Need help with an old .45

fl2calimelissa · #1 12-30-2020, 05:04 AM

Ok so I believe I have an old S&W .45. I don’t know for sure that it’s a S&W, just the searching I have done so far using “1132”(which is stamped multiple places on the gun) and “.45” have show S&W coming up repeatedly. Her are the answers to the 5 questions that are to be answered as the identifying your gun thread lists:

1. Top Break
2. “1132” is only thing listed on the butt of the gun
3. ACP .45 CAL
4. 5”
5. Fixed sights
Yes it does have a strain screw
I believe it had a lanyard loop but was cut off prior to m becoming in possession of the gun.

Wiregrassguy · #2 12-30-2020, 06:47 AM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! S&W didn't make a top break in .45 ACP or .45 Colt. Your gun does not appear to be a S&W from what I can see. We need some pictures that show the whole gun and any patent stampings on the top of the barrel. Someone here may be able to recognize the manufacturer.

gwpercle · #3 12-30-2020, 10:53 AM

More photo's would be a BIG help in proper ID .
Gary

rct269 · #4 12-30-2020, 11:36 AM

I'm having at least a modicum of difficulty rationalizing a top-break in .45 ACP caliber. .45 caliber I'll buy, but .45 ACP makes me want to start betting ridiculously large amounts of money it ain't so. Of course, if anybody jumps up offering to take such a bet, I'll be looking for a place to hide!

Ralph Tremaine

Wiregrassguy · #5 12-30-2020, 11:54 AM

Ralph, I believe I have seen some Webley top breaks that were converted to .45 ACP. One I saw didn't have much cylinder left after it exploded.

Sgt911 · #6 12-30-2020, 12:03 PM

Orbea Hermanos Top Break 5 Shot Double/Single Action Revolver, Mfd 1900 .45 Acp For Sale at GunAuction.com - 14987514
Might not be the exact model but appears they made copies of SW top breaks.

Jim Watson · #7 12-30-2020, 12:20 PM

The British, like the French, got hard up for sidearms and bought from Spain.
I think you have one of those, made in .455 Webley and cut for .45 ACP/AR.

As Wiregrassguy says, .45 ACP is an overload for a real Webley and under no circumstances would I shoot it in a Spanish knockoff of a Smith and Wesson.

BMur · #8 12-30-2020, 02:39 PM

Looks like a single action to me with the large side plate. Hard for me to believe that it's been machined to a 45ACP like the altered
"Double Action" 455 Webley's were?

These Single Actions most often mimic the 44 Russian caliber "OR" the 44 Winchester. Which just might chamber a 45ACP. I think we are making a mistake here with the caliber ID!

How exactly does one eject a 45 ACP with limited rim without moon clips? Unless it's a 45 Auto rim? Sorry, I'm not believing the 45ACP. That link that was posted? That's NOT a 45 ACP either. Look at the cylinder. It also has a 1900 patent date. The 45 ACP was introduced with the 1911. The chambers don't even look like they are 45 cal. So the seller also did not identify this caliber correctly, in my opinion.

It would also be rare in the 450 Webley. Those were seen in the Bulldogs but still scarce in that caliber. More often seen in the 44 Webley, 44 Russian, 44 Winchester. In fact I personally have never seen a 45 Webley in the single action Spanish copy.

Murph

Zzylx · #9 12-30-2020, 03:53 PM

The last pix shows a Belgian contollers mark without a crowned R
So pre 1894 Belgian smith copy. .450 is my bet for cal.

Sgt911 · #10 12-30-2020, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzylx

The last pix shows a Belgian contollers mark without a crowned R
So pre 1894 Belgian smith copy. .450 is my bet for cal.

looks more like it. This one has lanyard loop
Mexican marked Belgium copy of S&W Model 3 Russian mfg. by H. Pieper, Liege

fl2calimelissa · #11 12-30-2020, 06:56 PM

Ok first off, thank you for all the responses! don’t know why I didn’t turn to a forum for all the questions I have! Here are some more pictures, the whole gun shown and the top of the barrel shown....

Exapno-Mapcase · #12 12-30-2020, 08:44 PM

If it’s a single action then probably.45 S&W aka Schofield aka M1887 was a BP metallic cartridge for Smith & Wesson 3rd model. Just saying you guys already knew that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

merl67 · #13 12-30-2020, 09:06 PM

Definitely not Smith & Wesson probably Spanish, or Belgium copy if a 45 acp fits do not attempt to fire it because if it did fire it would likely require a ER trip could be chambered in 44 Russian or 44-40 though.

fl2calimelissa · #14 12-31-2020, 04:29 AM

Ok forgive me, very green around the ears in the gun world...so what CAL was this gun manufactured to shoot? It is ready to shoot I believe, other than the missing grips(which are being made at the moment) and were missing when I came in possession of the gun. So what rounds should be fired from this gun?

Justin T · #15 12-31-2020, 07:06 AM

There is a typical Belgian ELG egg-style proof on the cylinder in post 11.

Nobody on this forum can definitively tell you what caliber this is actually chambered in. Just reasonable guesses based on what we know from general histories. There is also no telling what has been done to this gun to modify it away from its original chambering (if that has actually been done). It could be .450 Adams, .45 Schofield, or any number of other chamberings.

Do you have the mainspring for this gun? None of your pictures show it installed. If you don’t have one, then I’d disagree with you about the gun being ready to shoot.

If you are serious about shooting it (I wouldn’t), then you need to have a gunsmith check it out, including chamber measurements to determine what cartridges might fit in it.

Jim Watson · #16 12-31-2020, 01:00 PM

Look at the top view, guys.
Am I seeing where the receiver "posts" through the top latch have been patched with weld or braze?

It hasn't been cut for .45 ACP, the cylinder proof mark is still there.

Zhuk has page after page of European S&W knockoffs, but I don't see the exact type there.

Justin T · #17 12-31-2020, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Look at the top view, guys.
Am I seeing where the receiver "posts" through the top latch have been patched with weld or braze?

It hasn't been cut for .45 ACP, the cylinder proof mark is still there.

Zhuk has page after page of European S&W knockoffs, but I don't see the exact type there.

I see what you see. And have also noticed this gun is incredibly rough, even for Belgian/local shop standards. Somebody’s been at it with a file.

2152hq · #18 12-31-2020, 01:27 PM

Belgian proof as Justin T points out.

In the first bunch of pics,,pic#4 shows a 2 letter mark on the inside of the grip frame...'RD' (?) Though it might be 'AD' with a bounced A stamp.
That is likely the marking/initial of the Belgian maker.

Spanish cottage arms makers often marked their guns in similar fashion. A 2 letter initial 'code' hidden or very small marking. Theirs usually in a circle or oval but not always.

There's always the possibility of a Spanish made product that was finished up in Belgium and then proofed in Belgium as the law demanded.

Justin T · #19 12-31-2020, 01:32 PM

OP can you provide a good picture of the other side of the gun? All you’ve shown us is the left side, with and without side plate. Right side may reveal more info.

fl2calimelissa · #20 12-31-2020, 11:21 PM

Ok so as requested here are some more pictures of the right side of the gun, up close of the hammer lock that locks the barrel down and can only be released by pulling the hammer back slightly, which releases the gun to break open. In the 3rd photo you Wil notice the A with a star (?) marking and that the only markings on that side of the gun. You will notice in these pictures that it does have a main spring which has been fabricated by my boyfriend who is a fabricator by trade and confident of his abilities and any work he has and will do on the gun. The trigger issue will also be fixed and x-rayed before the gun is ever fired. I have done a lot of work in clean this gun up and still have more to do I miss spoke when I said the gun is ready to be fired, I guess I should’ve said the gun could be but truly is not really ready to be fired safely.

cgt4570 · #21 01-01-2021, 12:00 AM

The last similar unknown foreign large frame top break I bought (in much, much better condition than yours but had a broken trigger return spring) I paid $100 for. I fixed it and traded it for a value of about $200.
Unless that's a priceless family heirloom, please don't put any money into that gun! It will never be worth what you put in it.
It's nearly worthless as pictured. Hang it on a wall and enjoy it. I would certainly never try to shoot it!
Good luck and Happy New Year.