With all due respect, you are talking apples and oranges here. With the original Victories, the hammer block was a small flat spring wedged in the sideplate. With congealed lubricant or rust, it could not project as envisioned, allowing the hanmer to go forward if struck. S&W changed the hammer block to a sliding component, the same system used today.

I have never heard of an M1911 going off because of falling on its hammer. Even if it's cocked and the hammer slips off the sear, the sear will catch in the "half cock" notch and the hammer will never connect with the firing pin. John Browning knew what he was doing.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Sorry, but that story is pretty much bravo sierra. There are many accounts of WWI M1911s with magazines fully loaded during or shortly after that war being fired normally even in the late 1990s.

Spring setting can happen, but it's usually the result of repeated loading and unloading, not being left fully loaded for a long time.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

i did 2 1 month rotations as the corporal or the guard on the main area of Camp Pentledon, fall of 71 and late spring of 72, both times with a 1911, in condition, 2 magazines 1 in the gun and a spare. I don't know that of anyone in the USMC carrying a 1911 in condition 1 during that time period

To put the sentence the other way, that's exactly what I am saying - the 1911 was NOT designed by JMB to be carried in Condition 1, there is NO evidence of that whatsoever, and it is Army requested re-designs that enable the pistol to be effectively carried in Condition 1. If you look at the comments above, if you go to the Army Field Manual, it becomes clear. The underlying issue here was JMB's intent, a search for proof that he intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition 1. None exists.

All of the rest above is delightful commentary and discussion, and interesting anecdotal military history.

Same reason as yours except I don't carry a 1911, I carry defensive tools that I like better. But that was never the point of this discussion.

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Come and take it!!

It's a different dead horse, but if one looks at page 20 of that linked field manual, the use of the slide stop to release the slide to load the pistol is the method indicated

Gentlemen, some of us were trained to use the M1911A1 as an offensive weapon.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

“The underlying issue here was JMB's intent, a search for proof that he intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition 1. None exists.”

Do you have a quote from JMB for condition 2.
Great engineering. The quote is in the design. If you were an engineer you would be able to read it like a quote.

My own fault for not seeing the bridge.

The mechanics of it may be BS, but the fact of some in the military only being allowed five rounds in two magazines is not, at least in the Navy. During the 80s I saw shipmates on more than one vessel only issued ten rounds total (in two magazines), and no magazine was allowed in the weapon.

Although guns were always an interest of mine, in 20 years in the Navy, the only time I was given any firearms training was in 92, at a small base in northeast Scotland. By then, things had changed. We had good instructors (Marine cadre, fresh from the first Gulf War), 1911s and M-14s. Full seven rounds in the mags, mag in the gun. We still had to carry Condition Three on duty, but we also trained on Condition One. When drawing from a flap holster, racking the slide doesn't add that much time to first shot. We also practised one-hand racks (with live ammunition), and nobody got hurt. We usually shot Weaver, but also one-handed sometimes.

Totally off-topic: The Ministry of Defence Police we sometimes worked with were among the few to actually be armed routinely. They carried Browning High Powers in Condition Three.

I taught the course that you are referring to. I was the original Cadre at NS Long Beach. Basically, we were teaching the course at Gunsite, Automatic Pistol, Revolver and Shotgun. Was interesting for all involved, both student and teacher.............

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Won't fly.........ALL striker fired pistols are "cocked" or "semi cocked" all the time.

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S&W Accumulator

How is that different from a striker fired pistol? Pull the trigger, it goes Bang. Either way.

Actually a condition 1 1911 requires 3 things to happen.
1. grip safety depressed.
2. manual safety disengaged
3. trigger press
Most striker fired guns:
1. trigger press
Now, which is going to LOOK safer to a JURY of housewives and hairdressers who know nothing about guns?

I'll give your post an AMEN!

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S&W Accumulator

How many people shoot themselves in the *** with a Glock vs 1911 derivatives? That's the true measure of the safety of a firearm. It is all about protecting the stupid from themselves.

The only safety is between your ears. Everything else is a mechanical control that can fail. I never use the safeties on my target pistols. Why would you need to? (except for certain range rules during competition likely)

iF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE MECHANICS OF EACH 1911 IGNITION PARTS IN CONDITION 1 The hammer is cocked ,sear engaged and mechanically blocked by the safety .The hammer can' fall..The grip safety just blocks the TRIGGER ,It does not lock the hammer in any position the sear could move off of the hammer ,the sear could slip and the hammer fall firing the cartridge .This cant happen with the hammer cocked and the safety on . As a personal preference I carry cocked and locked (condition 1)Also for old people it is hard to rack the slide with the hammer downto get a cartridge into the chamber

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age is just a number

If anyone is getting too old to manipulate their chosen self-defense gun with absolute authority, they should give up that type of gun. You don‘t want to find yourself with a jam in the middle of a pickle to realize your hands are too weak. I hung up my Para-Ordnance 1911 that was my primary carry for many years and simplified back to K/J-frames for exactly that reason. As Clint Eastwood once said, a man‘s got to know his limitations

A friend has a gun shop and when I am bored I go and hang out. Lots of older couples come in and the husband will say "I want to see a 9 MM". I give it to them and ask him to rack the slide. When he has trouble or can not rack the slide, I mention a wheelgun......

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Late to the party, but a couple of observations. As a Naval Officer in the 70’s I periodically carried a 1911 in the line of duty. Usually some sort of security situation. Always carried in condition 3. This was a personal decision and not a directive. Never had any training on the 1911by the military. Fortunately, I was trained prior to service. In one such security situation the Admiral’s Aide tried to convince me I needed to carry the 1911 empty. No magazine, no ammo. No dice, I replied. Finally got the Admiral involved and explained my concerns. He told the Aide to round me up a “clip” and some “shells”.
The Army manual, pg 25 states that condition 1 is much safer than condition 2. I think most of us agree in this day and age. The 1911 was designed a military arm. Carrying a 1911 for civilian defensive purposes is a whole different ball game. In military use, the need for instantaneous deployment is pretty rare. As a civilian carry piece, the need to draw and fire rapidly is much more likely, and condition 1 is the safest and most reasonable way to carry. I doubt Mr. Browning gave that scenario much consideration.

If you look at some other of Mr. Browning's designs such as the Colt 1903/1908,they are clearly designed to be carried in Condition 1. Even the contemporaneous advertisements talk about the "safety" afforded by the grip safety over just that of the side safety/slide lock.

I'd point out that these designs were "POCKET Hammerless" in those ads you mention, designed for, uh...pockets, and civilian use.

The next Model JMB did was the 1907-1910 series, which had no thumb safety at all, until the Army requested one for the final phase of the 1911 trials.

Just a thought, but apples to oranges comparing a civilian inspired arm to one that was almost from the beginning for military service and designed to be holstered.

Irregardless of who the safeties were added for ( Cavalry, etc.) they would only be needed if there is a round in the chamber. Hammer back, hammer down or halfcock is a different argument but if it’s carried with an empty chamber a safety is not required.
To me then it seems as if was designed to be carried chambered and the safeties were added to do that ‘safely’ depending on how it’s being carried.
Having been in the Army, I can’t imagine that in the beginning when this new type of firearm was being issued that there was not a thorough manual of arms issued with it concerning how it was to be carried and that none have survived.

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“Look life in its iron face”

We taught a several ways to rack the slide on a Condition 3 weapon. These were mainly one handed, some using just the weak hand. Off the toe of your boot was pretty interesting.

Also did one hand weak hand shooting with a 12 ga. pump shotgun. That really was an attention getter.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

If nothing else, this thread brought back 45 year old memories of illusions that Thai stick could produce, I heard.

The manuals have survived and have been referenced in this thread a couple of times.
Copies are readily available online.

Here's the summary of the original manuals:

Condition 3



(Sorry for selectively editing your post, I only wanted to address the latter portion)

I think one of the reasons for the safeties on a gun meant to be carried with an empty chamber is the ability to safely reholster after shooting a few rounds - say a cavalryman who engaged some bandits and then needed to dismount. Flip up the safety, reholster, clear it later.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I CCW a 1911 full size and carry in condition 1. In the house it's still condition 1. As for the lawyers having a field day with condition 1, a revolver is fully loaded and no safety is engaged. Merely pull the trigger. Much like condition 1 except for the safety part.

I doubt Mr. Browning did anything un-intentionally.

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In Omnia Paratus

Certainly not. On the other hand, unless someone has quotable writings by him, I doubt he wasted any mental energy on the idea that there had to be a “right“ way to carry a gun, or on military doctrine regarding degrees of readiness.

After all, until the arrival of semi-automatic double action thirty years later, there was no other way to deal with the question. It pertained to ALL pistols. I need to check whether there have ever been heated discussions in Germany whether the “right” way to carry the Luger was Condition 1 or 3.

Haven't perused the original German manuals (and I don't read or speak German) so I can't help you there.

But IIRC, there were more than a few WW1 and 2 GIs that wounded themselves after being confused by the "backwards " safety lever on the P08 and stuffing one in their belt while in Condition 1.

Ouch. Definitely gonna leave a mark.

I’m surprised nobody has cited the original primary source i.e., Ordnance Dept. manual No. 1866, page 13. The implied primary carry method is, magazine full and empty-chamber. The emergency carry is cock-and-locked with a full magazine.
Side-note, the manual also issues the “modern” use of trigger-discipline when using the firearm.

Description of the automatic pistol, caliber .45, model of 1911; with rules for management, memoranda of trajectory, and description of ammunition ... April 1, 1912 : United States. Ordanace dept : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Thank you posting that! Now we have the Army's view from 1914. Aside from the method-of-carry info posted above, I noticed a couple of interesting things on a quick read-through: First, the trigger pull was stated as being between 6-7 1/2 pounds. People who criticize trigger weight on some designs (such as issued 1911s and FN's Browning High Power), should remember that heavier trigger pulls were specified by the customer (and for good reasons). My 76C BHP breaks at approximately 6 crisp pounds and I am quite happy with it! Second, the ammunition velocity was stated to be just over 800 fps in the 1911, which tells us just what the Government expected (and what we should expect out of our FMJ ammunition). Third, look at the dispersion and accuracy tables in that manual. If they were using stock guns as examples for the manual, then those early 1911s were accurate, even when fired rapidly.

I am one of those who thinks that the day of the .45 ACP and the 1911 is long done as far as a military purchased and issued weapons system. I also think that the 1911 were hands-down the best handgun of the World War I era and the next few decades.

Not so fast..........The M1911 platform is still in the hands of some specialized troops.

Colt M45A1 CQBP: the MARSOC pistol | GUNSweek.com

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The M45a1, adopted for some MARSOC units in 2012 (the article is from 2016) have largely been replaced in service by...I hate to even say it...Glocks.

There's some interesting reading from Military.com that details the troop requests regarding performance in "the Sandbox " and the increased maintenance of the 1911s vs Glocks.

Not saying they're 100% gone, but there don't appear to be many left in service.

(the original USMC M45a1s command a HUGE premium when encountered, enough that fakes are now a problem).

News flash. A determined prosecutor or defense attorney will come after you, even if your weapon of choice is a single shot, flintlock dueling pistol.

Those of us who CC some version of a 1911 firearm likely carry in Condition 1, ie, draw, flip safety and employ.

But in the military, a sidearm is a secondary weapon, and would most likely be used after the primary weapon was disabled. Excepting of course things like the RVN tunnel rats and the like. So avoiding soldier's accidental discharges, which still happen, there would be time to chamber and employ. AD's and ND's still happen to experienced shooters, and with cleaning and handling of pistols by great numbers of troops it would be safer to have 1911's not chambered.

Of course, once the trooper was issued his sidearm, if no one was checking or caring, I am sure many were chambered. As I posted earlier, I don't recall how I carried my 1911 in RVN. Probably not chambered since I had to clean and oil it so often.

Just some random thoughts before more coffee this morning.

All the best, and stay safe. SF VET

As stated a determined lawyer will come after you no matter what or how you carried you weapon. That said I have worked with a lot of law enforcement that carried Condition 1. They did not seem to worry about how they carried their issue firearm.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The story is told of a lady addressing a state trooper who had just pulled her car over for a violation. She looked at his holstered cocked and locked 1911 and said "That gun is cocked. Isn't that dangerous?"

The reply from the trooper:

"Damn betcha!"

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Similar story told about one of the Texas Rangers, one of the Captains (sorry, can't recall the name) who served alongside Frank Hamer in the 30s, who was still using his 1911 (engraved I'd imagine ) many years later when Rangers were reorganized and required to "qualify " with their duty guns.

The young beaurocrat who was running the process noticed his 1911 cocked and locked and asked him if it wasn't dangerous to be carrying that way?

Capt replied, " Sonny, if it wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be carrying it ".

I read this story IIRC in the biography of Frank Hamer ( which is a GREAT book).

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No military background or experience. Just LE, training and instructing, plus CC Instructor.

In that vein - anything short of Condition 1, dictates that your 'offside' hand is totally healthy and unoccupied so that it will be wholly ready and capable of properly racking the slide to ready the pistol.

Except - Murphy.... who happens to attend many, many bad events.
Your offside hand may be occupied and engaged in sweeping away one of your children, your spouse, be physically engaged in fending off an aggressor.
Just IMHO, it's always been a very big assumption that you'll have the luxury of two ready hands in a critical span of a few seconds to properly work a slide.
And, this is not 1911-centric, this applies to any auto pistol.

All this may be giving JMB a headache in heaven.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

I dunno...I kinda think he'd be watching all this while munching on popcorn.

To anyone with Photoshop skills, I think we need a picture of JMB eating popcorn.

Does this apply to LEO's as well?

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Have Canon, Will Travel

That's why it's important to be able to articulate your reasoning for that choice and have a lawyer who can effectively defend against such attempts.

I'm not a fan of condition 1 carry. The pistol was not designed to be carried that way, and IMO, it's just too dangerous. I don't know if there are any documented cases of a parts failure causing an unintended discharge . However, a pistol is simply a piece of equipment with small parts that need to be in perfect sync. as a group. Small parts can fail, it's as simple as that. in a 1911, the disconnector, sear, hammer, and safety are all under a high load, provided by the mainspring. And any of those parts could fail. I'm a fan of the Detonics pistol. It is designed to be carried in condition 2; the rear sight being moved forward so the thumb has good purchase to cock the hammer as the gun is drawn. Just sayin'

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John

Remember too that in the military, a sidearm is going to be in some sort of retention holster, and that too takes time to make the firearm ready for employment. I suspect when expecting contact, that most would be chambered, allowing one more round in the tube for those making the effort to do so. I also suspect the hammer/safety would be wherever the wearer wanted or left it.

The further one is from HQ the less likely anyone cares. Heck, when I was in SF, we jumped with our weapons slung over our shoulder, while the regular airborne troops jumped with theirs in these big padded cases. Then too, I jumpmastered once at night along the Russian boarder, and whacked the side of the aircraft, and lost my M16. I found it stuck in the ground like a spear, bent, all the plastic shredded off, but at least I had a rifle to turn back in, no one cared about it.

All the best, and stay safe. SF VET

——-+++++++++++.
I have a different view of training, I think if you are capable enough to to use a complex item that you could start training with it from day one.
Many folk are issued Glocks (I own and shoot several) and there are numerous reports of Accidental Discharges. With proper instruction I believe the 1911 may be safer.
Military Pilot training starts training in retractable landing gear in the first few hours with no significant problems. General aviation pilots with hundreds of hours flying fixed gear and then taking up retractable gear aircraft might forget to extend the gear and land with gear up in situations of stress where they might revert to the old habit of flying aircraft with fixed gear.
This isn’t to denigrate any pilot, but I am trying to make the point that with adequate training most people can master any complex piece of equipment.
Adequate training is essential.

Condition 1 is not for everybody, and there's nothing wrong with not being comfortable with it.

With that said, it would take multiple parts failures for a 1911 to just fire by itself. There would have to be a failure of the hammer-sear engagement, then a failure of the half-cock notch. If you have a 1911 with a firing pin block, that would have to fail, too. It may have happened at some point in time, but I've never heard of it.

I've heard of 1911s going full-auto, but that's with guns with super light trigger jobs, where the hammer-sear engagement is practically a razor's edge. It's one of the reasons I like my 1911s with heavier trigger pulls. My carry 1911 has had a trigger job, but I specified a 4.5-5.0lb pull. I don't have a trigger pull gauge, but I can say it's heavier than the SA pull on either of my DA/SA Berettas. Not only is it more durable, but I can definitely feel the weight even with gloves on, which helps mitigate the potential for NDs while under stress.

One more time: as noted by me just a few posts above and by others on this forum, we were trained to rack the pistol one-handed if both hands are not available. There are good reasons to argue for carrying the 1911 either in Condition One or Condition Three, but the myth that you can't rack the pistol unless you have both hands free isn't one of them.

I can't remember who said it (Chuck Taylor, maybe...?), but I read that if you can learn to drive, you can learn to run a 1911. There's a certain amount of truth in that, I think. Of course, the difference is how much time is spent "practicing" driving versus practicing with a pistol. The 1911 isn't for everybody, and running one isn't exactly rocket surgery, but I think it does take a bit more commitment than, say, a DA revolver or a Glock.

And there have been police agencies that either issued or authorized 1911s. I think it was Tacoma PD that made the gun news some years back when they selected Kimber 1911s as their standard issue pistol. I don't know if it's still the case, but I know the El Monte (CA) PD issued 1911s for several years. And I believe sometime after the North Hollywood shootout the LAPD allowed their rank-and-file officers to carry 1911s after completing a transition course; not sure if that's still the case.

True, and I do practice one-handed racking for reloads and malfunction clearing, but C1 is still going to be faster and more efficient than C3, in my opinion.

Eh... 1911s are archaic ancient pistols. The Colt 1903, which is an older design, is better suited for personal civilian carry. I say any condition of 1911 is better than having no gun at all. I like the "cocked locked and hot" however some people have a problem with that. The biggest problem is "weak" firing pin springs and dropped guns resulting in accidental discharges. New and upgraded "series 70" guns not a problem however an old ancient unfamiliar GI or Government model I would treat differently.