Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics

Notices

Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics Post Your General Gun Topics and Non-S&W Gun and Blade Topics Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-21-2020, 06:01 AM
Kiwi cop's Avatar
Kiwi cop Kiwi cop is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 4,285
Liked 6,021 Times in 1,305 Posts
Default Finally, one Winchester and a copy

Since I lost a number of rifles and shotguns in a burglary back in February I have slowly been replacing those ones that I use regularly.

Two I thought I would not be able to replace were my Winchester '94 in 30-30 and my Chinese Norinco copy of the Winchester '97. Both a range guns, the Norinco for CAS Wild Bunch events and the '94 for long range lever action rifle.

The Norinco was a replacement for a previously stolen original pre 1940 Winchester '97 takedown. Somewhere along the line the barrel had been hacksawed back to 20" but it still shot well on steel CAS shotgun targets, although I was careful never to use full charge 2 3/4" shells. I had a store of paper 2 5/8" 12 gauge I was just about through shooting and was just getting into some light CAS "Cowboy" loads that are loaded here when the shotgun was stolen back in August 2017.

I managed to replace it with the last of 20 Norinco '97 copies my LGS had imported about 8 years ago. The only reason they still had out back it was that the action would lock up occasionally. It had been sold twice but bought back each time as "broken". The local gunsmith had looked at it but could not find anything wrong.

After some trial and error I worked out that if I opened my left palm before pulling the trigger it worked fine, but if I held the stock into my shoulder with the left hand it locked up. It sounds bad but actually, once I worked it out, closing my hand after firing, racking the slide and then opening my hand again just became natural.

When it was stolen I asked around. Norinco were no longer making the '97 copies. CAS shooters were trying for Model 12's (equally scarce if not more so), and second hand Norinco's were usually grabbed by new CAS shooters as soon as word got around one was for sale.

I put an ad in the Pistol New Zealand Trading Post section and a few weeks later got a reply. An almost new Norinco, about 100 rounds through it, that was being sold as part of a deceased shooters estate. The price was just under what I had paid 3 years ago for a new version so I snapped it up. I have not been able to shoot it yet, but on my next free range day I'll drag it along and run a few rounds through it.

Dry firing however there is no lockup if I close my left hand on the forestock.

Second hand '94's are also in short supply, especially pre AE models. I have seen two new '94's recently. One was a presentation model with heavy 24" octagonal barrel and a NZ$4,500 price tag. Last week my LGS put up an update on Facebook with a new Moruku manufactured '94 for NZ$3,500 (prices here are going crazy. None of the importers can get in everything they want right now so prices are going up).

I called the LGS but when told it was new (and right out of my price range) I just reminded them to call me first if a used '94 came in.

An hour later Jason from the LGS calls me back.

"Have I got a deal for you".

"Yeah, what is it".

"That new '94 has just been sold, but he traded in a used one in 30-30. It has some wear but overall is pretty good".

"How much".

"Oh, you better come down and see it. We'll put it out back and give you first refusal if you can get down this week" (The shop is 45 minutes away).

"I'll be down Friday on my way to Taupo. I'll call in then".

Friday arrives and I walk in. As soon as he sees me at the door, Ken, the owner, goes out back with a huge grin on his face. He comes back with a beautiful (to my eyes) '94 with checkering and still nice blueing.

He hands it to me saying "The only wear is on the bottom edge of the receiver where it has been carried over the shoulder".

Sure enough only the bottom and edges of the receiver are showing wear.

"How much"?

"Make me an offer I can't refuse".

I think about it for a few seconds and name a price 3/4 of what I am prepared to pay, just on the off chance.

"No, I said make me an offer I can't refuse" says Ken.

"Give me some idea of what you want for it" I reply.

"You can't buy second hand '94's for under a grand" says Ken. "Last one I sold was not as good as this one and I sold it for just under NZ$1,500" (Now reduce this by 2/3 to get U.S. dollars. Like I said earlier, things are getting scarce and prices only going one way).

Shoot! I'm not prepared to pay that much for a '94. Should I take my chances on getting another, cheaper (and not as good) one down the line?

Turning to Jason Ken says "What do you recon is a good price for this rifle"?

Jason gives his answer with my top dollar adding "You'll both be happy at that".

Ken gives me another grin and I say "Sold. Put it out that back and I'll come back early next week as I don't want it with me all weekend".

Today I drive down and complete the transaction. for an extra $8 I end up with the rifle, two sling swivels and a new leather sling. I guess he took another $100 off the price for me.

I still need to get a Lyman #2 peep sight to go on the tang, but it is good to see the old "thutty, thutty" in the safe again. Also on the next range day I'll be taking it along and checking the POI with my 150 gn lead bullet handloads.

Oh, and the new safe is now at about maximum capacity.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fullsizeoutput_647.jpg (159.3 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg fullsizeoutput_64a.jpg (148.1 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg fullsizeoutput_644.jpg (144.3 KB, 94 views)
__________________
View from down under
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:47 AM
Old_Cop Old_Cop is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Crawford County PA
Posts: 3,707
Likes: 4,389
Liked 6,713 Times in 2,420 Posts
Default

That is a nice 94.
__________________
Made it, Ma! Top of the world!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:52 AM
brucev brucev is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Peach State! GA!!!
Posts: 5,915
Likes: 14,303
Liked 6,256 Times in 2,327 Posts
Default

Beautiful rifle and shotgun. Wonderful you were able to find them. Sincerely. bruce.
__________________
<><
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 09-21-2020, 07:52 AM
Babysitr Babysitr is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: southern illinois
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 2,263
Liked 2,395 Times in 1,013 Posts
Default

Man, that's a real nice old Winchester!.. I would not have left without that one either....Good for you!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 09-21-2020, 09:55 AM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Harlem, Ohio
Posts: 14,423
Likes: 23,421
Liked 26,298 Times in 9,118 Posts
Default

A note on modern production Lyman Tang Sights. The elevation adjustment stop is an O-ring instead of a spring loaded detent. They still work well, until worn. I didn't and regret: Buy extra O-rings! There are no "Clicks" to count! You may want to scratch in a mark to adjust from. Montana Vintage Arms makes faithful copies of the original sights, but the price is several times of a new Lyman! Their quality is better than the originals! But if $$$ count; O-rings work fine!

Mine is mounted on a Japanese/Winchester 1885 (Low Wall) in 38-55 (made in 2004 or 2005) I also used a Lyman #17S (S is for short) globe front sight and removed the mid-barrel sight and filled the dove tail cut with a Lyman "Dove Tail Blank" I use the very fine crosshair (not a SASS leglet crosshair!)

Once I got the sights adjusted to my ammo at 100 yards, I slow fired 20 aimed shots into a single hole smaller than an American nickel (15mm+/-). The load is from and early Hodgdon loading pamphlet on Trail Boss. (2006) With Winchester brand new cases and WLP primers 7.0 grain of Trail Boss and Bear Creek's 255grain Moly Coated bullet, they are about 950 fps, almost no recoil, and fly killing accurate!

The same pamphlet has a 30-30 load listed of: 160 grain cast RNFP, WLP primer, and 6.5gr (997 fps) to 9.0 gr (1196 fps) Trail Boss powder.

Several years ago, Federal Cartridge Company, loaded a "Cowboy" 12 gauge round. It was a 2 3/4 paper hull. 7/8 ounce of #8 shot at 1275 fps. It works very well. I have loaded that round in Federal paper hulls and Winchester AA plastic hulls. That is not only my Cowboy load, but I use it for Sporting Clays in an O/U 30" Browning in warm weather. I have shot 250 rounds in shirt sleeves one afternoon with zero recoil fatigue! (I never tried to make this load in Black Powder, but it would be close on velocity!)

The worn extractor on my 1904 Model 97, prefers Federal hull to Winchester, my 1954 '97, has no preference! And NEITHER like the Magtech all brass hulls!

I hope you get to enjoy your new guns until they are wore out! (should only take 150 years of hard use!)

Ivan
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 09-21-2020, 02:36 PM
jeffrefrig jeffrefrig is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,127
Likes: 6,971
Liked 8,041 Times in 3,166 Posts
Default

So, if I get this right, a fair guess-timation would be somewhere, not too far away though, below US $1000 - $875/$900? Or perhaps the same amount on the plus side of US $1000. Even here in Pa, USA, where 100s of 1000s of Win. Model 94 .30-30s reside and are used annually without fail from 12 year old to 112 year old shooters, I do believe, if I were looking for a good example, I would probably pay near that to have one in that condition, and shoot the helk out of it! Nice guns! But that 94! Nice decision to not walk away!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 09-21-2020, 03:41 PM
Kiwi cop's Avatar
Kiwi cop Kiwi cop is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 4,285
Liked 6,021 Times in 1,305 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrefrig View Post
So, if I get this right, a fair guess-timation would be somewhere, not too far away though, below US $1000 - $875/$900? Or perhaps the same amount on the plus side of US $1000. Even here in Pa, USA, where 100s of 1000s of Win. Model 94 .30-30s reside and are used annually without fail from 12 year old to 112 year old shooters, I do believe, if I were looking for a good example, I would probably pay near that to have one in that condition, and shoot the helk out of it! Nice guns! But that 94! Nice decision to not walk away!
Dang I didn’t think ‘94’s were going for that much. I was thinking in the US$500/NZ$750 range which was my opening offer. I was hoping to get it for under NZ$1000.

NZ$1000 was the agreed price, US$670 on today’s exchange. Given I also got the leather sling (NZ $70) and swivels for NZ$1008 I believe that the final price was NZ$900/US$600.

In any event I have bought all my replacements except the ‘97 plus four other rifles, a 1911 and a pistol carbine chassis from this store in the last 5 years so I got a “special, me only” price on this one.
__________________
View from down under
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 09-21-2020, 04:00 PM
Kiwi cop's Avatar
Kiwi cop Kiwi cop is offline
Member
Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy Finally, one Winchester and a copy  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Posts: 1,972
Likes: 4,285
Liked 6,021 Times in 1,305 Posts
Default Cowboy load

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher View Post
A note on modern production Lyman Tang Sights. The elevation adjustment stop is an O-ring instead of a spring loaded detent. They still work well, until worn. I didn't and regret: Buy extra O-rings! There are no "Clicks" to count! You may want to scratch in a mark to adjust from. Montana Vintage Arms makes faithful copies of the original sights, but the price is several times of a new Lyman! Their quality is better than the originals! But if $$$ count; O-rings work fine!

Mine is mounted on a Japanese/Winchester 1885 (Low Wall) in 38-55 (made in 2004 or 2005) I also used a Lyman #17S (S is for short) globe front sight and removed the mid-barrel sight and filled the dove tail cut with a Lyman "Dove Tail Blank" I use the very fine crosshair (not a SASS leglet crosshair!)

Once I got the sights adjusted to my ammo at 100 yards, I slow fired 20 aimed shots into a single hole smaller than an American nickel (15mm+/-). The load is from and early Hodgdon loading pamphlet on Trail Boss. (2006) With Winchester brand new cases and WLP primers 7.0 grain of Trail Boss and Bear Creek's 255grain Moly Coated bullet, they are about 950 fps, almost no recoil, and fly killing accurate!

The same pamphlet has a 30-30 load listed of: 160 grain cast RNFP, WLP primer, and 6.5gr (997 fps) to 9.0 gr (1196 fps) Trail Boss powder.

Several years ago, Federal Cartridge Company, loaded a "Cowboy" 12 gauge round. It was a 2 3/4 paper hull. 7/8 ounce of #8 shot at 1275 fps. It works very well. I have loaded that round in Federal paper hulls and Winchester AA plastic hulls. That is not only my Cowboy load, but I use it for Sporting Clays in an O/U 30" Browning in warm weather. I have shot 250 rounds in shirt sleeves one afternoon with zero recoil fatigue! (I never tried to make this load in Black Powder, but it would be close on velocity!)

The worn extractor on my 1904 Model 97, prefers Federal hull to Winchester, my 1954 '97, has no preference! And NEITHER like the Magtech all brass hulls!

I hope you get to enjoy your new guns until they are wore out! (should only take 150 years of hard use!)

Ivan
The “Cowboy” shotshell load is loaded wayyyy..... down south and is a load of either 3/4 or 1 ounce (Not sure now) of bithmus in a plastic hull. There is the choice of usual star crimp or cardboard sealed roll crimp.

The bismuth totally disintegrates against a steel plate at 7 meters so no ricochet back at shooters. I once saw one fired into roofing iron at less than 6 feet with no penetration. (Idiot was running live shells through the action to “test” it in the unloading shelter instead of pointing downrange when the ‘97 slamfired). Recoil is significantly reduced from field loads.
__________________
View from down under
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB .351 Winchester brass and ammo and a book on Winchester 1907's and 1910's Muddyboot WANTED to Buy 2 05-18-2019 03:50 PM
.32 DA 2nd Model copy..any ideas? Not a copy but.. mbliss57 S&W Antiques 11 04-01-2015 01:00 PM
WTB a copy of "Good Friends - Good Guns - Good Whiskey" (Found a Copy) boykinlp WANTED to Buy 4 02-04-2011 08:28 AM
Got it, Winchester 9422, plus a Browning BL-22 (UPDATE: Winchester range report pics) canoeguy Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 6 02-04-2010 02:32 PM
Winchester Model 62 VS Taurus Copy-which one is the winner? (pic) canoeguy Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 1 06-26-2009 07:09 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:02 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)