Most 1911 discussions center around the 45 ACP but have an appreciation for the 38 Super cartridge. I have a Series '70 Colt Super and an RIA Government Model in nickel. I used to have a 1967 LW Commander in 38 Super but decided I preferred a full sized steel 1911.

Modern 38 Super ammo is woefully under powered. Mostly loaded to the same velocities as the old 38 ACP. Maybe liability concerns. Anyway, 1050 FPS in a 38 Super excites me not at all so I ignore factory ammo. I load 115 JHPs to 1450 FPS and they work fine. I went to 1525 at one point but that was too much. Recoil ion the alloy gun split an ivory grip panel. Still angry over that.

I keep some 130 grain pointed FMJ in case an attacker is wearing a vest. Known to defeat them.

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No life story has happy end.

There is a great deal good about the .38 Super. Not at all difficult to reach .357 Mag or .357 SIG ballistics with bullets up to 130 grains if you handload and add some stout recoil springs. I find AA #5 is the ideal propellant to use for really hot loads (in 9x23 Win cases or similar) due to its high bulk density. I have gone to nearly 1500 ft/sec with 124 grain FMJ bullets. That's hot enough for me. Routinely I load to around 1250-1300 ft/sec.

For a while, I had a '51 Commander in 38 Super as my EDC. Just a little too hard to conceal for me.

I too am a fan of the 38 Super cartridge and I own several firearms chambered for it. I am even in the middle of building a 38 Super Detonics for pocket carry

I have never purchased any ammunition that is watered down nor have I hand loaded any

I have found that my 38 Supers are much more accurate than their 9MM brothers. They even sound better when being fired.

While it never really caught on, you could convert your 38 Super to fire 9x23 Winchester.

When Colt failed to sell the 9x23 Chambered 1911s they offered the top ends with one magazine at a VERY nice price. Back then I built up this one on a spare stainless frame that I had.

This cartridge operates at 55,000 PSI and is just wonderful to shot. The exterior of the cartridge is the same dimensions as the 38 Super so all steel framed guns are potential donors for conversion. However, the interior of the cartridge is significantly different. Winchester claims this is the strongest hand gun brass they had ever made (statement was before the S&W 500s came out).

The standard factory load is a 124/125 grain projectile that safely chronographs out of my 1911 right at 1500 FPS. The original loadings were with WAP

The 9x23 Winchester even shines in revolvers'. I not have two 8 shot 627s that are set up for 9x23 Winchester

Both of these revolvers have their original 357 Magnum cylinder untouched. I rechambered a second cylinder for each gun.

I just recently setup the 627 V-comp thinking it might make a nice revolver for pin shooting. There should be plenty of gas volume to make the comp effective

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"Acta non verba"

I love the 38s. Definitely an under appreciated cartridge.

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213th FBINA

Long time .38 Super fan here. I’d love to have a LW Commander .38 Super that isn’t a $2k Colt. Not a fan of the bob-tail on the Dan Wesson.

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Some Might Say.

No conversions are needed to use 9x23 Win or any other rimless 9x23 case in a .38 Super pistol. My Colt and my EAA Witness both handle any 9x23 cartridge just fine with no changes in chambering or magazines. Good idea to have a heavy recoil spring for heavy loads. I have read that some believe it's not a good idea, but never why. I have fired many thousands of hot 9x23 loads through my .38 Supers without incident. Case dimensional differences between the 9x23 and .38 Super are negligible, aside from a slight taper in the 9x23 case and lack of a semi-rim. I usually reload 9x23 cases using a .38 Super die set.

I had two Colts in .38 Super about thirty-five or more years ago. I worked with cast bullets extensively and neither gun was particularly accurate. However, I understand the newer guns shoot much better.

With the .38 Super, muzzle velocities can exceed that of the 9mm with similar bullet weights by about 150 fps, maybe a little more. I've never been impressed with the 9mm cartridge, but does 150 fps or even 200 (if that's possible and safe) make the .38 Super that much better a cartridge? I don't know...

Older .38 Super barrels headspaced on the case semi-rim. Newer ones headspace on the case mouth which is better. Never figured out why the older .38 pistols weren't designed for case mouth headspacing from the beginning.

My experience with 9X23 Winchester in .38 Super pistols is similar to DWalt's. I haven't shot thousands of rounds of 9X23 Win., but have used factory and reloaded 9X23 with no issues whatsoever in my pistols.

Using well supported, ramped, barrels in 1911 type pistols, duplicating factory 9X23 Win. factory ballistics in 38 Super/Super Comp brass is easily achieved. I do prefer the relatively slow AA-9 powder for top loads.

FWIW, experimenting with Col. Cooper's Super 9/"Super Cooper" cartridge years ago, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 grain bullet before deciding that was enough. I've not done that with 9X23, but suspect it could be done without bending or breaking anything if one desired.

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Supers (10) - Copy - Copy - Copy - Copy.JPG (102.7 KB, 94 views)

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

The only concern about using a rimless case in a .38 Super barrel is if it is chambered to headspace on the case mouth. I have a long story about the 9x23 Win as I went through a period in evaluating it as a possible caliber for use in a proposed new USAF pistol back in the mid-2000s. I still have a good supply of 9x23 Win brass (supplied to me by Winchester) back then along with several hundred leftover factory-handloaded rounds using the M882 124 grain FMJ bullet. At that time the then-USAF Chief of Staff decided he wanted his troops to have a handgun more powerful than the M9 Beretta. But he lost his job and that was the end of the project. I was doing all sorts of experimentation with various propellants, charges, and bullets and AA #5 seemed to give the best performance with the M882's 124 grain bullet which we had decided to stick with. Winchester (and I) always used small rifle primers in the 9x23 due to the high working pressures. Winchester was using one of the slower-burning shotshell powders for their 9x23 Win factory loadings, but I don't remember which one. I probably have it in my notes.

I will partially disagree with you here on a few points.

First, if a heavier spring is required before shooting full power loads, that is a conversion. It may be a tiny one, but it is one.

Secondly, a smaller radius firing pin stop should also be chosen for the 1911, as it slows the slide down while it cycles

Third, while I agree that most (but not all) barrels will be just fine, the barrel needs to be checked for how it supports the case before shoving a magazine of factory 9x23 Winchester into the pistol.

Obviously the magazines can be 38 Super even though Colt has manufactured 9x23 marked magazines

I too use 38Super dies for my hand loading and I load Winchester Silhouette (WAP) powder

The only conversion to my 38Super Witness was a spring change

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"Acta non verba"

I'm a fan

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Yes, 1911 38 Supers are interesting and fun. I've got to take some better pictures one of these days but here is my blue pre-war, a poorly nickeled pre-war, a Series 70 and my latest the new "Series 70" Commander with the dual recoil spring. The newest one shoots well; don't think I've ever gotten around to fire the others, maybe one of these days.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

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I have a 1948 "Fat Barrel" variation Colt Super .38. Accuracy is OK but I'm sure it could do better with a custom barrel and bushing. I only shoot factory ammo in it.

I sure wish the current production Colt Government Models were on the so called approved roster here in CA. I'd like to have a modern example with the correctly chambered barrel to shoot. That 1948 example is too valuable to pound with hot loads.

Shortly thereafter I discovered that it runs really fat and happy with a 147 grain Hornady XTP, Bullet # 35580 on top of 7.4 grains of Blue dot. I liked it so much that since then I have purchased a Les Baer Custom carry in the same round that I am liking quite a bit as well.

have you looked at Buffalo Bore for a more intense loading?

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Merle, retired
western PA

While I know what the Fat Barrel is, I don't know if it is possible to use a newer .38 Super barrel (with case mouth headspace) and bushing with the old .38 Super slide. For my Colt (.45), I purchased a new SA 9mm slide and both .38 Super and 9mm barrels for use on my Colt frame. The SA slide fit the Colt frame perfectly with no hand fitting needed. Note that a 9mm ejector is also needed to change from .45 to 9mm/.38S. There was a local guy who was rechambering 9x19 barrels to .38 Super and 9x23 Win (using case mouth headspace), but that was over 10 years ago. That was Elmer Ballance, the original founder of Springfield Armory which was formerly located only a couple of blocks from my home in San Antonio. He may be no longer living.

When I acquired my RIA 1911A1 5" in .38 Super, I was doing so mainly because I was so interested in the cartridge.
Already had a plethora of 1911's in .22, 9mm, 10mm and .45, so that .38 niche needed filling.

After researching and developing real .38 Super loads that work great in the supported chamber of the RIA I really came to enjoy it.
Being already '9mm poor' with far too much hardware in that caliber I had no desire for watered down .38 Super ammo.

First I used up some old Speer .355" 90 gr. JHP's with very healthy doses of Blue Dot. I have no chrono, but they were screamin' fast and no pressure signs on the recovered brass.

Most since then have been 115 and 124/5 gr. JHP's being pushed in the 1450 range. Group great and mild recoil.

I'd like to experiment with 147 gr (probably Hornady XTP's) and use it to take one of our small framed Whitetail deer in my area.

I've handgun hunted quite a bit and go about it as a bowhunter would.
I believe with the right bullet and decent placement, the Super would do a good job.

Anyone here taken game with the .38 Super?

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RIA 38 Super with Lobo Gunleather.jpg (116.4 KB, 59 views)

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

I have a Tanfoglio Witness III in 38Super . It's one of my favorite and most accurate . I don't reload , fixing to rectify that , so I have to shoot what I get . Waiting for Atlanta Arms to start up again and get some of their elite ammo .

38 super is a great cartridge. The problem lies with the scarcity of brass. Every time one comes into our range the shooter is trying to pick up his brass just after he has fired the gun.
If I had a few thousand empty cases I would be all over that in a 1911 style pistol.

Old Corp, I suspect a good 147 grain might be just the thing for the type of hunting with the Super that you mention. I've used Blue Dot and others, but came to prefer AA-9 for the heaviest Super, and 10MM, loads. In 5" barrels, 1250-1300 FPS has been easily achievable in the Super with various 147 grain bullets.

FWIW, since you mention having no desire for watered down 38 Super ammo, a chronograph might be a good investment. Actual chronographed velocities in my guns often differ significantly from published data. And with bullets up to 124/125 grains, there may be little actual difference in velocities between 9MM and 38 Super when both are tested in 5" barrels. In fact, the velocity advantage is not always to the Super. Without a chronograph, there's really no way to know for sure.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Pls share your load data.

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I've still got it made.

Pls share your load data.

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I've still got it made.

1450 with Blue Dot? Please share your load data.

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I've still got it made.

Here's a couple of interesting articles on loading upper-end .38 Super loads.
The first article has the data I have been using. Work great.

Super Powders for the .38 Super

And:
Super-Accurate .38 Super Loads

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

...my favorite caliber in my favorite gun since 1980...

Full strength factory ammo:
Georgia Arms
Buffalo Bore
Underwood
Reed's Ammo
CorBon

Although I reload, I like the Underwood 90 grain Xtreme Defender load for daily carry...clocked at 1560 from a Commander and 1640 from a SUPER .38 5".

38 Super

Corbon


...there a reason the call it Super....

Bob

The 38 Super is sort of a forgotten round these days but people SHOULD be reminded of it. It is quite an excellent round!

The biggest problem is finding ammo (not talking about the current crises) and so if you shoot 38 Super on a regular basis I would strongly suggest reloading it.

One other thing about the .38 Super. SOME factory brands can be used in SOME .38 Special or .357 revolvers. The semi-rim of the .38 Super will keep the case from sliding into the chamber. I have a friend with a .357 Ruger, and his will accept every factory load we tried in it. I guess the cylinder chambers are at the high end of the diameter tolerance range. You just have to try and see.

Enjoyed the post. My Colt Commander is originally 9MM with a 38 Super barrel fitted. Does the 9MM recoil spring suffice with the 38 Super? My gunsmith says it it ok. Thanks

I'm getting back into .38 Super. I'm having my USPSA Unlimited gun converted over to an IDPA/Limited/ok to carry gun. It's a Para frame with a Caspian slide, so 20 rounds in the magazine. I'm looking forward to getting it back.

Your point about brass and loading is a great one. I stopped shooting competitively in the mid-1990s, but before that I had ordered 5,000 pieces of .38 Super brass from Starline. That box is still staring at me in my reloading area. I've got a ton of plated bullets too, so I'm ready to go.

Watch how far the brass is being thrown. If it is farther than 8 feet, then you would benefit form a more powerful recoil spring.

The only time this rule of thumb does not work is with the Very
Powerful auto loading cartridges like 475 Wildey Magnum, 44 AutoMag, etc.

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"Acta non verba"

For standard velocity .38 Super factory loads in a M1911, the same spring as used for 9mm would probably be OK, but a little heavier one wouldn't hurt. For loads in the 9x23 Win range, a strong spring is definitely in order. As stated, if the empties are being thrown more than 6-8 feet, a stronger spring should be used. 14 or 16 pound springs should work well for both 9mm and .38 Super. For 9x23 Win, I use a 20 pound spring. Best to get an assortment of springs and test to see what weight works best.

The Colt 1911 Government Model recoil spring is 14lb for .38 Super and 9mm. If loading up the .38 Super to more like "major power factor", I would go to 16lb or 17lb to check felt recoil. I'm a fan of Shok Buffs, especially if you're testing a new load in the gun to see if the Shok Buff gets battered.

not in Mexico it's not

The recoil spring is only supposed to close the slide. The main spring is the key here. It's the hammer resistance that will control the lock time.



Edit. If in doubt, get a firing pin stop from a "true" 1911(square bottom) instead of the 1911A1 type.

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Expect the unexpected

Although the mainspring/hammer spring weight for Colt was the same regardless of caliber - 23 pounds. I believe most of us working up a competition gun or wanting to lighten the trigger generally have gone with lighter weight hammer springs. This had to be balanced with the hammer that was put on the gun.

What a mess it used to be trying to get it right when some guys were experimenting with titanium hammers back in the day! They finally figured out that titanium was too brittle to be used as a hammer. I remember one guy thirty years ago who tried doing just about every part he could in titanium on his 1911 to make it as light as possible, as he thought that would give him a competitive edge. The gun broke in the middle of a USPSA Sectional match because the titanium parts started breaking. It was amusing, but you had to know the guy.

Cartridges like the 38 Super and 9x21 are popular in places where current and former military calibers are illegal for civilians.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

"The recoil spring is only supposed to close the slide. The main spring is the key here. It's the hammer resistance that will control the lock time."

Re the hammer spring, I did put an extra heavy one in my Colt (I don't know how heavy though) for use with 9x23 Win as they use Small Rifle primers due to the high chamber pressure. I sort of remember getting a few misfires with the 9x23 back in the early days (early 2000s) which was what prompted me to do it. I didn't even consider it slowing down the slide a little. Nonetheless, I still use a 20 pound slide spring for the 9x23. Makes finding the fired cases easier as they don't go so far. I use the same springs for the .400 Cor-Bon which I load to nearly 10mm performance.

Springs...have always run a 18.5# recoil spring as none of my loads are under 1200 fps and many were pushing 1400. Have never run anything but the stock 23-24# main spring except in 10mm and .45 Super which also have flat bottom firing pin stops.

Have also always used Small Rifle primers in 90% of my loads...have never had an ignition problem ever.

[QUOTE=rockquarry;140948484]extensively and neither gun was particularly accurate. However, I understand the newer guns

One of the reasons the old .38 Supers didn't shoot that great is the way Colt set them up. being a semi rimmed case Colt chambered the gun to headspace off the rim instead of the case mouth like most other autos. This is also the reason some guns will chamber 9x23. The chamber is deeper than it needs to be. Most pistoleros that like the .38 Super will rebarrel with a BarSto or other high quality barrel that is set up to headspace on the case mouth. This greatly enhances the cartridges potential for accuracy. I work for a major ammo maker and do wound ballistic workshops for a living. I shoot a lot of gelatin to the FBI protocol for LE agencies. Jacking velocities up to extremely high levels can often prove counter productive in defense loads. We've proven time and again that a properly designed and constructed bullet at a velocity it was designed to operate at, give more than adequate penetration and expansion. When bullets are sped up to velocities that exceed their operating envelope, they can become more fragile, come apart and fail to penetrate reliably. This why the 9x19 is becoming some popular with LE. Good bullets that make it work.
I've always said the .38 Super had great potential as a defensive cartridge. When the .357 Sig came out it sort of made me laugh, when the .38 Super had been around for so many years.

The US Secret Service liked the Super ballistics and was close to adopt the Sig 220 in 38 Super.



They wound up with the 357 SIG which was an excellent alternative but a double stack 38 super would have been awesome in just about anything!

Now everyone in the government is force-fed the 9mm in Glock flavor. Not bad of a choice but doesn't hold a candle to a SIG. Will get the job done though...

My very first gun in .38 Super was a pre-war Llama "Extra", a M1911 knockoff design, except it wasn't actually chambered for .38 Super. It was marked "9mm/.38" which I think was intended to mean the 9x23 Largo and .38 ACP. Nonetheless, I used 9x19 and .38 Super cartridges in it and also 9mm Steyr. It was a pretty decent gun and I don't remember what prompted me to sell it. I do remember the extractor claw breaking off (probably due to shooting 9x19 in it), which I fixed by arc welding a blob of metal on the tip and filing it to shape. It worked.

I really really like my Super







I carry it in a Bianchi Cyclone crossdraw.

One reason I like the .38 Super GM (and some other pistols) is the ability to convert it to 9x19 by just swapping barrels, and adding a 9x19 magazine if necessary. My experience is that .38 Super magazines may work OK with 9x19 but not with 100% reliability. I suppose you could also say the reverse by turning a 9mm GM pistol into a .38 Super.

BTW, a 9mm barrel can be rechambered to .38 Super very easily.

I like the .38 Super and own four of 'em. Three Colts. A Series 80 Government Model, a 1991 Combat Commander and an old 1952 Lightweight Commander. The LW suffers from the old headspace on rim problem and isn't very accurate. However the other two are fine shooters.
I also own a Rock Island Armory 1911A1 in .38 Super. Found it cheap at a gun show. That poor thing was a jam-o-matic. I discovered that the cases were hanging up in the breach face. I suspect they made those with 9mm slides. I opened up the breach face ever so slightly for the semi-rimmed Super cartridge and its run like a champ ever since.
I've been getting good results loading mine with AA#5.

I converted my Dan Wesson PM-9 to 38 Super with a second barrel/magazine combo.

Added a few other upgrades.

I came across a bunch of discounted Starline 38 Super Comp (rimless version of 38 Super+P) brass which I'm loading with AA#7 & Blue Dot behind Zero's 125gr JHP mainly.

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Waiting for the break of day

I have a SA 9mm slide, have found that it works perfectly with .38 Super cases without doing any modifications to the breech face. I did some extensive tests of 9x23 Win loads (using 124 grain FMJ bullets) and got the best results with AA #5 also. I credit that to the high bulk density of the AA #5, and that is the only propellant I use. I stop at 8.7 grains, but have gone up to 9 grains getting >1500 ft/sec in 9x23 Win cases. In the larger volume .38 Super cases, MV will be lower with equivalent loads. I don't recommend loading .38 Super cases to extreme MVs as they are not designed to withstand very high pressure, as the 9x23 Win cases are. I generally stop at about 1300 ft/sec with .38 Super cases in the unsupported Colt .38 Super chamber. 8.5 grains of AA#5 in a .38 Super case with 124 grain fmj bullets will produce a MV (5" bbl) a shade over 1300 ft/sec with great consistency, pretty much an ideal load which is not overly hot and good enough for any reasonable application. It handily beats a +P .38 Special load.

True, because it’s not prohibited like the 9mm. My company’s owner, who’s also the Philippine’s ambassador to Mexico, had us develop a commander-size 1911 in .380, because of the popularity of both in Mexico and countries further south. Many of our .38 Supers/ammo are distributed south of the border.

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213th FBINA

Getting back to this thread to enjoy the .38 Super discussion.



I had wanted to play with the .38 Super from a handloading standpoint for years. It was only early this year that one was gathered in. Wasn't impressed with the fact that it was some Talo edition and didn't much like the two tone look, but snuck up on it as a "real deal" on GunBroker just before the advent of COVID-19 in the news cycle. Shot it a bit in the early spring, but a bum shoulder ultimately requiring surgery has denied me any shooting since early summer. Ammunition loading dies and components have been gathered in as I intend to get into .38 Super next year.

Threads like this don't help my attitude about a medically required ban on shooting.