I'm posting this here because I am seeking information and opinions.
My username is because I have always owned more Ruger firearms then any other name brand. And, I own several MINI's and 2 Ruger AR's (and a couple of other AR's). I'm thinking about trading one of my Ruger AR's for a MINI-14. Do you think I will find someone (In La. only) that might want to trade straight up? Opinions?

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How many guns are too many?

I suppose you could try the "Guns for sale or trade" section. Maybe add a couple pictures to go along with it.

You are most likely to get the most for your AR selling it for cash on Gunbroker, or via private local sale if allowed in your jurisdiction. Then go shopping for a Mini-14.

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

I thought about making a post there at first, but wanted to get opinions from those that own both rifles. I don't have to trade my AR, but I just like to collect MINI rifles and 2 of the same AR's don't get me too excited lately.
I don't see the MINI rifle going up in price like AR's. And big brother doesn't have their sights set on the MINI like they do an AR. That's why I was thinking I could just trade straight up.

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How many guns are too many?

I had an AR and a Mini 14. AR was more accurate. Mini had simplicity in its favor. I think that if big brother is successful in making ARs illegal the time lag between that and minis is going to be short. I sold both of mine to some guy when I had a yard sale. Forget his name. Showed me an in state ID though, so perfectly legal sale here.

You're gonna lose money on shipping and time with GB, and you're probably gonna lose money trying a private sale, plus time. I'd trade even one direction or the other, if it was me, and if you could find one. Here in flyover country, you're probably not going to find a Mini 14 for trade. Best bet is to make it known at the LGS's in your area what you want to do. My dealers would find a Mini for me, and we'd do the deal. I'm sure I'd have to pay a little boot for his time and trouble, but I'd be okay with that . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Sounds like a reasonable and logical trade to me. The only problem will be finding that one guy wanting the opposite of you.

Well I live in Louisiana and I own a stainless Mini 14 and I don't know that I would make that trade. For sure I would not make it straight up I would need at least $300 boot. I just LIKE the mini more than the AR15 )full disclosure I also own an AR that I got in a trade a few years ago that I have not even shot yet). The Mini is a 6" gun at 100 yards with open sights offhand and I'm happy with that. FOr accuracy, I am putting together a NICE Ruger RSI Hawkeye with a 1x4 Leopold in .223. Will wait to see if a panic ensues and then try to sell the AR for an obscene amount of money
If the SHTF and I have to spray and pray, the Mini 14 will do nicely and shooting at targets over 100 yards will be problematic when pulling out the old self defense card in any event.
As always the foregoing expressions of opinion are mine and mine alone and those with lesser minds are free to disagree

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Forum consigliere

It has always puzzled me why gun people want to add restrictions that are not required either by the state or the feds.
I recently bought a S&W handgun here in GA. Fellow said he wanted a BofS. I told him he could see my GA DL and GA weapons permit, but he could not take down any info from them. The law doesn’t require even that. The law requires that you do not KNOWINGLY sell a gun to someone who is prohibited.

The fellow sold me the gun.

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Georgia On My Mind

What's a BofS?

I have it advertised in a La. sports website to trade. I have only received replies to buy it. So far, the highest bid has been $900. It sure is tempting, but I'm holding out for a trade. As I have stated before, I DON'T have to sell it (yet ).

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How many guns are too many?

Bunch Of *******' Stuff?

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How many guns are too many?

Thank you; I mistakenly thought it might have real meaning.

Bill of Sale

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

I would think a "Bill of Sale".

I wouldn’t have. Missouri has the same law. When I sell a gun in a private sale, I get a signed bill of sale and I run your name through the Missouri public court records. Don’t want to do that? Tough. How do I know you haven’t been arrested since the CCW permit was issued? You shouldn’t bully your way to a sale, and when people puff up, I always suspect an issue . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If you were offered $900 for your AR you should easily be able to buy a Mini 14 for less than that. Several years ago my Walmart was selling all their Mini 14s because they were getting away from all high capacity rifles and I bought one marked down from $610 to $240.

I have spent a lot of trigger time with the MINI14 and am totally underwhelmed by it’s lack of accuracy.

Also it is foolish to think that the anti’s would only ban AR’s and leave other types of semi-auto rifles alone. I understand your thinking though as I have a Saiga Sport Carbine in unaltered import condition. Model anti “assault weapon” bans are being worded to ban a semi-auto rifle if they only have one of several features. The most common feature is detachable magazines. There is a workaround with AR’s having non-detachable mags but how can a non-detachable MINI14 be loaded?

I have a friend that loves the MINI14 accuracy and doesn’t see the need for a AR so go with the one you enjoy the most.

How about you show me yours first then I will show you mine? How do I know that you are a prohibited person or are trying to sell a stolen firearm?

The buyer is assuming more risk as they may end up with a stolen gun and be out the money they paid for it.

Don’t buy it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Thanks; okay, it does have meaning.

And if you had a bill of sale, you’d know who to tell the cops to go talk to . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

What website? Bayoushooters or Louisiana sportsman

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Forum consigliere

Almost a flight of B-52's.

I own three Mini 14s, a 180 series, a 184 series and a 187 series Ranch Rifle. The 180 series shoots solid 2 MOA 5 shot groups. The other 2 shoot solid 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups.

The 180 has nothing more than a Browning style Choate muzzle brake/front sight. The other two have SOCOM sized Accu Struts, shock buffers and .040" gas ports.

To put that in context my Colt SP1 and my Colt made M16A1 upper half both shoot 1.5 MOA with the same M193 clone ammo.

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If you look at the last several iterations of the assault weapon ban legislation you'll find the Mini 14 has been specifically listed in the exempt weapons category on each and every one of those bills. It doesn't make any sense given the Mini 14 has a higher cyclic rate, has readily 20 and 30 round mags, and has been used in its share of mass shootings - but knee jerk gun ban legislation is never about common sense or logic.

When it comes to what the media calls "assault rifles" it's all about scary looking features. Unless you add a folding stock to a Mini 14, it avoids the ban legislation as it lacks the scary look and scary features.

That's called personal responsibility and we don't have nearly enough of it. It's sadly been replaced by the idea that is the law allows something, then it must be not only legal, but also ethical and acceptable - or worse, that if you do something over and above the standard required by law, you are in some way violating your own rights. It's bizarre.

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One of the local shops in the area will run a NICS check on the buyer for your private sale for a $5 fee. It's a quick and easy for you to make a private sale and confirm the buyer isn't a prohibited individual. You can also then complete the sale there, instead of in some parking lot. If the buyer isn't interested in doing that, I'm not interested in selling to him or her.

However, I will also accept a valid concealed carry permit in lieu of a NICS check as in NC it's vetting the person in excess of what you have with a NICS check, and it meets the Brady requirements.

Your point is valid that the permit might not be valid if the person committed an offense and did not surrender the permit. However, an FFL faces the same problem, and they don't fret over it.

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A bill of sale is important if the firearm ever shows up at a crime scene. It takes time, but they can track a firearm purchased through an FFL back to you. Being able to show a bill of sale signed by both parties with the date of sale makes life easier if the buyer does something stupid with it. It's also a lot easier if you can also document a "proceed" on a NICS check or a copy of a concealed carry permit, or at least the permit number and the person's name.

Yep, the only things in the 1994 assault weapons ban that affected the Mini-14 were flash suppressors, magazine capacity, and folding stocks. Otherwise, the Mini-14 was exempt and readily available. Why? Probably because no military in the world has adopted the Mini-14 as an issue firearm. Would the Mini-14 be exempt from a future ban? Don't know, but if a detachable magazine and semi-automatic firing are the only things that define "assault weapon", then lots of semi-automatic firearms, including handguns, will be verboten. Time will tell.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

What’s wrong with $900 cash?
Cash is always simpler, and gives you more options.

A bill of sale can save you a lot of attorney fees if anything comes back on you.

The Mini 14 will be on the same lists as AR’s very soon.

A flight or bunch of B52s was called... Arc Light.
After programing the T1A Gunnery Simulator to spell out a two word profane phrase on a Friday, like sky writing, I was advised to be in early on Monday. It made a Gunner who never smiled almost laugh out loud. Expecting a reprimand I was introduced to a Gunner, who just saw a Sam come up and almost kiss them, and we spent the day duplicating it's track on the old T1A.

Nice to have a semi in 5.56/223 that can shoot a ragged hole at 100yds.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

Bermuda and Honduras both issued the AC-556, the select fire version of the Mini-14.

It avoided the proposed ban lists in the past due to two things:

- Bill Ruger's political deal making (His refusal to sell the 30 round magazines to the general public was part of that); and

- The Mini 14's traditional wood stock design, which doesn't set off alarm bells.

I did not know about Honduras and Bermuda adopting the select fire AC-556.

I doubt the wood stock will have any effect on the alarm bells next time around.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

There are two things on the positive side of the ledger.

First, when congress trots out a new gun bill, it's almost always based on a previous bill, and that's especially true when the previous bills never made it out of committee. Without any debate on the floor there really isn't any reason to change what is in the bill.

Second, when the 1994 AWB was passed it cost the party pushing it the dominance they'd had in the house and senate since 1931, shortly after the start of the Great Depression. They've never really recovered from the damage they did to themselves in 1994.

That makes talk about gun bans mostly just pandering to the party base, rather than an actual thing. Even if they had the votes to pass such a bill, I doubt they'd spend all that political capital for another ban that would produce the same results in the next house and senate elections as they got in the 1996 election.

True, but so many of those who are currently in Congress do not remember the passage of the 1994 bill nor do they understand that long term repercussions it had on their party and they will be led by those whose ideology overrides any knowledge of past mistakes.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Since when has going beyond the letter of the law by offering to show state picture ID as well as a current state carry permit “bully(ing) your way to a sale”?

90% of the private buying and selling I do is from a statewide website that provides feedback on members. I have 100% positive feedback with nearly 70 transactions over an eight year period. If that isn’t good enough, along with DL and permit, for a seller, then I will just go to an ffl dealer.

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Georgia On My Mind

Curious as to how many firearms a person sells in a given amount of time would require them to get an FFL?

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

I don't receive a paycheck from any law enforcement organization and am not required to do their job. I follow the law. I will not knowingly sell to a prohibited person and that is all required of me. Montana's only restriction is " Firearms may not be knowingly transferred by or to someone subject to official detention". No more worried about it than selling a baseball bat. The odds of something happen with a gun or baseball bat, I sold are very tiny and the odds that of them arresting me over it are even smaller.

I have sold and traded multiple guns or so over the my over 50 years of owning them. SO far so good. Odds are I will make it another 20 and past that if the feds give me 3 hots and a cot so be it.

As I read it the number of guns is not the factor. Intent is the factor. If you buy a single gun and sell it with the sole intent of making a profit, you are more of a dealer than someone who owns 10 guns and decides to sell them all because he no longer desires them. There is no set numbers by BATF
Motive=Profit=Problems

What is the time lapse between someone being arrested for a felony and the revocation of their state carry permit in your state? And if revoked, what is the time lapse between revocation and actual seizure of the permit?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

There isn't any fixed number, but that number can be as low as "one".

Here is what the ATF says on the subject in terms of a definition:

"3. Dealer in firearms -- a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his
personal collection of firearms (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C))."

The ATF goes on to further contextualize it:

"The term “principal objective of livelihood and profit” is further defined as the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms as predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, that proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.

Note that there is no particular minimum number of firearms that must be sold, manufactured, or imported specified by law to be 'engaged in the business.' Whether a person has been engaged in the business of dealing, manufacturing, or importing firearms, is made on a case-by-case basis. Considerations include, but are not limited to: the quantity of firearms sold, manufactured, or imported; the frequency of transactions over a period of time; the intent of the person in acquiring and disposing of firearms; and any representations made to the buyer regarding the person’s ability and willingness to obtain or transfer firearms. We recommend that you contact your local ATF office (Page Not Found | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) to evaluate the facts and circumstances of your particular case."

Let's unpack all that.

First there are the exceptions to being considered a dealer:

"...but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his
personal collection of firearms..."

That seems to exclude folks who make occasional sales or exchanges to improve a collection and eventually sells part or all of that collection.

However, if someone is buying firearms for a collection, with the intent to sell them later for a profit, it becomes a very gray area.

The "considerations" used by the ATF help shed some light in that gray area:

a) the quantity of firearms sold, manufactured, or imported;
b) the frequency of transactions over a period of time;
c) the intent of the person in acquiring and disposing of firearms; and
d) any representations made to the buyer regarding the person’s ability and willingness to obtain or transfer firearms.

I know folks with over a hundred firearms who never sell any and obviously are not in it for profit, unless they are doing it as a very long term retirement savings kind of investment, so quantity by itself isn't enough.

However, I also know folks who come across really good (but not always ethical) deals and buy firearms. For example, a widow selling a PPK for $100 at a yard sale, with the intent of re-selling that PPK for a profit because he knows it's worth $600+ and that he could get at least $300 for it at a local gun shop.

In that case, that single purchase makes them a dealer as it was done with the intent to make a profit. What might save them from falling into that category is how long they hold on to it before they sell it.

In general, if you keep it less than a year, the ATF will probably regard it as a sale for the sole intent of making a profit. You might have an out if you can show some other valid reason for selling it that soon - such as losing your job, having large medical bills or some other financial crisis that caused you to have to sell off part or all of what you intended to be an actual collection.

That said, the ATF is probably only going to be looking at you if you do that kind of thing on a regular basis - buying an under priced firearm on-line, at local pawn shops, or from private sellers with the intention of flipping it for a profit. The ATF will take the position that you are clearly a firearms dealer. It'll be real hard to say that you are just chronically short of money and are "forced to sell", since you are now obviously flipping firearms as a source of revenue.

In short, if you are buying firearms and then selling them at a profit after owning them less than a year, you need to get an FFL. If you buy any firearm with the intent to immediately re-sell it, you need to have an FFL.

Conversely, if you buy a firearm because you always wanted to own one, then sell it after awhile (ideally more than a year) to fund the purchase of something else you always wanted, you probably are not a dealer in firearms.

There is also the consideration of criminal activity. If you knowingly sell a firearm to a prohibited person, or for any other criminal purpose, the ATF can treat you as someone selling without an FFL based on that single sale, regardless of whether you made a profit on the sale or not. That moron who bought the AR-15 for that 17 year old kid who shot two people at a protest made what we all call a straw purchase, but he was also selling firearms without an FFL, based on that single sale and given the circumstances they'll dump everything they can on him.

Finally, let's talk about that guy we all see at local gun shows who rents a table and is advertising private sales.

It's one thing if the guy is there for the purpose of selling off "part or all of his collection" to raise some needed cash, after owning those firearms for years or decades.

It's another thing entirely if he is there show after show selling firearms, and worse, also purchasing or trading firearms at those shows. If that's the case he's falling under the category of "any representations made to the buyer regarding the person’s ability and willingness to obtain or transfer firearms" and he needs to have an FFL.

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Way back in the day (prior to about 1990), it was pretty easy to get an FFL which required some record keeping, but made it legal for you to buy and then resell weapons for a profit. At that time there were a large number of surplus Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903 Springfields, 1917 Enfields, P14 Enfields, SMLE's and other WWI and WWII era weapons showing up on the market in very good to excellent condition at great prices. We all knew they'd appreciate as soon as the supplies dried up. In that case, with an FFL buying them with the intent to resell a few years down the road was entirely legal.

However, the ATF decided there were way too many dealers and started requiring an actual storefront. That put an end to that. The C&R category and the related collectors license eventually addressed that, but it didn't address (and still does not) newer surplus arms that were/are imported and that will quickly start appreciating in value.

However, I am now encountering FFL holders who are once again operating out of garages and basements with no store front and no presence other than at gun shows, so the ATF doesn't appear to be requiring a store front at the moment.

Here are the top five results from an internet search of the phrase "man charged with selling firearms without license . . . "

Decide for yourself . . .

Providence man arrested for selling guns without license | WPRI.com

Janesville Man Charged with Dealing Firearms without a License | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Las Vegas Man Charged with Selling Hundreds of Firearms Without a License | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

These Two "Engaged in the Business” Cases Highlight Problems with a Gun Law


Indiana Man Charged in Federal Court With Illegally Selling Dozens of Guns in the Chicago Area | USAO-NDIL | Department of Justice

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Here in NC, if you are arrested and charged, the status of your permit will be addressed at the bond hearing. Depending on the nature of the charge and the requirements of the bond, you may or may not be allowed to keep it, - basically depending on whether whatever you did makes you a prohibited individual. A non felony DUI charge, maybe. A domestic violent charge, probably not, for obvious reasons.

It's up to the Sheriff in the county to collect a permit when it's revoked. If they serve the notice in person they confiscate the permit immediately. If the person is served by mail, they have 48 hours to surrender it or they are guilty of a crime.

Your state may vary.

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But quite frankly you are making a huge deal out of nothing.

Several states have done comparative studies of concealed carry permit holders, law enforcement officers and regular citizens. In general law enforcement officers are convicted of felonies and serious misdemeanors about 1/3rd as often as regular citizens. In comparison, concealed carry permit holders are convicted of felonies and serious misdemeanors about 1/7th as often as law enforcement officers.

In short, someone with a concealed carry permit is statistically 7 times less likely to be a criminal than an law enforcement officer, and 21 time less likely to be a criminal than the average person off the street.

Statistically then we should all be a lot more comfortable selling to someone as a private sale if they have a concealed carry permit than if they have a badge. (Which is also a sad commentary on the state of ethics and personal conduct in law enforcement.)

And once again for the folks who are not the brightest colors in the box of crayons, FFLs in states where the concealed carry permit meets the Brady requirements, don't have any issues accepting a concealed carry permit in lieu of a NICS check.

The major exception will be box box stores where store policy requires a NICS check as a matter of having a standard practice across all states.

The first two are examples of what I mentioned above:

- Someone buying and selling at a gun shows while presenting himself as someone who buys and sells guns. He was clearly an idiot as well as a unlicensed gun dealer.

- Someone who made a sale to someone who committed a crime with the gun that was sold. Like the kid in Michigan, the buyer immediately ratted out the guy who sold him the gun, probably to be seen as cooperative in the investigation and or as part of a plea agreement. I suspect that's how he came to the attention of the ATF in the first place. He's probably screwed even without proof of any other sales. It's why due diligence in screening a buyer matters, even in a private sale.

The other examples are more extreme and are way off in the right hand tail statistically speaking. Unfortunately, they get promoted as a much larger problem than they are, and in the case of states like Illinois are the basis for demands to end gun shows nation wide on the premise that they become conduits for guns from places without bans or extensive to gun control to places with bans and extensive gun control.

But that's how you get prosecuted for it. Blatantly sell a ton of guns, sell to someone who uses it in a crime, or sell drugs along with guns . . .


Here's one in my backyard. The stories with more details are unfortunately behind pay walls . . .

I-Team Update: Rush brothers plead not guilty to weapons charges

Poplar Bluff Brothers Sentenced For Illegally Dealing In Firearms | USAO-EDMO | Department of Justice

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

All it takes is one person to feel unlawfully charged, have firearms seized, and buy another to set things straight. As far as your premise above, that is done here on a regular basis. Just trying to fit in . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If I started taking all my guns tto gun shows and putting them out ona table I would expect to hear from the BATF at some point.

If I made multiple sales to the criminal element I would expect the same thing.

The number of career criminals around here is really low, lots of people here have no permit as you only need one to carry on your person in town. No permit needed for a gun anywhere in your car or when out in the country side even if concealed.

If I sell a gun to a guy appears to be of legal age, I have done everything legally required by me even if I don't check and write any of his information down. I am under no legal obligation to investigate his criminal record. Would I sell to a guy who had the heebie jeebies or looked hinky? No. Put around here guns are sold and traded just like bicycles and lawn mowers. I got a great deal on a Ruger Bearcat from a guy with a table that had maybe 10 guns and some other stuff during a street fair on the Main drag. No nothing, but cash. As it should be. 2nd Amendment ain't got no deal about having a permit in it!

I certainly couldn’t be accused of buying and selling for a profit.

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Georgia On My Mind

How this thread went from "should I trade my Ruger AR for a Mini-14" to conflicting opinions regarding being an unlicensed dealer and being prosecuted for same is mysterious. Since the OPs question was answered, thread closed.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220