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Old 02-19-2021, 01:19 PM
scoobysnacker scoobysnacker is online now
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Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal?  
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Default Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal?

I just got an email from an AR site that was pushing something I didn't think was allowed, and that I really think could get a whole lot of unsuspecting folks in trouble (potentially).

This

It's my understanding, the moment you put that buttstock on, the 'pistol' becomes a rifle- and you can't go backwards.

Now, this seems like it would be ok if you already had a lower, but I can't believe they would offer it the way they are.
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:20 PM
David.Hylton David.Hylton is offline
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Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal? Site offering "complete rifle pack"; isn't this illegal?  
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No, I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it once it is registered (the 4473) as a pistol it remains a pistol. Even if it it is converted to a rifle later. It can be converted back to a pistol at any time. If the bare receiver was sold as 'other" then it has to be built as a pistol first then it can built as a rifle and later built as a pistol..
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:53 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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Technically it's not illegal until someone mounts a buttstock on that reciever in combination with the 7.5 inch barrel. If they build a new lower for that Rifle upper and buttstock no laws are broken. However the implication of that advertised package is illegal so it's actually a pretty damned poor idea.

However that whole "a pistol lower will always be a pistol lower" is one of the stupidest rules I have ever seen. How will the ATF or any other law enforcement agency ever know if you have put that combination together as a rifle if you did it in your own home and never ever told anyone what you did. End result is a law that is only enforceable if Law enforcement personnel actually see you do this.

I'll also note that IMO the AR Pistol is just plain DUMB. As a firearm is ballistically compromised by the short barrel and rather difficult to shoot as a pistol. If have a need for close quarters SD weapon my choice would be a Mossberg Shockwave in 12 gage. Because as a competitive shotgun shooter I know full well just how devastating a 12 gage is at close range.
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:54 PM
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A pistol + a buttstock that's not attached to another lower = constructive possession of an SBR. No?
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:07 PM
.357magger .357magger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker View Post
A pistol + a buttstock that's not attached to another lower = constructive possession of an SBR. No?
And if you have multiple lowers and uppers, some pistol/braced with others using rifle stocks?

Just to be a fly in the ointment.
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:21 PM
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It's very nebulous as far as I can tell. However, that first kit includes a "stock", not a "brace". You can see the difference. The brace is a current ATF controversy at the moment. The stock is not - - I think adding a real stock to an AR pistol, as opposed to a brace, makes it an SBR from the outset, and you really cannot go back except for the obvious argument that if you take it apart nobody saw it so where's the law violation?

As far as I am aware, once you step over that line your only safe harbor is nobody saw it and you can make it disappear but the violation remains. It's like speeding. The fact that you drove 90 mph in a 45 mph zone and didn't get pulled over doesn't mean you didn't do it. Getting prosecuted for it is just not possible but the law was broken.

Another problem is that in the unlikely event you did have an ATF raid on your home the existence of a stock NOT attached to your pistol and not attached to a rifle is definitely going to raise ATF eyebrows. What they would do about it is hard to say and 99.99% of gun owners will never have to deal with an ATF raid, anyway. The real issue is if the ATF decides this company sold SBRs to folks without tax stamps they COULD follow the chain to the purchasers = they're in that .01%.

That's the view from my saddle, anyway.
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:28 PM
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It ships in pistol configuration, along with the components to convert it to a rifle. No different from the fact that I always build my lowers as pistols first (and document them in that configuration), even if they are going to eventually end up as a rifle.

The law is strange, but while a rifle can never become a pistol (it can become an SBR), a pistol can convert to a rifle (or SBR), and back again as many times as you want.
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:53 PM
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If it were me and I wanted that kit, I would buy an extra receiver just to be sure.
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Old 02-19-2021, 04:48 PM
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I have heard arguments on both sides for years. The one question I have yet to see answered is explain T/C to me. There are no markings on the frame to indicate if it was sent as frame only, frame with pistol grips, frame with rifle stock, complete rifle or complete pistol. If you buy one used, there is no way to find out what it was originally. T/C went to court several years ago, against the ATF for this very situation. T/C is still selling all the stocks, grips, barrels, frames and guns. IMO that says a lot.
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Old 02-19-2021, 06:28 PM
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Assembling certain components together that then result in an NFA weapon (unregistered) is one of the issues.
Don't put the 14" bbl you have salvaged from a scrap pile on to your 870 and you haven't made an NFA weapon.

But does the mere presence of that 14" 870 bbl by itself unattached to anything,,and an 870 shotgun w/ it's 30" bbl in the same room make the resident guilty of possession of a NFA weapon?
(14" bbl'd shotgun).

Before the shoulder stocked Artillery Luger and Mauser C96 were pushed over to the TitleI c&r classification, it was still legal to own the LP08 Luger and the stock,,But the stock could never be seen attached to the pistol. If so it was instantly an NFA weapon.
The ATF removed the restriction and allowed repro stocks as well for some yrs.
They again changed their minds a couple yrs back and now the regs read 'original mfg shoulder stock'. That goes for the Mauser, H/P and all those pistols that were shoved to Title I C&R status.

They still can't decide on the 'wrist brace' things.
Just make a clear defined ruling and be done with it already.

Rules and regs change and they change with little notice. The BATF makes the call on that.

Trying to figure it out w/common sense will likely cost you. Courts and lawyers are 'spensive.
Err on the side that'll keep you as far away from that as possible
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