Could use some help, as may be outdated as what assistance to expect from gun dealer. Bought a new Henry "x" side gate model for premium price from established dealer. Took home and followed instructions to clean it before firing. After cleaning the bore from factory test firing, looked up through bore from breech, saw a straight "track" the length of bore that including some tearing into the rifling with several little jagged bits of metal strung off. Took it back to dealer and explained situation to them.

The manager explained to me they don't accept "returns" and it was on me to return rifle for warranty service. Politely explained to him reason some use established dealers is they stand behind what they sell, and manufacturers have tendency to pay more attention to dealers than people off the street. Then there is dealing with shipping from non-licensed people, which is a pain. He did let me use the phone for one phone call to manufacturer, but explained they didn't make the rifling blunder, so it wasn't their problem. Also indicated they had to "transfer" the firearm back and forth if they sent it back to manufacturer.

For a little background, was one of their first members of their modern indoor range, and have spent almost $8,000 there since it opened. Then politely explained had previously brought back a new shotgun with similar problem, and they had contacted the manufacturer and gotten replacement. The shotgun was the only other time had brought anything back.

I could understand this business tact if i had only used them for a transfer, but will not buy anything more from them.

Am i being old fashioned, or is this the new standard practice?

I can't speak to the dealer, other than I echo your sentiment. HOwever, I think that Henry will bend over backwards to take care of the situation. The owner really prides himself in the product-line and customer service.

Pretty standard stuff around here. I don't know of an LGS that would do anything other than help you connect with the factory for a warranty return. After all, the LGS didn't issue the warranty. The factory did . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Sorry that you had a bad experience with Henry. I echo sentiment above that it will likely be made good. I have two Henry's, I think the most resent from 15 years ago. They have been flawless range guns. Dealers can get away with anything these days as anything will sell. to somebody My LGS would return it for me. Good luck!

Around here once the transfer is complete, it’s yours.

Henry’s customer service is great though. I had small crack in a H001 stock, they had a replacement stock to me in 3 days.

Just send it to Henry yourself, they will fix or replace it.

I bought a new 1911 from a local shop and paid $60 for the “ shop warranty”. They would take care of minor issues if they come up.
So the plunger tube came loose, and the local shop sent it back to the
factory for repair. I am OK with that, and it is worth $60 to me not to deal
with the manufacturer directly. For a new pistol, I would rather have the factory do the repair under warranty. Willyboy

The return policy op speaks of is nothing new at all. When I was gun dept. manager in mid 70s in Denver, we made it clear on the sales receipt that any defect in the firearm was to be taken up with the manufacturer not the retailer.

Given the experience you have with them I would expect, at the least, they would facilitate the return to the factory and accept the return. It would be nice if they picked up the outbound postage but I wouldn't hold it against them if they didn't. As you say, I would find another place to spend my money, but with little hope or expectation that doing so would change anything.

Contact Henry; I would not be surprised if they don't send you a pre-paid shipping label. Just pack it and send it to them. You do not need to go thru an FFL for that

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

Standard. They're a retail outlet not the manufacturer or authorized service center.

Surely the manufacturer will just send you a shipping label, etc.

I'd bet that of you call Henry they will make arrangements to get the rifle back and repair or replace it with no cost to you.

As far as the Dealer goes - I think he is a poor businessman and I would not patronize his store any longer! Over the years I have had a couple of problems with different guns I've purchased and the Dealer I bought them from was happy, willing and able to send them back for me. I doubt it cost the Dealer any out of pocket money (aside from the small job of repacking the gun) as the manufacturer probably pays the shipping both ways.

I believe your LGS owner is not only a poor businessman but a fool as well. Valued customers are not to be thrown away!

I don’t know that they see us as valued customers anymore. There are 20 more lined up behind us just hankering to get in......the service model has shifted......and it is not in our favor.

Well, Henry immediately accepted the rifle and will email me when they finish. The ladies were very nice to me, and they are obviously very busy.

While service standards appeared to have changed, if am buying anymore guns will just have them transferred to little shop for $25. Would never expect to get warranty service included with that style of arrangement.

If large established dealers aren't providing the the same level of service, will not be willing to pay their higher prices. Am of opinion gun buying dynamics will eventually revert again, and likely fewer customers.

Thanks to all who shared, am appreciative. Have been pretty isolated for awhile.

Glad they're taking care of it. And if you need to, pop over to the Lounge sometime and say Howdy!

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The best I can with what I got

Y'all have some weird ideas. They didn't make the defective item? They are just a retail store?


if I buy a new lawn mower and take it home and find out that the motor won't start, I don't get on the phone to Toro. I take it back to the lawn mower store. If I buy a new truck and as I pull into the driveway the engine explodes, I don't get on the phone to GM. It goes back to the car lot I bought it from.


And if I buy a defective gun, it will go back to the gun shop. The dealer will either refund my money, or send the gun back for warranty work, or see me in the courthouse.


"All sales are final" means that I can't take it home and change my mind and bring it back and get my money back. But there's no way it covers "I sold you a piece of junk and you're stuck with it".

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I always take precautions

As many have found out on the steps of the courthouse, it actually does cover that for a dealer that didn't do anything but unbox it and chain it to the shelf. Your recourse is always with the manufacturer. Even with a new car sale, if the manufacturer won't cover the problem, the dealer ain't gonna. The dealer will do the work, because the factory authorizes them to and pays them to. Not so much with guns . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

This is a very good reminder to carefully inspect a gun before you accept it at the shop. Give it a good look over.

If you're not happy, tell them you'd like them to order another for you. At that point, it is still their responsibility as you haven't taken possession.

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- Jeff

Every shop is going to have their own policy. Some take returns some don't. That's why it's important to thoroughly inspect a firearm prior to 4473 & taking possession.

I honestly don't want the shop involved with any issues unless they'll give me a complete refund. I much prefer to deal directly with the manufacture. It's easier, as the manufacturer will ship it directly back to you (unless it's a replacement with a different serial number). I've had 3 returns to manufacturers in the past 2 years. 2 were on used guns I bought. All were taken care of to my satisfactory with no cost to me.

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Watch & Pray

This brings up something else you may be faced with. The LGS has already paid for that gun you ordered, and they generally can't send it back. If it's something unusual that they'll have a hard time selling to someone else, the LGS may be reluctant to order another that you might also refuse. And if you've done this to the LGS before, it'll be cash up front and no refund. I've seen this in action. My LGS has several "I ordered this for a guy and he didn't like it when it came in" pieces, and it's not just guns . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The dealer didn't make the gun. The manufacturer should send you a pre-paid shipping label. There are no restrictions for sending a gun back to the manufacturer and when repaired they will send it to your address. Pretty simple process and nothing to get worked up about. The manufacturer wants the end user to be happy and cares less for the dealer.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

In every state I’m aware of the business which sells a product is legally obligated to stand behind it for certain defects, in addition to the manufacturer. If a shop sells me garbage and won’t stand behind it I will never spend money there again. I expect higher morals than if I had purchased a counterfeit Rolex out of the trunk of a car.

About 5 or 6 years ago I bought a brand new Les Baer 1911 from a shop. It had five distinct problems on it and should have never left Les Baer in that condition. I called the LGS where I got it, I brought it in, and they were left shaking their head with the problems it had.

They did not take the pistol back, they have no obligation to do so under any state law. Les Baer doesn't give free shipping either. The dealer was nice enough to ship it back, 2nd Day, to Les Baer on their account, for free.

I sent it back with a letter clearly outlining how it didn't meet their descriptive language used in their own catalog. They fixed every problem I outlined in my letter. It came back working the way it should have in the first place.

Personally I can't fault the dealer, on a new gun especially. You should've inspected it better before you left with it. Once you leave it's between you and the manufacturer. If it's really an issue from the factory I can't think of any decent company that won't send out a prepaid shipping label. Not sure why you would need a middle man for that process, or why you would want one. Inspect all your purchases before final sale and advocate for yourself with the companies when needed. Save the blame game for when someone actually does you wrong...

Dan,

Are you saying the dealer is legally obligated to stand behind a product, or the manufacturer? Just curious.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act a manufacturer can say there is no warranty and the firearm is sold "as is." But, those companies will stand behind the product anyway.

I've heard Henry commercials on John Gresham's "Gun Talk" radio show. I have no doubt the OP will have any trouble having Henry fix the problem.

At least a half dozen states don't allow this . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

For certain defects, yes, a commercial seller is bound by statutory warranties which cannot be waived by the consumer.
Below is one example of a law presently in effect. Other states have laws that are very similar but commonly omit the penalties and attorney’s fees. The formatting and numbering below is not accurate because I am pasting text on a phone screen.
——————————————————-
Unless disclaimed in the manner prescribed by this chapter, every sale of consumer goods that are sold at retail in this state shall be accompanied by the manufacturer's and the retail seller's implied warranty that the goods are merchantable.  The retail seller shall have a right of indemnity against the manufacturer in the amount of any liability under this section.

As used in this chapter:

(a) “Implied warranty of merchantability” or “implied warranty that goods are merchantable” means that the consumer goods meet each of the following:

(1) Pass without objection in the trade under the contract description.

(2) Are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used.

(3) Are adequately contained, packaged, and labeled.

(4) Conform to the promises or affirmations of fact made on the container or label.

(b) “Implied warranty of fitness” means (1) that when the retailer, distributor, or manufacturer has reason to know any particular purpose for which the consumer goods are required, and further, that the buyer is relying on the skill and judgment of the seller to select and furnish suitable goods, then there is an implied warranty that the goods shall be fit for such purpose and (2) that when there is a sale of an assistive device sold at retail in this state, then there is an implied warranty by the retailer that the device is specifically fit for the particular needs of the buyer.

(c) The duration of the implied warranty of merchantability and where present the implied warranty of fitness shall be coextensive in duration with an express warranty which accompanies the consumer goods, provided the duration of the express warranty is reasonable;  but in no event shall such implied warranty have a duration of less than 60 days nor more than one year following the sale of new consumer goods to a retail buyer.  Where no duration for an express warranty is stated with respect to consumer goods, or parts thereof, the duration of the implied warranty shall be the maximum period prescribed above.

(d) Any buyer of consumer goods injured by a breach of the implied warranty of merchantability and where applicable by a breach of the implied warranty of fitness has the remedies provided in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 2601) and Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 2701 ) of Division 2 of the Commercial Code, and, in any action brought under such provisions, Section 1794 of this chapter shall apply.

(a) Any buyer of consumer goods who is damaged by a failure to comply with any obligation under this chapter or under an implied or express warranty or service contract may bring an action for the recovery of damages and other legal and equitable relief.

(b) The measure of the buyer's damages in an action under this section shall include the rights of replacement or reimbursement as set forth in subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2 , and the following:

(1) Where the buyer has rightfully rejected or justifiably revoked acceptance of the goods or has exercised any right to cancel the sale, Sections 2711 , 2712 , and 2713 of the Commercial Code shall apply.

(2) Where the buyer has accepted the goods, Sections 2714 and 2715 of the Commercial Code shall apply, and the measure of damages shall include the cost of repairs necessary to make the goods conform.

(c) If the buyer establishes that the failure to comply was willful, the judgment may include, in addition to the amounts recovered under subdivision (a), a civil penalty which shall not exceed two times the amount of actual damages.  This subdivision shall not apply in any class action under Section 382 of the Code of Civil Procedure or under Section 1781 , or with respect to a claim based solely on a breach of an implied warranty.

(d) If the buyer prevails in an action under this section, the buyer shall be allowed by the court to recover as part of the judgment a sum equal to the aggregate amount of costs and expenses, including attorney's fees based on actual time expended, determined by the court to have been reasonably incurred by the buyer in connection with the commencement and prosecution of such action.

(e)(1) Except as otherwise provided in this subdivision, if the buyer establishes a violation of paragraph (2) of subdivision (d) of Section 1793.2 , the buyer shall recover damages and reasonable attorney's fees and costs, and may recover a civil penalty of up to two times the amount of damages.

zeke, It would be nice if those local "established dealers" we are supposed to support, supported us. Some actually do, unfortunately many more don't seem to, no matter how much money we have spent there. There is a small LGS in an adjoining town that does actually provide great customer service. That does not seem to be the norm now days. I believe "Be loyal, buy local" more and more translates to, " Why go elsewhere to be screwed, when you can shop here?"

FWIW, over the last half century or so I have sent several firearms back
to manufacturers. I prefer to send them myself, along with a polite and detailed letter as to the reason I'm sending it back. Now days, the manufacturers I've dealt with have sent a prepaid shipping label, and returned the firearm after repair at N/C. By sending it myself, I eliminate any delays or misunderstandings that may occur with the local shop, track it to and from the manufacturer, and unless the manufacturer replaces the firearm as happened recently, it gets delivered back to my door, etc....YMMV

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Practical translation: "Call the factory. Here's the number . . ."

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

No, practical translation is “The seller must make the customer whole, and then the seller can get reimbursement from the manufacturer if the problem was the manufacturer’s fault.”

The rifle was carefully inspected before purchase. Most new guns are test fired at the factory, as this one was. To have found the defective manufacturing of the barrel interior, would have had to dissemble and clean it in the store. Am doubtful any store owner would permit this, i sure wouldn't.

Shipping a rifle from here is not easy, and certainly not cheap. No matter what the law or business procedures allows, there is how the local shipper treats the shipping of firearms. Traveling to a city large enough to have shipping centers is time consuming and an expense.

Even if the manufacturer provides free shipping label for one carrier, you still need to wait all day to see if they show up. Then wait to see if the item makes it there and back without being stolen/broken.

Have had several experiences with warranty work over the years, all being directly after purchase. Am older and have bought more than a couple firearms. Excepting recalls on the SA xds (45 and 9mm), the dealers all handled it. Including one time on a used shotgun. Maybe 4 times over 40 odd years? It is a pia to ship firearms for me with local carrier attitudes and distance from centers.

However, am grateful for all the responses. It makes me aware of what to me is a changing attitude about what to expect about dealer service. Much cheaper to just have a local guy do transfer for $25, than "support" a dealer who does not extend warranty service assistance.

Yepper, am older and old fashioned.

I'm relating real world experience, including the OP's . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

People ignore the law all the time. That doesn’t change what the law means or what it requires or what the language says.

I agree, but it’s the practice, not the academia, that moves the wheel. For instance, somebody gave advice to make a small claims case. If you can actually find out the correct entity to serve and sue (which gets expensive, trust me), the first thing any real business would do would be to move that thing to district/circuit court, and then all of a sudden you need a lawyer.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

One good reason I search for used/experienced guns; I can check out the one for sale. How many times have you looked over a new gun from the display case and agree to buy it, then the clerk slips to the back room and brings out one wrapped in a box? I consider that "bait and switch".

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Well.... the fellow (OP) said he spent $8,000 there - that seems like a valued customer in my book! The other thing is that the lines won't be there forever - NOTHING is forever! To piss off a good customer over something he could have easily done at no cost is kind of stupid to me.

Dan,

I noticed that you alluded to this in your original post. Yep, there's a law, but our only recourse when a dealer doesn't follow the law is to take our money elsewhere. Otherwise, it can turn into an uphill battle (and $$) that Muss mentioned.

Had a similar experience, LGS a couple miles from here...bought 10 or so guns from them,my family also used them...took a K22 out the door,before leaving asked,"did you look it over?"...answer was yes,its fine....after first range trip,cleaned it and saw the damage to the rifiling near the muzzle...took it back and they said we'll take it back for $150 less than you paid, on another in-stock gun!....I blamed myself and took the deal...lesson learned...have bought 10 or so guns since..NOT THERE!

Yes, I understand the theory and the practical application of these cases and defend product liability and other cases for a living. Small claims cases are not hard to prosecute if someone has high school level organization skills. Businesses’ agents for service of process are posted online. Courthouses have self-help publications. Litigation is terrible in many ways, but prosecuting a $1,500 small claims case is not beyond most people’s capacity.

I typed a big ole long response, but you have your experience and I have mine. I’ll just agree to disagree about how hard it is to successfully prosecute a small claims action. And collect . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

What state is this? Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

If a firearm comes in damaged, I return it to the distributor. If after 6 rounds the receiver cracks, I will help the customer get it returned to factory for repair or replacement. Used firearms are a different story with me. If you buy a used gun for me and there is a problem, I will refund your money or get it taken care of for you. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

I had this happen at Cabelas. In 2019 P.C.* Cabelas ran a good sale on Shields. I asked to see and inspect the gun that the clerk handed me from the display case. I found the gun to meet my expectations and told the clerk I would take it. He put the gun back in the display case, disappeared and then came out carrying a box. When I realized that it was a gun from the back room instead of the display gun I made him stop the sale and show me the gun in the box. It met my expectations and I purchased the gun.

I should give the clerk credit for selling me a new gun that had not been previously handled by other customers. On the other hand I would have been very upset if after I got home and inspected the gun it had a visible factory defect.

All business transactions are “buyer beware.”

*P.C. - Pre-Covid.

Dan you sound like you have experience as a lawyer or paralegal for with M-F Law and how it applies to a licensed FFL manufacturers and retail dealer.

Could you go into more detail about cases where M-F has been used against gun manufacturers and retailers? Is M-F a Federal Law so wouldn’t it have to be tried in Federal District Court?

I have always been curious how M-F has been applied to firearm businesses. Links to actual cases would be greatly appreciated.

That's the key right there.

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Release the Kraken

I surf the forum during my commute to work and during my lunch. I try to be helpful with observations where I have some experience, but respectfully no I’m not going to write an analysis on gun manufacturer or seller case law.

Sometimes there is a price to be paid for true rural living.

Believe it or not there is a price for living here in Vegas. It always makes me smile on this forum when I read "just go to the one in the next town" in relation to car dealers or gun stores. The "next towns" here are Boulder City, which has almost no retail and is 40 miles away, and Pahrump which is 60 miles away and rarely a good shopping alternative. After that you're into going out of state, and that rarely works, especially for firearms.

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Release the Kraken

Well Henry was quick to respond, and very friendly/respectful. The barrel was replaced, no questions asked after they looked at it. Should be able to try it out soon.

In a previous life had to deal with mistakes made during certain major projects. Always concentrated on awarding those fixing mistakes, instead of punishing them. Much better results

Maybe, just maybe, we oughta think about starting threads a couple days after we think we should . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The lgs handled it exactly as he should have. The fewer hands involved in a repair the better . To those who fault lgs I suggest just buying direct from manufacturers. Probably a ten million dollar commitment per manufacturer will do. But you’ll still have to go through a distribution between you and manufacturer. Folks this ain’t 1950 anymore.

If I'm not mistaken this is a California law, and if I'm not further mistaken, if you continue to read on after the portion you have posted, it further clarifies that the retailer only has obligations if the manufacturer either doesn't have an expressed warranty, or is failing to honor it.