable) new German Army rifle

A news item which I thought might interest some folks here:

After several years of controversy over supposed weaknesses of the current HK G-36 standard rifle, the German Defense Ministry today (yesterday) announced the winner of the new contract:

C.G. Haenel of Suhl with their MK552. The semi-auto version CR223 is already in service with some German police units.

HK competed with their HK 416. Of course they've already announced they'll go to court over supposed issues with the selection.


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Old 09-16-2020, 05:04 AM
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Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:26 AM
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Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?
CR 223 | C.G. Haenel GmbH
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:54 AM
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Here is some more info
250 million euro deal: new assault rifle of the German Armed Forces and successor to the G36 to be supplied by C.G. Haenel – All info and background. | all4shooters

and a "test" from the civil (=semi-auto) rifle
Test: Haenel CR-223 semi-automatic competition rifle | all4shooters

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Perhaps also interesting (Sorry, only in German language)
Haenel gegen Heckler & Koch: Bundeswehrauftrag f"ur Haenel aus Th"uringen - DER SPIEGEL
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:58 AM
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Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?
Sure appears to be.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:33 AM
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:34 AM
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Default wartime CG Haenel manufacture

Sorry for a little thread drift, but once had a 41 byf (Mauser) Luger that was a "bring back" in prima condition, all matching #'s.

The collectors in those days called my Luger a "Black Widow" because of its black plastic grips (type 6 for you Luger collectors) and the black plastic magazine base. The magazine was unnumbered, and proofed fxo with Eagle 37 which denoted early war manufacture by CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany.

So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:58 AM
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Sorry for a little thread drift, but once had a 41 byf (Mauser) Luger that was a "bring back" in prima condition, all matching #'s.

The collectors in those days called my Luger a "Black Widow" because of its black plastic grips (type 6 for you Luger collectors) and the black plastic magazine base. The magazine was unnumbered, and proofed fxo with Eagle 37 which denoted early war manufacture by CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany.

So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.
CG Haenel, Waffen.u.Fahrradfabrik, Suhl, Germany was in East Germany so no US $ until the wall came down if then.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:33 AM
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....
So......still around after pushing 80 years, maybe (probably) rebuilt factory with all modern equipment right after the war, thanks to US $.
The old pre-1945 Haenel factory in Suhl actually became part of the “Ernst Thälmann“ complex of state-owned East German gun works, best known here for manufacturing the East German Makarov version.
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Old 09-16-2020, 11:29 AM
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Is this similar to the AR15/ M-16 in construction and functioning?
It's a short-stroke piston gun rather than the Stoner gas system.
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:50 PM
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It's a short-stroke piston gun rather than the Stoner gas system.
Thanks for the information. Fluent in German?
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Old 09-16-2020, 02:34 PM
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Wow. Modern military rifles are just as ugly as most modern handguns.
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Old 09-16-2020, 04:12 PM
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On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:14 PM
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I wondered if it would use a conventional gas piston. Good idea to drop the direct impingement (Lgungmen-Stoner) gas operation for a more conventional gas piston. While the direct impingement system is very reliable, dumping gas directly into the action results in a lot of cleaning and eventual carbon build up.

At one point in the early 2,000s my unit was to convert our M4A1 uppers to a gas piston design, but numerous post 9-11 hits to the budget cancelled that conversion.

Regarding the G36, I once trained and shot with a Spanish Army team who liked their G36 weapons.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:52 PM
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Thanks for the information. Fluent in German?
Nope, one of the links in another thread had the info in English.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:59 PM
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I wondered if it would use a conventional gas piston. Good idea to drop the direct impingement (Lgungmen-Stoner) gas operation for a more conventional gas piston. While the direct impingement system is very reliable, dumping gas directly into the action results in a lot of cleaning and eventual carbon build up.

At one point in the early 2,000s my unit was to convert our M4A1 uppers to a gas piston design, but numerous post 9-11 hits to the budget cancelled that conversion.

Regarding the G36, I once trained and shot with a Spanish Army team who liked their G36 weapons.
I'll take Ljungman/MAS 49 style of direct impingement over Stoner's interpretation any day in a 5.56 weapon. Stoner's system is clever in that it keeps the forces in line with the bore, but in downsizing it from the AR-10 to 5.56 NATO the components got smaller while the crud that jams up guns stayed the same size.

The Ljungman/MAS 49 system only dumps gas into a recess in the bolt carrier instead of mixing it around the bolt/carrier interfaces like Stoner.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:18 PM
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On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?
I asked somebody I know who has connections in the Bunderwehr about the G36 issues. He reckoned that the G36 had been known to be a dog for some time, but much like our own procurement process, getting some of those in charge to admit they bought a pup can be difficult. There was also strong resistance to buying a "quick fix" replacement like (shudder) the M4. Not designed by a German? Made largely by a Belgian company (FN)? Nope, that wasn't happening.

No doubt H&K will appeal the decision, and reading the specs of the different weapons, Haenel MK 556, HK 416 and HK 433, you have to wonder what the deciding factor might be.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:47 PM
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Keymod? I would have thought that M-Lok would have been a better choice these days.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post
On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?
With that thinking the U S military would still be using flintlocks, after all, we whipped the British with them.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post
On good, another boring AR-15 style rifle to replace an otherwise perfectly functional rifle which only has issues that manifest under extreme conditions which have never once occurred in the field during its entire life in military service.

Truly the best replacement made by any military since the U.S. Military decided to replace the Beretta M9 with the SIG M17.

Honestly though, why? Why do military forces across the globe waste money by replacing firearms which have served them well for decades, that their personel is already familiar with, and it would be much cheaper to just stick with the same platform and request any changes/upgrades are deemed necessary, especially when the new weapon they choose isn't really much of a tangible upgrade to the last to begin with?
Your post says it all for me. Yet they continue on. Russia is getting the AK-12 which looks like an AK-74 with improved furniture. The Marines are getting the HK. None of these rifles seem like a dramatic step forward to me. People keep complaining about how terrible .22 caliber service rounds are but armies keep issuing them. I guess these changes give the sense of progress.

I read that the U.S. Army is working on plastic cased ammo in a larger caliber. I hope they don't screw this up and get American soldiers killed over it.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:33 AM
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I served during the Cold War in a West German Panzergrenadier unit, as one of the elite combat forces, we shot twice as much as regular military and had the HK G3 as the standard issued rifle. When the G3 was replaced with the G36 it was issued to a different generation of Germans, people that had grown up resenting guns and were less exposed to them. A battle rifle in .308/7.62x51 with steel sights is a whole lot harder to shoot than a .223/5.56 with optics - and it showed in qualifications.
Much more soldiers qualified with the G36 the first time than with the G3 because it is easier to shoot with the optics. So the change to the G36 is making sense to me. As someone who did house-to-house training in Hammelburg and had to scale fences, climb through windows and so on, I learnt to prefer a lighter, shorter rifle.

I shot the G36 in reserve matches for years and found it absolutely adequate for the job and we did not experience the inacceptable inaccuracy that stems from the barrel being anchored in plastic when the gun is getting extremely hot, either from desert sun or long strings of full auto. I have to admit, we never used them a lot in full auto to begin with, only to burn through the rest of an ammo case at the end of the day.

In tests, the G36 was fired 200 rounds full auto with rapid mag changesand then tested for accuracy. That is where it was found to be inaccurate. The Rheinmetall MG3 was issued with a spare barrel and an asbestos glove and after 150 rounds of rapid full auto, we used the glove to change the barrel to avoid inaccuracy and damage to the barrel. Why was the standard for the G36 different than for the MG3, which was designed for full auto???

That MG3 is also going to be replaced with an easier to shoot light machinegun and already in the last decade fewer and fewer soldiers were MG3 certified.

No change to another weapon will bring the miracles that an incapable and clueless leadership, especially Uschi von der Leyen, is hoping for.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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I served during the Cold War in a West German Panzergrenadier unit, as one of the elite combat forces, we shot twice as much as regular military and had the HK G3 as the standard issued rifle. When the G3 was replaced with the G36 it was issued to a different generation of Germans, people that had grown up resenting guns and were less exposed to them. A battle rifle in .308/7.62x51 with steel sights is a whole lot harder to shoot than a .223/5.56 with optics - and it showed in qualifications.
Much more soldiers qualified with the G36 the first time than with the G3 because it is easier to shoot with the optics. So the change to the G36 is making sense to me. As someone who did house-to-house training in Hammelburg and had to scale fences, climb through windows and so on, I learnt to prefer a lighter, shorter rifle.

I shot the G36 in reserve matches for years and found it absolutely adequate for the job and we did not experience the inacceptable inaccuracy that stems from the barrel being anchored in plastic when the gun is getting extremely hot, either from desert sun or long strings of full auto. I have to admit, we never used them a lot in full auto to begin with, only to burn through the rest of an ammo case at the end of the day.

In tests, the G36 was fired 200 rounds full auto with rapid mag changesand then tested for accuracy. That is where it was found to be inaccurate. The Rheinmetall MG3 was issued with a spare barrel and an asbestos glove and after 150 rounds of rapid full auto, we used the glove to change the barrel to avoid inaccuracy and damage to the barrel. Why was the standard for the G36 different than for the MG3, which was designed for full auto???

That MG3 is also going to be replaced with an easier to shoot light machinegun and already in the last decade fewer and fewer soldiers were MG3 certified.

No change to another weapon will bring the miracles that an incapable and clueless leadership, especially Uschi von der Leyen, is hoping for.
I've served on the G3 and the MG3 as well and I can only somewhat agree.

I loved the G3 and once you've found POA/POI you were good to go out to 400m. And even further if they would have let you but everything past 400 is for the machine gun to pick up. That's how we were trained.

The G36 is one ugly brick, only brought to life because of NATO but mainly because of the U.S. and the fact that many other countries used 5.56mm.

I can't speak for my whole generation but I'd prefer the heavy metal iron sight G3 over any 5.56 rifle.

I also remember the MG3 and the barrel changing process, it's great if you start the drill and didn't make sure you have the glove.... so your jacket it is (or whatever you can find). Good stuff, heavy metal machine gun in 7.62 with a felt 50lbs trigger pull. But nothing beats shooting that thing, mounted on a UNIMOG at night fire with tracer rounds.

And here's the link to the new gun;

MK 556 | C.G. Haenel GmbH

I don't care much anymore but I'm sure glad they got rid of the 36.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:30 AM
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The main thing about the HK G3 was, of course, that the German Army never used it in battle

I never liked the thing and was happy to trade it in for an Uzi after basic, which luckily was standard issue for my assigned function.

The G36’s perceived issues, which kept journalists, politicians, and “experts” (not so much the soldiers) entertained for years, emerged when German troops actually went into a real war for the first time, and in Afghanistan of all places, where conditions resembled Rommel’s African campaign more than the green pastures of Northern Europe for which they had trained.


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Old 09-17-2020, 11:32 AM
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I too used the HK(made by us under license) G3. It was adopted in 1961. And only now is being replaced by the FN SCAR.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:09 PM
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The main thing about the HK G3 was, of course, that the German Army never used it in battle

I never liked the thing and was happy to trade it in for an Uzi after basic, which luckily was standard issue for my assigned function.

The G36’s perceived issues, which kept journalists, politicians, and “experts” (not so much the soldiers) entertained for years, emerged when German troops actually went into a real war for the first time, and in Afghanistan of all places, where conditions resembled Rommel’s African campaign more than the green pastures of Northern Europe for which they had trained.

Agreed, I don't think it has been tested enough under those conditions.... big money, contracts and deadlines are far more important than soldiers lives!

However, I didn't hear anything bad about the 36s performance in Kosovo. But then again, I'm not important.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:28 PM
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The main thing about the HK G3 was, of course, that the German Army never used it in battle

I never liked the thing and was happy to trade it in for an Uzi after basic, which luckily was standard issue for my assigned function.
Not me personally(I arrived too late). But our Army used the G3 in battle, Extensively, I might add from 1961 to 1974/5 in 3 simultaneous war theaters in Africa. It was well liked, and did it's job well.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:20 PM
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I asked somebody I know who has connections in the Bunderwehr about the G36 issues. He reckoned that the G36 had been known to be a dog for some time, but much like our own procurement process, getting some of those in charge to admit they bought a pup can be difficult. There was also strong resistance to buying a "quick fix" replacement like (shudder) the M4. Not designed by a German? Made largely by a Belgian company (FN)? Nope, that wasn't happening.

No doubt H&K will appeal the decision, and reading the specs of the different weapons, Haenel MK 556, HK 416 and HK 433, you have to wonder what the deciding factor might be.
Really? Wow, I've really only ever heard good things about the G36, but then again, practically nobody Stateside actually owns one since they cannot be legally imported into the United States, (Thanks, Gun Control Act!) ergo the only folks who can really speak of them are foreign soldiers who most likely have little to no experience with other rifles.

Personally, I'll never be capable of grasping the concept of being so patriotic that you're actually willing to sacrifice combat effectiveness and by extension, the military's ability to defend your nation because you just cannot bear the thought of adopting a foreign-made firearm.
Fortunately, the U.S. Military obviously isn't like that.

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With that thinking the U S military would still be using flintlocks, after all, we whipped the British with them.
Forgive me, I wasn't aware that the SIG M17 was so much more technologically advanced compared to the Beretta M9A3 that it was like the difference between a Flitlock and a Percussion Cap Revolver.

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Your post says it all for me. Yet they continue on. Russia is getting the AK-12 which looks like an AK-74 with improved furniture. The Marines are getting the HK. None of these rifles seem like a dramatic step forward to me. People keep complaining about how terrible .22 caliber service rounds are but armies keep issuing them. I guess these changes give the sense of progress.

I read that the U.S. Army is working on plastic cased ammo in a larger caliber. I hope they don't screw this up and get American soldiers killed over it.
Oh, boy... Don't even get me started on the U.S. Military's ongoing attempt to replace the 5.56x45 NATO.

My favorite part is how various branches of the U.S. Military have collaborated with cartridge companies and/or funded the development of three different cartridges intended to replace 5.56 NATO, (The .300 AAC Blackout, .458 SOCOM, and 6.8 Remington SPC) yet none of them have been adopted.

If 5.56 NATO were as ineffective as they say it is, then it would have been replaced by now. Don't get me wrong, I know that 5.56 NATO is no powerhouse and has failed on occasion to reliably put down a threat, but if it were as grossly ineffective as some claim it to be, then nobody would use it anymore. PERIOD.
Obviously the U.S. Military isn't shy about spending money to upgrade the equipment, so I doubt it has anything to do with the expense of adopting new ammunition, especially when all three of the aforementioned cartridges were designed with the M4A3 in mind.

I strongly doubt that plastic cased ammunition will ever be viable. It's based upon the fundamentally flawed concept of cases which are strong enough to be fired safely once, but cannot safely be reloaded and fired so that insurgents or enemy combatants cannot reload the cases. The problem is, not even expensive, impact-resistant polymers used for the frames of firearms can hold up to the pressures of firing a single handgun cartridge without failing. Honestly, think of the KABOOMs that destroyed Glock 22 frames just because the barrels didn't provide adequate chamber support, and that was with the .40 S&W cartridge, which is hardly the highest pressure pistol cartridge, so how on Earth do they expect to make cases out of thin polymer for rifle cartridges, if the impact-resistant bulky polymer frames of a Glock 22 could even withstand the intermediate chamber pressures of .40 S&W?
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:38 PM
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"If 5.56 NATO were as ineffective as they say it is, then it would have been replaced by now. Don't get me wrong, I know that 5.56 NATO is no powerhouse and has failed on occasion to reliably put down a threat, but if it were as grossly ineffective as some claim it to be, then nobody would use it anymore. PERIOD.
Obviously the U.S. Military isn't shy about spending money to upgrade the equipment, so I doubt it has anything to do with the expense of adopting new ammunition, especially when all three of the aforementioned cartridges were designed with the M4A3 in mind."

This is my thinking also. My father and his buddies carried M16s in Vietnam. To a man they praised the rifle and cartridge. You would think it pretty obvious that chopping the barrel down to 14.5" with a cartridge that depends on velocity to be effective was a bad idea.

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Old 09-17-2020, 01:38 PM
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Probably an evolution of the Carcal 816.

The Carcal 816 was designed by the same team that designed the HK 416.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:55 PM
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Probably an evolution of the Carcal 816.

The Carcal 816 was designed by the same team that designed the HK 416.
That is correct and points to another delicate issue being discussed in German media:

C.G. Haenel is now, just like Caracal International, a subsidiary of EDGE, a defense industries conglomerate wholly owned by the United Arab Emirates.

We’re all friends now and all that, but there have been snide remarks about the Bundeswehr’s new “Arab rifle” ....
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:11 PM
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The Krauts probably could have saved a boat ton of money just buying kits and lowers from Palmetto State Armory and letting the Bundeswehr boys build them while celebrating Oktoberfest at their favorite hofbrau haus!!
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Old 09-17-2020, 04:33 PM
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Avoiding the purchase of foreign made weapons is a likely national security issue for any nation. Anything that chokes off deliveries or could do so is a big fat hairy deal.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:14 PM
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I always liked the H&K 93 myself, but I guess I am old school.

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Old 09-17-2020, 06:23 PM
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Most military contracts have a clause or language requiring the weapon/design to be manufactured domestically.

The Beretta 92 is a great example. If memory serves me, after the first year following adoption, Beretta had to have a facility in the US producing the M9 for the US military.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:33 PM
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Avoiding the purchase of foreign made weapons is a likely national security issue for any nation. Anything that chokes off deliveries or could do so is a big fat hairy deal.
Nationalism has a lot to do with it too.

Read the story of the T48 (FAL) vs. the T44 (M14) sometime.

The best candidate doesn't always win.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:47 PM
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I wondered if it would use a conventional gas piston. Good idea to drop the direct impingement (Lgungmen-Stoner) gas operation for a more conventional gas piston. While the direct impingement system is very reliable, dumping gas directly into the action results in a lot of cleaning and eventual carbon build up.
My AR-180, also a Stoner design, has a pushrod short-stroke piston design. I guess Stoner figured out that venting gas into the bolt was counterproductive to cleaning and extended functioning.

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Old 09-17-2020, 08:03 PM
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........I can't speak for my whole generation but I'd prefer the heavy metal iron sight G3 over any 5.56 rifle.
Although I'm a generation earlier, I agree. Thing is a lot heavier now than when I got it. Joe

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Old 09-17-2020, 08:50 PM
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Nationalism has a lot to do with it too.

Read the story of the T48 (FAL) vs. the T44 (M14) sometime.

The best candidate in the most suitable caliber doesn't always win.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:54 PM
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I always liked most of the rifles and pistols HK made and Sig rifles seem to be excellent also so I'm quite surprised Germany picked a copy of our M16/M4 that MANY Americans harshly criticized for its first 40 years of military service.

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Old 09-17-2020, 10:56 PM
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I always liked most of the rifles and pistols HK made and Sig rifles seem to be excellent also so I'm quite surprised Germany picked a copy of our M16/M4 that MANY Americans harshly criticized for its first 40 years of military service.
It's not a copy. It uses a short stroke gas piston system in operation that fixes the "poops where it eats" issue of the M16/M4.

Now, if you want to complain about the wisdom of shooting 5.56 NATO from short barrels, I'll back you up.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:57 PM
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The Krauts probably could have saved a boat ton of money just buying kits and lowers from Palmetto State Armory and letting the Bundeswehr boys build them while celebrating Oktoberfest at their favorite hofbrau haus!!
This reminds me of a funny anecdote from my work. I can't go into any detail, but I was assessing a foreign unit we train with and they said something about waiting on their annual ammo delivery. I asked what he meant, and it turned out the ENTIRE MILITARY for that small nation bought its ammo from one gun store in the US, and they hadn't made the purchase for that year yet.

Later it occurred to me that they probly get a much better price on bullets than we do...
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:46 PM
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The fetishism about the "dirty" operation of the DI Stoner design is overblown by a lot. Much of that fetish comes from the historical problems of much older platforms in the US military (1800s), when shooting black powder and other factors contributing to a much different need for cleanliness. That ingrained history also contributes to the socialization of recruits as part of training to become part of the military. That serves its own purpose, but is not a technically valid basis for the cleaning fetish.

However, Pat Rogers, with both military (retired CW2 USMCR) and LE (retired Sgt., NYPD) and a lot of instructor time (he saw who knows how many rounds go downrange from ARs as an instructor, probably well over a million), was critical of the fetish and regularly demonstrated that if that kept wet, a quality AR would work for many thousands of rounds without problems. I don't know how many rounds "Filthy 14" alone had without cleaning, but it was over 40K. I took about 10 different class with Pat, and I saw his teaching about the reality on the range. Quality ARs, using good ammo and magazines and generously lubed simply did not malfunction.

If you have to clean it, it is maybe a 5-8 minutes process. Run a couple of wet patches down the barrel, follow with a dry one; take another couple wet patches and wipe off the BCG and related areas, lube it up, and drive on. It took me a bit longer because I was inefficient.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:04 AM
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The fetishism about the "dirty" operation of the DI Stoner design is overblown by a lot. Much of that fetish comes from the historical problems of much older platforms in the US military (1800s), when shooting black powder and other factors contributing to a much different need for cleanliness. That ingrained history also contributes to the socialization of recruits as part of training to become part of the military. That serves its own purpose, but is not a technically valid basis for the cleaning fetish.

However, Pat Rogers, with both military (retired CW2 USMCR) and LE (retired Sgt., NYPD) and a lot of instructor time (he saw who knows how many rounds go downrange from ARs as an instructor, probably well over a million), was critical of the fetish and regularly demonstrated that if that kept wet, a quality AR would work for many thousands of rounds without problems. I don't know how many rounds "Filthy 14" alone had without cleaning, but it was over 40K. I took about 10 different class with Pat, and I saw his teaching about the reality on the range. Quality ARs, using good ammo and magazines and generously lubed simply did not malfunction.

If you have to clean it, it is maybe a 5-8 minutes process. Run a couple of wet patches down the barrel, follow with a dry one; take another couple wet patches and wipe off the BCG and related areas, lube it up, and drive on. It took me a bit longer because I was inefficient.
CAVEAT: I have a fired several hundred rounds thru a military M4 in training and I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I am not a SOF guy and have never employed a firearm in anger.

However, I work with SOF guys who saw lots of action in the Middle East. At one point, I was BSing with a SEAL and Green Beret about buying an AR. I said I was planning to get one without a forward assist because it seemed silly. They looked at each other and each of them said they had issues during firefights where the bolt failed to close and they hit the forward assist. These were guns that were used hard and cleaned little during the height of the war, so maybe it was "user error" because they hadn't maintained their weapons. But it appears to be a common issue since two operators who had never deployed together had the same problem.

I like to think that I would have maintained my weapon better, but these guys were very busy and it's easy to imagine that sleep was more important to them than weapon maintenance. I know during my deployments I was worked to the bone and fell into bed most nights.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:00 PM
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Up-date
...or: The last(?) News
Sturmgewehr der Bundeswehr: Verteidigungsministerium zieht Auftrag f"ur Haenel zur"uck | MDR.DE

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Old 10-09-2020, 12:14 PM
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So H&K did file a complaint about patent infringement and SECDEF stopped the purchase order.

Sounds like a clusterf*** and SNAFU but whatever. Looks like to me the company with the bigger bank account wins. Wanna bet?
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:12 PM
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I'd love to know what super whizz-bang gadget Haenel are supposed to have ripped off within the design of what is basically a piston AR.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:27 PM
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I got rid of my Spanish Cetme G3 because of the charging handle. I hated it. But it was very accurate.
The swedish designed ljungman and Egyptian hakim I like much better. The 8 mm hakim is a beast.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:35 PM
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[sarcasm]

This new gun shoots bullets? Real bullets? Not rubber bands?? Are you sure this is the same "Germany" that has been run by Angela Merkel for 15 years?? That same "Germany"?? At least the gun isn't all Black like that evil, deadly M-16 -- that would frighten Merkel's newly-arrived constituents, who must be treated with kid gloves.

[/sarcasm]



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Old 10-09-2020, 02:49 PM
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I'd love to know what super whizz-bang gadget Haenel are supposed to have ripped off within the design of what is basically a piston AR.
I read the team that designed Haenal's offering previously designed the HK416.

I guess those guys move around.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:53 PM
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I read the team that designed Haenal's offering previously designed the HK416.

I guess those guys move around.
Indeed, but what makes the 416 so special compared to the other piston ARs? There is only so much you can do with a short-stroke piston design.
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