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Old 11-16-2020, 06:27 PM
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Winchester Model 1907. Grandfather of assault rifles. ??


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Old 11-16-2020, 06:39 PM
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Indeed it is
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Old 11-16-2020, 07:01 PM
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My vote goes to that "Damn Yankee Rifle you load on Sunday and shoot all week " ...
The 1860 Henry Lever Action ...15 shot capacity , rapid loading .
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:18 PM
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Indeed it is
Ya beat me too it!! 1795 Pattern Harper's Ferry Charleville or whatever they were called. I think the Devil Dogs assaulted the Shores of Tripoli with these, didn't they?
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:21 PM
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Was the Brown Bess used to assualt Lexington?
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:25 PM
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Be careful what gets labeled an “assault rifle”. But having said that I’m going with the Henry.
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:28 PM
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I always thought the original ASSAULT RIFLES were the ones we used to be able to buy "mail order" and not shoot without parental approval; remember them, the M-1 Carbine and the Garand etc etc etc. Back in the days of the traditional family which included a father who was respected and listened to (or else)... Yeah, I miss those days too.
IMHO of course,
J.
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:38 PM
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I've always thought those 1907s were wicked cool. Especially with the "hi-capacity" magazine. There was one that languished in a LGS when I first got into guns and shooting back in the mid-70s. As I recall proced at $200, and could have been had for less, I'm pretty sure. Wish I'd had sense enough to buy it.
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:40 PM
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I’d through a Sharps in the mix
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:43 PM
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The original "assault rifle" was the German StG44, the selective fire Sturmgewehr in 7.92mm kurz with a 30 rd. mag.
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:45 PM
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I would put forth this Revolutionary War rifle....The Ferguson

Ferguson rifle - Wikipedia
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:50 PM
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Always liked the 1907s. Especially the gangster era extended magazine models offered to police departments.

If there were better (any) ammo availability I wouldn't mind owning one. Even before the Ammo Panic of 2020, you had to either reload or search vintage ammo merchants.

Thanks for sharing yours.

(I would say that the 1907 was the grandfather of the M1 Carbine, but not of Assault Rifles as I don't think it was ever offered with full auto capability. That title goes, imo, to the aforementioned STG-44)

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Old 11-16-2020, 08:56 PM
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The original "assault rifle" was the German StG44, the selective fire Sturmgewehr in 7.92mm kurz with a 30 rd. mag.
I agree, this was a true assault weapon used by the German Army.
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:15 PM
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Winchester Model 1907. Grandfather of assault rifles. ??


The model 8 Remington predated it.
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:34 PM
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Remington 8
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:36 PM
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My vote is for the 1894 Winchester in 30-30 . Up till then , most lever guns either fired pistol cartridges or large caliber fairly low velocity big lead slugs that had the trajectory of like throwing a potato long distance . The 30 WCF , aka 30-30 changed all that . Regards Paul
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudi View Post
The original "assault rifle" was the German StG44, the selective fire Sturmgewehr in 7.92mm kurz with a 30 rd. mag.
The Official term "Assault Rifle" includes two things: 1) being Full Auto or Select Fire. 2) in a reduced military RIFLE caliber. (1921 Thompson doesn't qualify. Although a few 1828 prototypes were made in 351 SL, same as the 1907 Win. Never went into production, but is very interesting to think about!)

The Russians came up with one of these first, in the early 1930's. Select Fire and in 6.5 Japanese (compared to 7.62x54, it is reduced.)

In 1942 The Luftwaffe had the StG42 for paratroopers, but it was in 8x57.

I'm not clear on what the Russian gun was (maybe the semi auto SKS) but 7.62x39 is the M-43 Cartridge and inspired the German 8x33 Kurtz round in 1944.

The M-1 Carbine is not a FA or SF weapon, the M-2 Carbine is! (don't let the ignorant media confuse you about AR-15's either!)

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Old 11-16-2020, 09:58 PM
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"The World's Assault Rifles and Automatic Carbines" by Musgrave and Nelson credits the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 as being the first 'assault rifle'. It was capable of full and semi-auto fire from a 25 round magazine. It used a less powerful cartridge (6.5mm Japanese) than the standard 7.62mm Russian rimmed rifle cartridge and saw service in WWI and later.
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Old 11-16-2020, 10:12 PM
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"The World's Assault Rifles and Automatic Carbines" by Musgrave and Nelson credits the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 as being the first 'assault rifle'. It was capable of full and semi-auto fire from a 25 round magazine. It used a less powerful cartridge (6.5mm Japanese) than the standard 7.62mm Russian rimmed rifle cartridge and saw service in WWI and later.
Sorry my memory missed the date by a few decades! But I knew the Russkies did it, I didn't realize it was Czarist Russians though. Their experience in 1905 gave them a unique appreciation for 6.5x50R round!

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Old 11-17-2020, 12:31 AM
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The 6.5 Japanese was a rifle round, comparable to the 6.5 Carcano. The StG 44 was the first "official" assault rifle.
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:16 AM
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The definition of an assault rifle includes a pistol grip, making the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 ineligible.

The STGW44 was preceeded by the less common and very costly FG42 , the Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 by two years, thus making the FG42 the first assault weapon that was issued, if we want to allow the battle rifle calibre into the game. The first rifle with a pistol grip was invented in Liege, Belgium in 1840 by Delvigne.
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
My vote goes to that "Damn Yankee Rifle you load on Sunday and shoot all week " ...
The 1860 Henry Lever Action ...15 shot capacity , rapid loading .
I’ve heard that being applied to the Spencer also. Plus it held the same number of cartridges as the week is long.
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:57 AM
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The definition of an assault rifle includes a pistol grip, making the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916 ineligible.
The original definition has no pistol grip requirement. As to 6.5 Japanese and 6.5 Carcano being a full powered rifle rounds? Not compared to 7.62x54! I have shot many rounds of all 3, NO COMPARISON at all! Besides there were and really are no rules, just legal definitions and other distortions by the media. Originally nobody set out to create a class of assault weapons, they WERE TRYING to create a better infantry weapon to kill the enemy. Anything that works is acceptable. We look back years and wars later and say that this or that breaks the rules? That's just crazy talk!

(some would say that 6.5 Carcano was not a Main Battle Rifle round, it was designed to kill Austrians at 300 meters and go through all their heavy winter clothing. It was a high capacity rifle [6 rounds] and small size and light recoil.)

Remember the BAR, John M. Browning, didn't really consider it a Machine Gun. (and he of all people should know!) But it sure is considered one by every government on the planet and everyone involved with one in combat!

Words, terms, and definitions do matter! Many people use the words and terms with no idea of the meaning or correct usage. Assault Rifle is one of those terms!

Ivan

If I smack you up side the head with a Trapdoor Springfield, I assaulted you with a rifle, but does that make it an Assault Rifle?
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Old 11-17-2020, 12:16 PM
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Ivan

If I smack you up side the head with a Trapdoor Springfield, I assaulted you with a rifle, but does that make it an Assault Rifle?


Actually once contact is made, that's battery. A one man rifle battery. That's pretty good.
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Old 11-17-2020, 01:06 PM
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Bring it to the turn-in, you'll get a $100 Walmart card!
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Old 11-17-2020, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDSTER View Post
Winchester Model 1907. Grandfather of assault rifles. ??


Doesn't qualify without a bayonet lug. Seriously, I used to deer hunt with a fellow who used one of these beasts. It was effectively a single shot, one shot and a jam, but a nice well made gun from the walnut and forged steel era.
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Old 11-17-2020, 02:38 PM
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Off topic a bit, but do you ever ponder the magical power of the phrases "assault rifle" or "assault weapon"? Because the Constitution does not include any mention of "assault rifle/weapon", nor any limitation of what an assault rifle/weapon can be, that magical phrase can be used by government to label any weapon it seeks to ban, and the 2A cannot be used as a defense. It's magic.
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Old 11-17-2020, 02:56 PM
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Doesn't qualify without a bayonet lug. Seriously, I used to deer hunt with a fellow who used one of these beasts. It was effectively a single shot, one shot and a jam, but a nice well made gun from the walnut and forged steel era.
There was nothing wrong with the 1907 Win. If one is jamming it’s what you call a personal problem. There were a few made for France in WW1. Employed mainly as armament in early biplanes.
Originally 32SL & 35SL dropped for 351Win. Not far off from the new Win 350L. The O7 saw lots of Law enforcement duty and prison guard guns. Bigger version 401win was never as popular. I think Vern Miller one of the 1930s mobsters was killed by FBI agent with a 1907 Win. Let’s not forget Rem 8 & 81 rifle. About same era but with more horse power. One was used in Bonnie & Clyde ambush. They were fixed box but they had police models with detachable magazines. They to had limited military contracts in WW1. Another JM Browning design.
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Old 11-17-2020, 03:20 PM
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Washington State law defines assault rifle as any and all semi-automatic rifles. That includes great grandpa's tube magazine .22 rimfire so to answer the question our wonderful elected officials would need to know what the first auto-loading rifle was. It's not a bad question and not entirely off topic.

I would love to see the current U.S. Supreme Court rule on whether Washington's law complies with D.C. v. Heller. Justice Thomas would love to write the opinion.
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:13 PM
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The term "assault rifle" is made up. Back when the British were shooting at us with a Brown Bess, we were being "assaulted" but were they called "assault rifles"?
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:23 PM
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The term "assault rifle" is made up. Back when the British were shooting at us with a Brown Bess, we were being "assaulted" but were they called "assault rifles"?
Nope Brown Bess is a smooth Bore. No rifling to be found.
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:09 PM
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Sorry Vern Miller was beaten, tortured and strangled. Body dumped in a ditch.

Vernon C. Miller - Wikipedia
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
nor any limitation of what an assault rifle/weapon can be, that magical phrase can be used by government to label any weapon it seeks to ban, and the 2A cannot be used as a defense. It's magic.
Just as an aside, the terms rifle, pistol, gun, or even firearm are NOT in the 2nd Amendment. The term is "arms".

If you look up the definition of "arms" in the 18th century you will find that the definition was, more or less, anything that a person wears or carries for his/her defense, or, and this is the best part, "takes in his/her hands as a weapon". So, from a legal perspective, it matters not one hoot what the State of Washington calls an "assault rifle" except and unless judges, or Justices, redefine the term "arms".

This is certainly off the original topic so I'll stop there.

But I do appreciate learning the history of one Vern Miller. Fascinating criminal from the Depression era. A nasty guy indeed!
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
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The 6.5 Japanese was a rifle round, comparable to the 6.5 Carcano. The StG 44 was the first "official" assault rifle.
In diameter, yes, but ballistically the 6.5 Jap offers more than the Carcano. The 6.5 Jap was ahead of its time so to speak. While a late-1890s design, its WWI-WWII era loading with the long, spitzer bullet is kind-of akin to the Russian 5.45. That isn’t to say the 6.5 Carcano is chopped liver.
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:42 PM
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There is no such thing!
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
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[...] So, from a legal perspective, it matters not one hoot what the State of Washington calls an "assault rifle" except and unless judges, or Justices, redefine the term "arms". [...]
While how the state of Washington defines "assault rifle" is unlikely to influence how any court outside of Washington interprets the 2nd Amendment, it does matter a few hoots. In WA all semi-auto rifle transfers require the same paperwork as modern pistols with the same waiting period. Also we have to prove we took a special training class for semi-auto rifles, and unlike other long guns, persons aged 18 through 20 can not buy them. These changes to the law were made by a citizen's initiative that was largely passed by the masses in urban areas. I suspect most of them did not look beyond the TV commercials or read what the the changes to the law would actually be.
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Old 11-18-2020, 06:28 AM
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Winchesters and Colts have been assaulting my sea chest full of doubloons over the years.
I can only imagine the creative language when on the muzzle end of a lever gun in the waining days of muzzle loaders.

Lackland in '66 ...the entire line of recruits opened up full auto in unison with carbines.
If it wasn't for that and the roller rink with pop music basic might have been really boring.
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Old 11-18-2020, 07:57 AM
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Lackland in '66 ...the entire line of recruits opened up full auto in unison with carbines.
If it wasn't for that and the roller rink with pop music basic might have been really boring.
You too?...I got there 1/3/66, and I remember cutting loose with five rounds full-auto with a worn out M-16, but the roller rink escaped me......Ben
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Old 11-18-2020, 09:13 AM
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I agree, this was a true assault weapon used by the German Army.
Actually, the Stg44 was originally called the MP44 - a "submachinegun" subterfuge as to its real character in deference to der fuehrer, who was initially against the concept. When he finally actually saw one demonstrated, he caved and re-named it the Sturmgewehr 44.

John

This is an original MP44.
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2020, 10:44 AM
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Nope Brown Bess is a smooth Bore. No rifling to be found.
Agreed, in those days it was an "Assault Musket".
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Old 11-18-2020, 12:29 PM
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Actually, the Stg44 was originally called the MP44 - a "submachinegun" subterfuge as to its real character in deference to der fuehrer, who was initially against the concept. When he finally actually saw one demonstrated, he caved and re-named it the Sturmgewehr 44.

John

This is an original MP44.

IIRC the definition includes the use of a "intermediate power cartridge"... aka more than a pistol round and less than the full battle rifle round.

Which eliminates the BAR introduced in 1918 .............. which per Wiki was "designed to be carried by an infantryman during an "assault advance"........

We could also add the Civil War Spencer Carbine to the mix....it allowed small cavalry units to engage/hold off larger infantry units.... like the first day at the Battle of Gettysburg

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Old 11-18-2020, 12:47 PM
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Just as an aside, the terms rifle, pistol, gun, or even firearm are NOT in the 2nd Amendment. The term is "arms".

If you look up the definition of "arms" in the 18th century you will find that the definition was, more or less, anything that a person wears or carries for his/her defense, or, and this is the best part, "takes in his/her hands as a weapon". So, from a legal perspective, it matters not one hoot what the State of Washington calls an "assault rifle" except and unless judges, or Justices, redefine the term "arms".

This is certainly off the original topic so I'll stop there.

But I do appreciate learning the history of one Vern Miller. Fascinating criminal from the Depression era. A nasty guy indeed!
The movie about Vern Miller was mostly filmed in Bessemer, Alabama.
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Old 11-18-2020, 06:49 PM
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I think the Pedersen Device was on the road towards what would be the AW, however it would be defined by whomever decides these things.

It being semiauto only instantly takes it out of the race by todays standards as do a few other specifics.
But I feel the thought behind it's design, it's intended use by the troops and to what what end in WW1 it was to achieve on the stalled Western Front makes it an Assault Weapon.

FWIW, the Winchester M1907 was converted to FA by an enterprizing Texas gunsmith and leather-worker named Hyman Lebman.

By all accounts a low key guy, excellent craftsman in his different fields.
He had a liking for the Colt 1911 and experimented with and developed a F/A version. Some were Full/Semi auto.
This was just before NFA in the early 30's.
You could buy a TSMG and have it sent to your home.

He also converted the M1907 to a F/A design.

Some of his best customers were the likes of people named Dillinger, Gillis, VanMeter, ect.
He always said he thought they were just 'rich Texas oil folks'. Even had some of them to his house for dinner at times.

One of Lebman's 1911 FA conversion pistols (38super I believe) was used to kill an FBI agent at the Little Bohemia raid.
Lester Gillis was the shooter,,better known as Baby face Nelson.

Colt tinkered with FA 1911 pistols as well. Their design engineer Wm Swartz (Swartz Firing Pin Safety for the 1911) had one design that worked well but Colt never went anywhere with it.

The M1907 FA conversion did not show up much in the outlaw gangs hands though a couple have been noted.

The Feds went after Lebman after NFA went into effect.
They did arrest him at one point for possession of a 'stolen Govenment Property' Colt 1911 Pistol that he had in his shop.
That was in mid 1941.
With the outbreak of WW2 late that yr, the Fed Govt attention soon turned to other things and the case against Lebman was dismissed w/o further prosecution. I don't know the correct legal term for it.
He was never charged again in any firearms related incidents AFAIK.

Conversions of the M1907 are known to have been done by, or were done for and given to the Cuban Rebel forces during the Cuban Revolution in the 50's.

I've seen pictures of them. Usually shortened bbls and somewhat crude appearing conversions, the rifles then fitted with what appears to be perhaps 20rd detachable magazines.
The source and the ammo supply?, Don't know.
But being in the 1950's there were many military small arms on the worlds trade tables up for grabs. It must have been quite a closed off Island for them to have had to resort to doing that.
What ever works at the time...
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