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Old 12-31-2020, 10:54 AM
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Default What is this WW2 magazine fed long arm?

What is this long arm?


From an online article on Bill Jordan. I do not think it is him but was meant to illustrate that he survived cave clearing in the Pacific.

Link to article on Bill Jordan
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Old 12-31-2020, 10:58 AM
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Browning BAR in 30-06 full auto rifle the Germans feared this rifle.

Bonnie and Clyde used the bar rifle too.
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:00 AM
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Looks like a M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle.
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:03 AM
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Browning BAR in 30-06 full auto rifle the Germans feared this rifle.
They weren't the only ones. The Japanese didn't like it very much either. That photo is of a Marine fighting them in the Pacific theater.

John
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:03 AM
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Browning BAR in 30-06 full auto rifle the Germans feared this rifle.

Bonnie and Clyde used the bar rifle too.
Thanks
So the tube under the barrel is to bleed gas to activate the action.
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:04 AM
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BAR...heavy but effective...phased out of the USMC in favor of the M-60...
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:07 AM
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My Dad carried one for the last 6 months of the European war. They usually gave them to "big" guys. My Dad was 5'11" and 180 pounds and was big for the time. (145 lbs on VE day) He carried two bandoliers Pancho Villa style. Note that in the picture above the bipod and carry handle were removed. Dad said that's the first thing they did to save weight.

He said they seldom shot them other than 3 round bursts. Both because they didn't have a replaceable barrel, and because he said when the Germans heard a machine gun, they came after you first.
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:18 AM
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Guy I worked with carried one, he said the Army always picked the husky farm boys for the BAR.

Hard to say for sure, but the blasted look to the vegetation says "Peleliu" to me.

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Old 12-31-2020, 11:18 AM
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Know a Dude from the Bronx.
Before he became a Marine, Not sure he ever shot a gun.
BAR was a Squad Weapon, every Squad had one.
Another Big Guy who could keep up carrying a Heavy Weapon and a Big Ammo belt.
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Old 12-31-2020, 11:20 AM
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I think it was on the tales of the gun or the story of browning. There was two bar rifles in each squad, one fired while the other reloaded.

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Old 12-31-2020, 11:56 AM
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They were carried in the early days of Vietnam also . They were given to the ARVN , hard to figure that logic . If you can find one these days , better have a fat wallet .
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Old 12-31-2020, 12:37 PM
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I worked with a Korean War vet that had been a combat BAR Gunner. He said the M-1918 A2, 350 rpm cycle rate was too slow, and the 550 rate was too fast. So the GI field adaptation was to put a 50 cent piece behind the bolt. This shortened the bolt stroke by enough to increase the cycle rate by 50!

There were a few M-1918 A models floating around, they were semi-auto and 550 cycle rated, Most ended up in training camps and were not popular with the field troops.

In the movies and training films, you see BAR's shot standing and kneeling. But the truth was, you shot them laying down or from inside a stone building, because of concentrated return fire! and no firing from the hip (your limited supply of ammo was too valuable to waste on spray and pray!)

IN the fall, there were a couple full auto Thompsons that would sound off on Saturday afternoons, I had a 9mm MAC-10 and someone else had a 9mm, so we would join in on the party. One Thanksgiving weekend a BAR opened up and got everyone ALL EXCITED! For 32 years that was such a nice neighborhood to live in! (then I moved into a town, darn it!)

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Old 12-31-2020, 12:55 PM
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A good movie featuring the BAR is the "Sand Pebbles" w/Steve McQueen.
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Old 12-31-2020, 12:57 PM
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Default Good article.

Thanks for posting. I was a lucky one. The Vietnam draft ended when I was 17.
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:11 PM
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Even as a canuck and a student of history, I've heard a lot about the BAR. I believe Clyde Barrow (of Bonnie & Clyde fame) used to use one. Here's an interesting story. Years back, a buddy picked up a dewat BAR. They had all been flame cut across the top of barrel ahead of the receiver and cut through the ejection port and bolt. He found one where the receiver had been cut while the bolt was in retraction so all the internals were intact. Mind you, a dewat like that would no longer pass Canadian law, but I'm talking back in the early 80's. Later, he showed me the BAR dressed up. The receiver had been repaired and reblued so nicely you could barely see where the cut had been. I remarked on what a good job had been done on the receiver and barrel. He smiled in a sly way, and mentioned that a US buddy had given him a NOS BAR barrel! Need I say more?
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
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Even as a canuck and a student of history, I've heard a lot about the BAR. I believe Clyde Barrow (of Bonnie & Clyde fame) used to use one. Here's an interesting story. Years back, a buddy picked up a dewat BAR. They had all been flame cut across the top of barrel ahead of the receiver and cut through the ejection port and bolt. He found one where the receiver had been cut while the bolt was in retraction so all the internals were intact. Mind you, a dewat like that would no longer pass Canadian law, but I'm talking back in the early 80's. Later, he showed me the BAR dressed up. The receiver had been repaired and reblued so nicely you could barely see where the cut had been. I remarked on what a good job had been done on the receiver and barrel. He smiled in a sly way, and mentioned that a US buddy had given him a NOS BAR barrel! Need I say more?
Barrow was known to have modified his BARs (I use the term "his" loosely as they were all stolen from National Guard armories) by cutting down both barrel and stock. Easier to manipulate from a vehicle and I don't think you can conclude that Clyde or Bonnie, or any other member of his gangs, were concerned much about collateral damage. Against local officers usually armed with 38 Special revolvers, the firepower was devastating and allowed multiple escapes by the gang while under fire.

Several of the 9 known Leo's killed by the gang were murdered by BAR from either Clyde, his brother Buck, or gang member Henry Methvin.

They routinely did the same with early auto shotguns, notably the Remington Model 11, which Clyde called his "Whippet", for "whip it out ". Bonnie was known to have used a 16 gauge Whippet to murder at least one LEO.

At the time of their death in an ambush by Frank Hamer, Many Gault, and others (a BAR was used by posse member Ted Hinton, the only fully automatic weapon used by officers that day), the "Death Car" held multiple stolen BARs, 40 loaded magazines for same, and another 2000 rounds of ammunition. One of the BARs was in Clyde's lap at the time of his death.

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Old 12-31-2020, 01:25 PM
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We had one on a DD I was on.
The GM 1st class put a 50 gallon empty barrel over the side to shoot at.
Being a new Chief at the time(5'8", 160 lbs), he said go ahead, shoot at the barrel.
I was standing on the fantail and pulled the trigger....
Next thing the big GM is holding me up behind me laughing and said you can stop touching the trigger now.......
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:44 PM
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My grandpa lugged one across Europe fightin' nazis. He loved it. "If I got one of them in my sights they were deader than a door nail." One of his sayings.
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Old 12-31-2020, 01:55 PM
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Back in 1958, I had just turned 13 years old, and a neighbor across the street was in the Marine Corps reserve. He went to Camp Pendleton every summer for training. He said that in most of the outfits out here, the BAR'S were issued to some of the smallest guys, to toughen them up, I guess. Carrying that 18 or 19 lb weapon would tend to do that, I would think. LOL
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Old 12-31-2020, 02:21 PM
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I think Dilinger used them too. Might have used one at that hotel shootout.
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Old 12-31-2020, 02:25 PM
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They are still a substitute standard for the Philippine National Police. Last fired in anger during the Marawi City Seige in 2016.
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Old 12-31-2020, 02:41 PM
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When being followed by a "posse", Clyde Borrow would shoot out the back window of the stolen car he was in, then proceed to empty a 20 round mag into the front of the lead chase car. That usually ended any pursuit right there!

Clyde's great nephew was in school with me from 6th grade until we graduated (and later bought 1000's of cast projectiles too), he had family letters to various members of the family. Clyde was a firm endorser of Ford cars and Colt products (BAR's, Thompsons, and 1911's )! I tell you that it makes for a very interesting speech class, when the speech is about Clyde's view of robbing a bank!

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Old 12-31-2020, 02:52 PM
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I think Dilinger used them too. Might have used one at that hotel shootout.
Surprisingly, not much.

Thompsons, Winchester 351 1907s, "Whippets" in 12 gauge, sawed offs in 12 and 20, and a boatload of various Colt autos, revolvers, and a smattering of S&Ws too.

Of all the known Dillinger guns, displayed in both FBI Museum, the Dillinger Museum, and others only has 1 BAR, IIRC.

"Firepower " for them was mainly via Thompson or Winchester 1907s and 1911s modified to fully automatic by Texas gunsmith Hyman Lebman.

Which is kind of odd since he's thought to have robbed at least one National Guard armory.

Too heavy maybe? Too bulky under an overcoat perhaps?

(Sorry y'all, "Gangster Gats" are kind of a thing for me)

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Old 12-31-2020, 03:05 PM
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A friend of mine had a registered BAR that was made by Colt . It was a lot of fun to shoot . He sold it 3 years ago to a NFA dealer who paid big bucks to get it .
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Old 12-31-2020, 03:47 PM
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This photo is supposed to show Clyde. It definitely shows BARs and fits the time frame.


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Old 12-31-2020, 03:58 PM
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And here is FBI Special Agent John Core firing the “police version” of the BAR, the Colt Monitor, acquired by the FBI starting in 1933/34, likely in response to the events of the “public enemy era”.

Baby Face Nelson used a Monitor in his final shootout with agents, fatal for both sides.


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Old 12-31-2020, 05:42 PM
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And here is FBI Special Agent John Core firing the “police version” of the BAR, the Colt Monitor, acquired by the FBI starting in 1933/34, likely in response to the events of the “public enemy era”.

Baby Face Nelson used a Monitor in his final shootout with agents, fatal for both sides.


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The latter is actually a common misconception about Nelson's demise, egged on by both the movie "Dillinger " and the more recent "Public Enemies ".

For example both show Nelson dying in a shootout with Melvin Purvis while fleeing the Little Bohemia Lodge in April, 1934.

Nelson did kill 2 FBI agents at Bohemia, Carter Baum and Jay Newman, but he's recorded as doing so with a Lebman modified fully automatic 1911 in 38 Super. That comes from a survivor, Carl Christensen, who was shot during the incident. Nelson, using an extended magazine, sprayed the interior of the Agents car from a distance of less than a foot. Nelson later said Baum could have killed him, but it was later determined Baum hadn't released the thumb safety of his 1911 before Nelson opened fire.

Nelson was actually killed in Barrington, IL in November of 34. Several witnesses saw the final shootout and I understand there is a monument in Barrington to the event.

In Barrington, Nelson and killer Paul Chase (accompanied by Nelson's wife Helen who was driving) were spotted by FBI Agents Ed Hollis and Sam Cowley. After a rolling shootout, Nelson and Chase pulled over to ambush the pursuing Agents. Ambush happened, with Cowley fatally wounding Nelson with a 45 acp from a Thompson. After being shot, Nelson, using a fully automatic Winchester 1907 (again from Lebman) fatally shot both agents. Nelson, Chase and Helen Nelson managed to escape and "Baby Face" died later that night in Wilmette, IL.

Pretty different than the movies huh?

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Old 12-31-2020, 05:54 PM
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.... After being shot, Nelson, using a fully automatic Winchester 1907 (again from Lebman) fatally shot both agents. Nelson, Chase and Helen Nelson managed to escape and "Baby Face" died later that night in Wilmette, IL.

Pretty different than the movies huh?
That’s the conventional story of the Barrington battle.

But Stephen Hunter does a pretty convincing job dismantling it in this AR article. The forensic evidence and the circumstances clearly support the Monitor, rather than the 1907.

American Rifleman | A Battle At Barrington: The Men & The Guns
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Old 12-31-2020, 06:13 PM
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so these 2 Nazis walk into a BAR...


one of my late friends favorite jokes...
picture is me shooting his BAR..
it is one of my all time favorite firearms
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Old 12-31-2020, 06:34 PM
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OK, Combat TV trivia. Who manned the BAR on Combat?
Honor system. Don’t look it up.
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Old 12-31-2020, 08:07 PM
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I have one of the Ohio Ordnance 1918A3’s - semi auto only. Love to shoot it but it’s tough to feed in these days of ammo shortages. It’s a real beast of a weapon.
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Old 12-31-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ACORN View Post
OK, Combat TV trivia. Who manned the BAR on Combat?
Honor system. Don’t look it up.
Kirby. Played by Jack Hogan. Left hander...
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Old 12-31-2020, 08:25 PM
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Looks like that USMC BAR gunner in the op's pic also has a 1911a1 in his back pocket.
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Old 12-31-2020, 09:06 PM
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That’s the conventional story of the Barrington battle.

But Stephen Hunter does a pretty convincing job dismantling it in this AR article. The forensic evidence and the circumstances clearly support the Monitor, rather than the 1907.

American Rifleman | A Battle At Barrington: The Men & The Guns
I'm going from the official FBI investigation reports, IIRC, there were 2. I'm also going from memory of reading them. They're drier than unbuttered toast, but interesting reads nonetheless. There are certainly unanswered questions in both the previously posted materials and the AR story.

I'll try to find the links when I get home.

Regardless, the movie portrayals are hooey.

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Old 12-31-2020, 09:51 PM
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Regardless, the movie portrayals are hooey.
That for sure. The “Public Enemies” one annoyed me particularly, not just unhistoric, but not very well staged. Hard to understand since the real battle would have offered quite a bit more cinematically, and Burrough’s book which gave the film its title describes the fight in detail.
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Old 12-31-2020, 09:58 PM
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Regarding the BAR in combat, if I am not mistaken the BAR was often served by two troops or Marines. The second was an assistant BAR man who carried the extra ammo magazines. A very effective weapon.
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Old 12-31-2020, 10:00 PM
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Just finished “Public Enemies”. A very good book. Agent Newman was shot along with Agent Baum. Newman survived. Baum did not.



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The latter is actually a common misconception about Nelson's demise, egged on by both the movie "Dillinger " and the more recent "Public Enemies ".

For example both show Nelson dying in a shootout with Melvin Purvis while fleeing the Little Bohemia Lodge in April, 1934.

Nelson did kill 2 FBI agents at Bohemia, Carter Baum and Jay Newman, but he's recorded as doing so with a Lebman modified fully automatic 1911 in 38 Super. That comes from a survivor, Carl Christensen, who was shot during the incident. Nelson, using an extended magazine, sprayed the interior of the Agents car from a distance of less than a foot. Nelson later said Baum could have killed him, but it was later determined Baum hadn't released the thumb safety of his 1911 before Nelson opened fire.

Nelson was actually killed in Barrington, IL in November of 34. Several witnesses saw the final shootout and I understand there is a monument in Barrington to the event.

In Barrington, Nelson and killer Paul Chase (accompanied by Nelson's wife Helen who was driving) were spotted by FBI Agents Ed Hollis and Sam Cowley. After a rolling shootout, Nelson and Chase pulled over to ambush the pursuing Agents. Ambush happened, with Cowley fatally wounding Nelson with a 45 acp from a Thompson. After being shot, Nelson, using a fully automatic Winchester 1907 (again from Lebman) fatally shot both agents. Nelson, Chase and Helen Nelson managed to escape and "Baby Face" died later that night in Wilmette, IL.

Pretty different than the movies huh?
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Old 01-01-2021, 12:34 AM
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Looks like that USMC BAR gunner in the op's pic also has a 1911a1 in his back pocket.
Agree, a 1911 in the rear pocket. He’s ready for anything.
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Old 01-01-2021, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
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Looks like that USMC BAR gunner in the op's pic also has a 1911a1 in his back pocket.
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Originally Posted by Marlin57M View Post
Agree, a 1911 in the rear pocket. He’s ready for anything.
To be clear, you guys are reading a 1911 into that back pocket I've pointed out?

I'm having a hard time seeing that.


What is this WW2 magazine fed long arm?-okinawa-detail-jpg


Since somebody was speculating, the photo was taken on Okinawa on April 30, 1945.
.
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Old 01-01-2021, 01:13 AM
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And evolved into the modern day HCAR - pricey but worth it, if you have a decent pile of .30-06 to feed it. Soft shooting and fun as heck!
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Old 01-01-2021, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
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To be clear, you guys are reading a 1911 into that back pocket I've pointed out?

I'm having a hard time seeing that.


What is this WW2 magazine fed long arm?-okinawa-detail-jpg


Since somebody was speculating, the photo was taken on Okinawa on April 30, 1945.
.
May be a 1911 stuck butt first into the pocket with the muzzle sticking out. Look at the way it’s printing on the pocket. I am seeing the safety and slide release.
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:55 AM
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I took basic training at Ft Dix way back in the last century. When we got to the rifle range I noticed a BAR mounted on each side of the range tower. Before we started our shooting session they ran an ammo crate out about 150 yds and proceeded ventilate the crate with the BAR. They then explained that the BAR gunner on each side of the tower was there to make sure none of us decided to go Full Metal Jacket at the range. I felt the BAR was probably a very good choice for that demonstration.
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
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Regarding the BAR in combat, if I am not mistaken the BAR was often served by two troops or Marines. The second was an assistant BAR man who carried the extra ammo magazines..
An Army sergeant and veteran of
Korea said most everyone in a squad
was expected to carry an extra
cannister of BAR magazines. No
one wanted that weapon to go
hungry.
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:41 AM
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Just finished “Public Enemies”. A very good book. Agent Newman was shot along with Agent Baum. Newman survived. Baum did not.

You're right. Newman got shot in the head, but did make it.

The Ole Gray Memory just ain't what it used to be.
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Old 01-01-2021, 09:12 AM
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Back in 1958, I had just turned 13 years old, and a neighbor across the street was in the Marine Corps reserve. He went to Camp Pendleton every summer for training. He said that in most of the outfits out here, the BAR'S were issued to some of the smallest guys, to toughen them up, I guess. Carrying that 18 or 19 lb weapon would tend to do that, I would think. LOL
Might be something to that. One of the foreman I worked for was a Korea Vet. He said on more than one occasion he carried a BAR there and he was the smallest in his outfit.
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Old 01-01-2021, 09:59 AM
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My first exposure to the BAR was in high school Army ROTC as a teenager. We had one in the arms room, and we were instructed on how to take it apart.

I was fascinated with the gun, and on occasion, I'd go into the arms room and dry fire it - very impressive "clash" when you pulled the trigger, as it fired from an open bolt - and that bolt was massive.

I did not get to fire one until my college ROTC summer camp at Fort Lewis Washington. In "slow" mode you could tap off single shots - tactically an advantage so as not to reveal the full-auto capability in combat until you really needed it. It was heavy, but it absorbed recoil in firing very well and stayed on target easily.

When I was in the Army, the M14s with full-auto option were phasing out the M1 rifles and BARs, but the M14s were never very good in that mode - way too light and virtually uncontrollable. Most had the rock-n-roll option locked out so as to be semiauto only.

John
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Old 01-01-2021, 10:14 AM
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Getting this thread back on track with WWII BAR exploits, here is the story of Lucian Adams, a young man from Texas who used a BAR to win the Medal of Honor. His Citation:

While serving with the 30th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, in France, SSgt Adams' company was attempting to open supply lines; he single-handedly eliminated the enemy positions.[4] His citation reads:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty on 28 October 1944, near St. Die, France. When his company was stopped in its effort to drive through the Mortagne Forest to reopen the supply line to the isolated third battalion, S/Sgt. Adams braved the concentrated fire of machineguns in a lone assault on a force of German troops. Although his company had progressed less than 10 yards and had lost 3 killed and 6 wounded, S/Sgt. Adams charged forward dodging from tree to tree firing a borrowed BAR from the hip. Despite intense machinegun fire which the enemy directed at him and rifle grenades which struck the trees over his head showering him with broken twigs and branches, S/Sgt. Adams made his way to within 10 yards of the closest machinegun and killed the gunner with a hand grenade. An enemy soldier threw hand grenades at him from a position only 10 yards distant; however, S/Sgt. Adams dispatched him with a single burst of BAR fire. Charging into the vortex of the enemy fire, he killed another machinegunner at 15 yards range with a hand grenade and forced the surrender of 2 supporting infantrymen. Although the remainder of the German group concentrated the full force of its automatic weapons fire in a desperate effort to knock him out, he proceeded through the woods to find and exterminate 5 more of the enemy. Finally, when the third German machinegun opened up on him at a range of 20 yards, S/Sgt. Adams killed the gunner with BAR fire. In the course of the action, he personally killed 9 Germans, eliminated 3 enemy machineguns, vanquished a specialized force which was armed with automatic weapons and grenade launchers, cleared the woods of hostile elements, and reopened the severed supply lines to the assault companies of his battalion.

He was awarded the Medal of Honor on March 29, 1945.

His story on Wikipedia:

Lucian Adams - Wikipedia

I have his autograph.
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Old 01-01-2021, 10:20 AM
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Re: Pretty different than the movies huh?

Yep! That's the way it is in Realville.

Tinsel Town seldom gets it right with Realville.

Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 01-01-2021, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPEEDGUNNER View Post
Getting this thread back on track with WWII BAR exploits, here is the story of Lucian Adams, a young man from Texas who used a BAR to win the Medal of Honor. His Citation:

While serving with the 30th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, in France, SSgt Adams' company was attempting to open supply lines; he single-handedly eliminated the enemy positions.[4] His citation reads:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty on 28 October 1944, near St. Die, France. When his company was stopped in its effort to drive through the Mortagne Forest to reopen the supply line to the isolated third battalion, S/Sgt. Adams braved the concentrated fire of machineguns in a lone assault on a force of German troops. Although his company had progressed less than 10 yards and had lost 3 killed and 6 wounded, S/Sgt. Adams charged forward dodging from tree to tree firing a borrowed BAR from the hip. Despite intense machinegun fire which the enemy directed at him and rifle grenades which struck the trees over his head showering him with broken twigs and branches, S/Sgt. Adams made his way to within 10 yards of the closest machinegun and killed the gunner with a hand grenade. An enemy soldier threw hand grenades at him from a position only 10 yards distant; however, S/Sgt. Adams dispatched him with a single burst of BAR fire. Charging into the vortex of the enemy fire, he killed another machinegunner at 15 yards range with a hand grenade and forced the surrender of 2 supporting infantrymen. Although the remainder of the German group concentrated the full force of its automatic weapons fire in a desperate effort to knock him out, he proceeded through the woods to find and exterminate 5 more of the enemy. Finally, when the third German machinegun opened up on him at a range of 20 yards, S/Sgt. Adams killed the gunner with BAR fire. In the course of the action, he personally killed 9 Germans, eliminated 3 enemy machineguns, vanquished a specialized force which was armed with automatic weapons and grenade launchers, cleared the woods of hostile elements, and reopened the severed supply lines to the assault companies of his battalion.

He was awarded the Medal of Honor on March 29, 1945.

His story on Wikipedia:

Lucian Adams - Wikipedia

I have his autograph.
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Old 01-01-2021, 03:22 PM
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My honorary nephew organizes a machinegun match over in Lancaster County, PA. A number of owners of full automatic firearms will allow others, for a fee, to shoot these guns. The last time I was there someone had brought a BAR. I paid the fee and got to shoot a magazine full of shells out of it. That was a lot of fun. If I ever win the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes I'll be looking for one.
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