IVER JOHNSON .38 SW

OLDSTER · #1 09-17-2020, 08:04 AM

I don't own a top break revolver, but would like one. A local guy has this neat little Iver Johnson .38 SW for sale. At $225, I'm tempted to buy it ( pretty sure $200 would get it). I've looked it over; screws look good, excellent bore, smooth action, locks up tight, no rust or pitting, and perfect grips. But is $200 too much ? Thank you in advance for any comments/advice.

Drm50 · #2 09-17-2020, 08:58 AM

$225 is way out of the ball park for gun in your post. Personally I wouldn’t give $50 for it but at shows guns like this are $100. H&R and IJ top breaks are common in these parts. Beware buying them that they are 100% functional and tight. They are miserable to work on. I get them thrown in on trades often, 32s & 38s. The 22s in nice condition will bring more. There are hundreds of them out there but shipping and transfer fees puts them mostly in local sales.

Pisgah · #3 09-17-2020, 09:11 AM

I bought a pristine nickeled IJ last fall at a gun show for $100. Really don't believe it had ever been fired. $225? No, thanks.

old tanker · #4 09-17-2020, 10:48 AM

I rather like Iver Johnsons. They were quite innovative. Iver Johnson's "Hammer-the-Hammer" transfer bar safety system was introduced in 1893. I-J was selling "drop safe" revolvers decades ahead of any comparable innovation by the competition.

Colt did not introduce their internal hammer block safety until 1907 with the Police and Pocket Positives.

Smith started installing a hammer block in 1914 that depended on spring action to move into the blocking position. Rust or congealed grease could prevent it from functioning correctly. After a fatal accident aboard a Navy ship the current style hammer block was added in 1944. It is positive in action in both directions and the source of the S in serial numbers at the time.

That is a Third Model, proofed for smokeless, coil springs, and in the less common for I-J, blue finish. (Nickel was standard) Assuming it is mechanically sound, I'd likely go 175 bucks. If were to be the six shot .32 S&W long version made on that frame size, I'd have been out the door with it at that price.

Krogen · #5 09-17-2020, 11:26 AM

Good points on the value of these critters! I have one, though, that's priceless. Not for sale at any price. It's nickel, mostly, and loose as a goose. I've never fired it. I not brave enough except maybe from the other side of a tree with string on the trigger. Might be worth $2 for scrap metal value. Maybe.

It was Grandpa's. He carried it with him when he moved from Minnesota to homestead in Montana. Who knows what stories that revolver could tell? As we say, "if only it could talk." Just holding it spurs all sorts of thoughts about where it's been. It's a connection to my past.

Nope. Not for sale at any price.

BMur · #6 09-17-2020, 11:41 AM

I agree with Old Tanker,

You have to know what you are looking at just like with any other Antique/Modern firearm.

Iver Johnson/Johnson & Bye opened their business with the 1873 patented early Defender/Tycoon/Favorite series spur trigger revolvers. So there are "many" antique & modern collectables manufactured by that company of early or late.

To begin with, You have to be able to identify or differentiate between an "Antique" and "Modern" example.

Several rules of thumb here. First is the grips. the Owl head must be slanted to the side to be "possibly" in the Antique Range. If the owls head is straight? It's modern. (See photo)

2nd, look at the barrel address. Early patent stamps are proof positive of Antique production. (See photo).

The model 1 has a side latch on the barrel catch. Then there is the "Swift" model (Worth a lot) and the early hammerless 38 with bulldog grips (Worth a lot). Any model 1 in 32 or 38 caliber is (Worth a lot). These are all pre-1899 models and collectors pay a lot for them if functioning and in nice shape. The model 1 bicycle guns (see photo) are (worth a lot) now and are very collectable.

I'm only touching on the subject. It's broad and because some folks see them "ALL" as junk? I've made a killing over the years....So, keep labeling them junk "Please".

Murph

Ivan the Butcher · #7 09-17-2020, 11:54 AM

I have several IJ & HR top breaks. I have both the hammer and hammerless models. Their hammerless do not have the "Lemon Squeezer" grip safety, and are far more affordable than the 1896 S&W's!

My best friend taught me to carry a short barreled (3" or less) in a loose cotton work glove with the barrel down the index finger. You could just pick up the glove and all and pull the trigger through the glove. This rode on the seat or dash during late night service call (before we had CCW). Another good location for a "Glove Gun" is on the tool tray, who notices a work glove?

With proper diameter bullets (.361") the 38 S&W is a very accurate round, even out of short barrels with pits. I have loaded pure lead wadcutter bullets to the standard RN overall length. The soft lead and slow velocity allowed the .357 bullets to fill the rifling (obturate) and were great performers on Raccoons, groundhogs, rats and other "Pests!"

The price of guns varies so much, it is hard to determine a good price. You can never pay too much, just buy it too soon at that price. I'm thinking $200 is still 25 to 50 years too soon! BUT, the wording of gun laws or even sport rules could allow that to become a valuable tool, or complete junk tomorrow! (SASS shooters like those top break 38's for side matches!) BTW, There is a common holster rig for those top breaks, where the holster is built into you suspenders! I have one for derringers and have used it with business suites several times!

Ivan

old tanker · #8 09-17-2020, 02:04 PM

It is great fun to load up .38 S&W cartridges with black powder and take my little Safety Hammerless to the range. Twelve grains of Goex 3F pushes a 146 grain Lyman 358246 cast bullet about 680 fps. Not all that shabby from an easily pocketable snubby. It's probably enough to "leave a mark" and you can escape behind the smoke.

It is fun to tease Glock guys when they notice the trigger safety and proclaim, "It's got a trigger like a Glock."

I like point out the Iver Johnson was built in 1896, a hundred years before they recycled two liter bottles for his gun.

old tanker · #9 09-17-2020, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I agree with Old Tanker,

You have to know what you are looking at just like with any other Antique/Modern firearm.

Iver Johnson/Johnson & Bye opened their business with the 1873 patented early Defender/Tycoon/Favorite series spur trigger revolvers. So there are "many" antique & modern collectables manufactured by that company of early or late.

Murph

Don't forget the Iver Johnson .32s with the Bourne Knuckle Duster

These were serialized in their own series starting at 1 and the knuckle duster is serialized to the gun. According to Goforth's book on Iver Johnson the highest number he observed was 7400 so it is likely there are a few more than that that were made but probably not many. These aren't encountered that often and seven or eight thousand guns is a pretty small fraction of all the IJ's that were produced back then.

Like to find one of these that it doesn't take a wheelbarrow full of money to buy!

BMur · #10 09-17-2020, 03:10 PM

Wow Tanker,
You have some rare stuff. That snub hammerless is very hard to find. I have one just like it in an H&R 38. I don't know how many they made but not many that's for sure!

Also, the Bourne knuckler that they actually argued wasn't a knuckler but for target use or better grip? did you read that? It's true. I guess they were trying to hide the fact that it's a knuckler device? I don't know but I always thought that was comical. I suppose by the 1905ish era that they produced these, the knuckler was considered a no no? I don't know. But rare bird for sure.

I have one in my collection but it's in really bad shape. I still like it a lot because they are near impossible to find! One of my many restoration projects.

Let me look through my patents and see if I have a copy of that one...I'll post it if I do.

Murph

BMur · #11 09-17-2020, 03:39 PM

Here ya go Tanker,
Notice in the original Patent drawing not only is it on an H&R frame? It's also called a Pistol Grip. The inventor describes it clearly as an improvement in the grip for the shooter.

It definitely is an improvement and provides a solid grip on the handle but "Come on now".....It's a knuckler! Bill Goforth calls it a knuckler in his book so there is definite history to this device. Probably worth researching. I've never gone beyond the patent research but I'm sure it was used as a knuckler. Even the inventor describes the device as to "prevent" the gun from being knocked out of the hand. So it's a fighting device, clearly.

I mean, right around the same time they had that Knife blade under the barrel? What was that? A tooth pick?

Murph

nutsforsmiths · #12 09-19-2020, 10:30 PM

I like IJ and H&R top breaks too, but the asking price of that one is way too high. I paid $150 for the nickel IJ in the middle group of two about a year ago.

Below are some of the IJ top breaks I own. Top one is a 1st model in 38 S&W, which is quite rare. Next one down is a 32 S&W 1st model with a non stardard 4" barrel. Next two are 2nd models in 38 S&W. Note the owl on all these grips and also the cylinders are free wheeling on these, unlike yours that has the cylinder stop notch. Bottom is a U.S. Revolver Company hammerless in 32. IJ sold U.S. Revolver Co. through mail order only.

Marshwheeling · #13 09-20-2020, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

I agree with Old Tanker,

You have to know what you are looking at just like with any other Antique/Modern firearm.

Iver Johnson/Johnson & Bye opened their business with the 1873 patented early Defender/Tycoon/Favorite series spur trigger revolvers. So there are "many" antique & modern collectables manufactured by that company of early or late.

To begin with, You have to be able to identify or differentiate between an "Antique" and "Modern" example.

Several rules of thumb here. First is the grips. the Owl head must be slanted to the side to be "possibly" in the Antique Range. If the owls head is straight? It's modern. (See photo)

2nd, look at the barrel address. Early patent stamps are proof positive of Antique production. (See photo).

The model 1 has a side latch on the barrel catch. Then there is the "Swift" model (Worth a lot) and the early hammerless 38 with bulldog grips (Worth a lot). Any model 1 in 32 or 38 caliber is (Worth a lot). These are all pre-1899 models and collectors pay a lot for them if functioning and in nice shape. The model 1 bicycle guns (see photo) are (worth a lot) now and are very collectable.

I'm only touching on the subject. It's broad and because some folks see them "ALL" as junk? I've made a killing over the years....So, keep labeling them junk "Please".

Murph

This is a bit off topic, but the idea of a bicycle gun still has some appeal. Minneapolis is a big bicycle town. It has a fairly recently-developed crosstown route that follows a sunken rail bed and has become a magnet for muggers.

I don’t think a lot of that cycling crowd is carrying guns on their bikes, but they sure should.

tops · #14 09-20-2020, 06:48 AM

[QUOTE=OLDSTER;140903568 But is $200 too much ?

[/QUOTE]

How bad do you want it? How important is $200. too you?

Larry

merl67 · #15 09-20-2020, 04:04 PM

I would not spend $200 on that when you could have a S&W topbreak for that amount. Here is one example.

BMur · #16 09-20-2020, 09:55 PM

Very nice gun Randy,
It's unfortunate that the $200 price tag can not be had all over our country. NO way you'd find that price on the West Coast for that puppy. Not even if lady luck was shining on you, you supported a great line of BS, and the wind was at your back!

However, the blatant bias on Iver Johnsons seems to be Nation Wide I've found. Especially, when talking about legitimate antiques. It's not difficult to find them very cheap and in turn to find another collector that is willing to pay a lot more for them because they understand the rarity involved. That to me represents a solid Market.

Murph

Redcoat3340 · #17 09-24-2020, 04:45 AM

If your heart is set on a 38S&W top break I'd recommend a couple that you might be happier with:
S&W "Perfected" It's a top break with a cylinder release. Ya gotta manipulate both to open it. It's a "modern" gun and quite safe with modern ammo.

Two H&Rs: one is the "Defender." It was made for factory guards at WWII defense plants. The other is a "snub" H&R 925 (see picture).

Ya gotta do a bit of hunting for them, but you should find one around. I paid $340 for my Perfected; $240 for my 925 and 275 for the Defender. All three are a lot more gun than the $200 they want for the Iver Johnson.

Drm50 · #18 09-24-2020, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcoat3340

If your heart is set on a 38S&W top break I'd recommend a couple that you might be happier with:
S&W "Perfected" It's a top break with a cylinder release. Ya gotta manipulate both to open it. It's a "modern" gun and quite safe with modern ammo.

Two H&Rs: one is the "Defender." It was made for factory guards at WWII defense plants. The other is a "snub" H&R 925 (see picture).

Ya gotta do a bit of hunting for them, but you should find one around. I paid $340 for my Perfected; $240 for my 925 and 275 for the Defender. All three are a lot more gun than the $200 they want for the Iver Johnson.

At $240 & $340 you are getting into price of a lot better guns unless you are infatuated with top breaks as collector piece. There are certain models of IJ & other top breaks that are scarce and rare but bulk of them are what used to be called Saturday Night Specials- hotter than a $3 pistol type. I don’t know about West Coast prices but there are many in these parts and at least half have broken parts.

TIMETRIPPER · #19 09-29-2020, 11:08 PM

I agree with those who suggest getting one of the S&W top break revolvers. Quality wise, they are way ahead of all others and you should be able to find a decent shooter grade gun for $200-250.
Incidentally, that IJ you pictured is a post 1898 version that was made for smokeless powder use. The tip off is the rectangular slots for the cylinder lock. The earlier IJs did not have these and only locked up when the trigger was fully depressed.

John

DWalt · #20 09-30-2020, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcoat3340

Two H&Rs: one is the "Defender." It was made for factory guards at WWII defense plants. The other is a "snub" H&R 925 (see picture).

Starting in the mid-1960s, H&R made a new version of the "Defender" revolver in .38 S&W (and I believe some were made in in .22). It is a top break with a distinctive birds head brown plastic grip, it even has adjustable sights, and can be found in 2" and 4" barrel lengths. It is the Model 925 pictured above in the first picture. I have a 4" version and it is a true gem of a fun gun, highly accurate, and ideal for concealed carry. You don't even need a holster. You can stick it inside your pants waist and the grip neatly hooks over your belt. And it is very light in weight. I paid about $125 for it about 10 years ago and I would buy a dozen more of them at the same price. But you just don't see them these days.

ISCS Yoda · #21 09-30-2020, 01:56 AM

Quote:

I would not spend $200 on that when you could have a S&W topbreak for that amount.

That's the biggest issue. All I spent on my S&W 4th Model was around that amount and it wasn't all that long ago.

But I do like top breaks as just an interesting piece of memorabilia. The S&W above didn't survive my 2018 fire but this H&R did.

Very cool little gun. Very useful in cowboy action side matches.