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  #1  
Old 03-06-2009, 07:21 PM
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Greetings, all:

A buddy of mine is interested in a defensive shotgun, ideally a short-barreled 12 gauge pump. I told him about the 870, Ithaca 37 (my preference), Winchester Model 12, Mossbergs, and the higher end stuff such as the Benellis. He seems interested in an 870.

Are there any particular bugaboos or trouble spots in these guns, particularly those of recent manufacture? And what's the good version to get?

Thanks, and Semper Fi.

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Old 03-06-2009, 07:21 PM
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Greetings, all:

A buddy of mine is interested in a defensive shotgun, ideally a short-barreled 12 gauge pump. I told him about the 870, Ithaca 37 (my preference), Winchester Model 12, Mossbergs, and the higher end stuff such as the Benellis. He seems interested in an 870.

Are there any particular bugaboos or trouble spots in these guns, particularly those of recent manufacture? And what's the good version to get?

Thanks, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:27 PM
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None.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by conn ak:
None.
870 is old reliable, like the Mossberg 500.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:30 PM
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We just switched from 37s to 870s in the LASD...mainly because parts are becoming non-existent for 37s...our 870s have the shock absorbing stock and surefire forearm...but my preference is still the simple 4 shot 37 as it is so light, but the 870 is a great gun and probably in more police cars than any other shotgun...either way, you can't go wrong...I also own a Mossberg 590 and it's every bit as reliable and well built as the 870...
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:38 PM
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I've had no problems with mine. I did add a three shot extention and a 20" slug barrel for home use, but I can put it back like new in about five minutes. If you're picky and buying used, make sure it can be used with 3" shells. Mine can't, but that's OK. I just buy 2 3/4" for everything so that there's no confusion.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by conn ak:
None.
+1

Quote:
what's the good version to get?
For defense? I'd find a used one for a good price, 12ga, then either cut down the barrel that's on it to 18.5-19", or find a good price on a police-model cylinder-bore 18" barrel.

Alternatively, if recoil is an issue, a youth model 20ga with a cylinder choke is a good bet.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:50 PM
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Being of modest stature and wearing a 32" sleeve, I find pump guns to be annnoying in their requirement of a long stretch to the forend. I've gone to an auto, and am much happier. This may be a consideration...
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:51 PM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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Quote:
Are there any particular bugaboos or trouble spots in these guns, particularly those of recent manufacture?
Yes, people will want to borrow it.

Quote:
And what's the good version to get?
Marine Magnum version
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2009, 08:02 PM
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I would recommend to your friend a Rem 870 Express 20 gauge, youth model. I have one and this gun makes an excellent home defense gun, and with a barrel switch, a fine game gun. I put a thick decel pad on it and this gun has been loaned to 1/2 the kids in town, and keeps on tickin. My hometown Bi-Mart sells 870"s every day of the week for $330. Now they come with a laminated stock and chokes. It is quite handsome. The 870 is brutely tough, parts are easy to get, and is fun to shoot. OK, I'm done. beaver.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:15 PM
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Try to find one without an internal lock on it.

The ones marked "Police" used to be pretty good ones, and would come with extended mags from the factory. On some the other models, you'd have to tinker with them to fit an extended mag tube. This seems to have changed in recent years since there is an "Express" model with the extended mag as well as the newish Tactical line from Remington.

If shopping for used guns, check the markings. Some will have only a 2 3/4" chamber. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, just something to watch for.

It might be a good idea to get one with either rifle sights or a ghost ring rear sight rather than just a bead.

Of course if money is tight, there's always the Walmart special to be had.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:18 PM
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My wife gave me an 870 Deer Gun in 12 ga. for our first Christmas as husband and wife in 1979. I was a new rookie on a city PD. We had to supply our own shotguns. It served me well during my LE career and also took a few deer. I still have it and it has never failed me.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:19 PM
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When I started in 1970 my department was using 870s at the range for training that were pretty old, They probably had 300 to 800 rounds go through them every day (5 buck, 5 slug per man 30 to 50 men per day and sometimes another 30 to 50 men to shoot at night) except for a few holidays when there was no training scheduled. They were still working fine when I retired in 1990 and I bet they are still being used today. I doubt they were ever cleaned, if they were it probably wasn’t more than once a year. That is why I bought an 870
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:21 PM
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What Gator said,
The only thing I didn't like about the 870 I bought, to replace a stolen Winchester 1300 (no longer made except via FN) was the idiot keyed safety button on the Express model. They have since dropped that feature.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:52 PM
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One of the best,if not THE best, pumps ever made. You can never go wrong buying an 870.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sipowicz:
We just switched from 37s to 870s in the LASD...mainly because parts are becoming non-existent for 37s...our 870s have the shock absorbing stock and surefire forearm...but my preference is still the simple 4 shot 37 as it is so light, but the 870 is a great gun and probably in more police cars than any other shotgun...either way, you can't go wrong...I also own a Mossberg 590 and it's every bit as reliable and well built as the 870...
Sip, Ithica is back in production. You should be able to get parts again.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:58 PM
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There is no finer, more reliable, or practical weapon made. PERIOD!

Be safe.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:01 PM
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You can't go wrong with an 870. There is a model called the "HD" for home defense comes with a 18 inch bead sight barrel, synthetic stocks, and a factory installed magazine extension. I have seen them at a lot of big chain sporting goods stores and gunshows for about $400. You can always add goodies to an 870 later down the road if you want to.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:02 PM
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For the 870 I prefer an older model with the metal trigger group, the heavy follower, smooth bore with rifle sights. The older 870s can be found for about 200 bones and with another 100 dollars worth of parts be every bit as tacticool as one of it's newer siblings.

Better yet get an 870 Wingmaster.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:00 PM
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I bought an ex-cop 870 years ago, I think called Wingmaster. I used it for a beater gun on the ranch, it has taken badgers, and other various varmin. It is 2 3/4", but really no need for more than that. I recently put a new synthetic stock on it, the old original got pretty beat up, and it is the HD weapon of choice.
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  #21  
Old 03-07-2009, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pps:
Quote:
Originally posted by sipowicz:
We just switched from 37s to 870s in the LASD...mainly because parts are becoming non-existent for 37s...our 870s have the shock absorbing stock and surefire forearm...but my preference is still the simple 4 shot 37 as it is so light, but the 870 is a great gun and probably in more police cars than any other shotgun...either way, you can't go wrong...I also own a Mossberg 590 and it's every bit as reliable and well built as the 870...
Sip, Ithica is back in production. You should be able to get parts again.
It may say "Ithaca" on the side, but they sure aren't Ithaca guns. Now made in Sandusky, OH, if I remember right. Demolition started on the old factory last week. Sad.
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Old 03-07-2009, 06:05 AM
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An 870 is bomb proof. They will go bang every time you pull the trigger.
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:02 AM
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I'd suggest a Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun (3" chamber) and take it and cut the barrel down to 18.5".

There is one little problem with finding a Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun, and then they guys on here that might scream when you cut it down.

Of course, if you find one like I did in said condition already...you're good.

There is nothing wrong with the Italian guns either except they are overpriced by 50%!
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:16 AM
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Nowadays I believe the 870 "Police Magnum" has the metal trigger group where the others like the "Express" and "Home Defense" versions have plastic. I believe the Police Magnum version is supposed to be put together with closer attention to specs. I'm looking for a used Police Magnum, 18", with walnut stocks. Haven't seen any in a while. Came across 6 police turn-ins all with broken ejector springs for less than
$200.00 per, but they were all Express versions.
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:50 AM
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Rem 870 -- Absolutely reliable, easy to take down, easy to replace parts if necessary, lots of aftermarket goodies available.

If you find an older used one and want to shoot 3" magnums in it, make sure it indicates "Magnum" on the receiver and your barrel is chambered for 3" shells. The issue is not strength, but rather the function of the ejector assembly. The older ones came in 2 versions; you were limited to 2 3/4" shell on the non-Mag ones even though you could shoot 2 3/4" magnum shells. More recent or current production ones are no problem.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:03 PM
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I like an 870. I have seen them that have had 1000s of rounds through them without breaking. They are priced right also. I have had a short barreled 870 in 12ga beside my bed for years.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:33 PM
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I second the Remington 870 in 20 gauge for home protection.
Less blast, less recoil, still absolutely devastating at living room distances and unfailingly reliable.
I keep my 870 Youth Model 20 gauge by my bed, loaded with four rounds of No. 3 buckshot. On the stock is attached a stretchy-fabric shell carrier with an extra five rounds of buckshot.
Don't discount the 20-gauge, No. 3 buckshot load.
No. 3 buckshot is .25-caliber in diameter (in fact, it makes a very cheap substitute for reloading .25 Auto practice rounds. But that's anothe story).

The 3" case holds 24 pellets at 1,150 fps muzzle velocity, the 2-3/4" case holds 20 pellets at 1,200 fps.
These are not loads to be sneezed at.
The slug load is 3/4 ounce (328 grs.) at about 1,600 fps. This puts the 20 gauge in the realm of standard factory .45-70 loads -- hardly a Nerf load!

Have you checked the Remington website? I recently noted a 20 gauge 870 with extended magazine holding 7 rounds (if I recall correctly), black plastic stock and 20 inch barrel.
This would be the perfect home protection shotgun, in my estimation.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 12 gauge. But it seems overkill for the short ranges involved, and the extra recoil and blast can be a hindrance, in both actual use and especially in training.

I originally bought my 870 20 gauge Youth Model 15 years ago to hunt grouse in the thick woods of northern Idaho. I've put perhaps 1,000 rounds through it and never had a failure to feed or function.
I originally purchased a Winchester 20 gauge but didn't like it. Too heavy. It seems that Winchester builds their 20 gauge on the 12 gauge frame. Remington scales their 12 gauge down to fit the 20 gauge cartridge, making it much smaller and lighter.

My 870 Youth Model is about as long as an M1 carbine or Ruger Mini-14 and weighs just a tad more. I put a nylon sling on it, so I could have both hands free for climbing up steep banks or over obstacles. A quick-detatchable sling is a good addition, but may be a hindrance for a house gun.
No problem. Just add the sling for hunting and remove it for home defense.

The 870 is a magnificent shotgun. You have to decide the gauge you want, but I'm offering the above opinion so you don't readily discount the 20 gauge.
Either gauge will work, for my own uses I prefer the 20 gauge.
For greater versatility in ammo, choose the 12 gauge. You can get all kinds of esoteric (and often downright silly) loads for the 12 gauge that are not made for the 20 gauge, including incendiary and whistling rounds.
Whether you'll need these is up to you. But be warned that such rounds are pricey, often bringing $20 to $30 at gun shows for a packet of 5! Ouch!

The cost of either 12 or 20 gauge cartridges, with standard field loads, is about the same. Sometimes you'll find 20 gauge slightly cheaper because they may not sell as briskly as the seller wants, so he reduces them to make shelf space.
I've picked up more than few boxes of 2-3/4 inch No. 6 shot field loads at reduced prices for this reason.
For rabbits, grouse and pheasant, No. 6 shot is great. As a home defense round it can be devastating too.

Take a look at the Remington website. See what's offered. One thing: you can't go wrong with an 870!
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:38 PM
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870 is a great gun. A magnum receiver will have a M in the serial number. Only draw back is someone that is not trained to remember to rack the slide each time to shoot it. I've seen a bunch, and I mean a bunch, of folks shoot a pump then forget to cycle the slide. Too important in a defense gun to just say oops and laugh it off. Make sure your friend practices with it regularly. Also make him understand that a shotgun is not a point and shoot device. You still have to aim the thing.
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:12 PM
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I'm an 870 fan as well, but I really like the Mossbergs too. You can't go wrong either way. For personal defense I'd say stay away from the pistol grip/no stock models because they're harder to control. Anything with a stock or stock w/pistol grip is easier to control and be ready for a followup shot if needed.

I've seen people at the range completely miss the target sometimes. It's not the movies. The shot isn't going to open up into a funnel cloud of death at those distances. It's still about placement. That having been said, any reasonable placement with a shotgun and you're talking fatality, not just stopping the BG.

I'd also give a +1 to the youth model suggestion because of the added maneuverability. If not, definitely go for the shorter barrel length. Especially if there is no chance they're gonna use it for any sporting purposes at all. At some point it comes down to an aesthetic thing though, doesn't it? The Marine Magnum is very beautiful and you can just about keep it in the shower just in case a Psycho situation at your house and it's not gonna rust. After that you're talking mostly tacticool vs. practical. The Express model will go bang just like everything else for less money. The autos have more to go wrong with them, but on the whole they're very reliable as well. 1100 or 11-87. I know they make a tactical 1100 auto. As far as the Mossbergs, the 500 or the 590 are great guns. People will argue for days about the pros and cons about both, but in a real situation I'd take either, though I did choose the 870.

I load mine up with bird shot. I've got a bunch of 00 Buck, but that's kind of extreme and you may have some over penetration issues with whatever doesn't land. The bird shot at personal defense ranges will still be devastating.

I've gotta say though, if I hear a bump in the night, I go for my revolver. I just feel more comfortable going around corners with it and no qualms about its stopping power. Still got the 870 there to fall back to if need be.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:19 PM
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+1 to the 870. I would never cut a barrel, as so many varities are available. I think Remington tired of people modifying their older ones, so began making the Express with "dimples" in the magazine tube to make it difficult to add an extension, then they offered their own extension-equipped model. Do not fret - you can hardly enter a gun or pawn shop w/o finding a variety of 870 available. I prefer the all metal, walnut stocked 870 Wingmaster of old (it will never be worn out, just more broken in). Replace barrel with one of 18 or 20", add barrel band and 2 or 3 shot extension and you're done. A butt cuff is a nice extra shell holder (I do not recommend a side-saddle as some brands and types break easily, disabling the gun), a simple bead sight is certainly fine for the range of usage (options include express sights, tritium night sights, ghost ring, etc). I added an oversize button on the safety on mine, as well as a metal, brightly colored follower to be instantly aware of rounds left in magazine. The original stock is fine (was made to point naturally, after all) - many folders are downright painful, and pistol grip only stocks spoil the pointability and make shooting a wrist-busting affair. 2 3/4" # 4 buck and you're ready to go...after much practicing, of course!
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:26 PM
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The 870 Remington is never a bad choice. For the task you mentioned, nothing beats an 870.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:34 PM
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So who am I to buck a trend? Looks like an 870 love affair.

I picked up the factory black version from Big 5 Sporting goods for right around $300. All the pictures of the gun show it with swivels for a sling, but this el cheapo didn't actually come with them, so I call customer service at Remingon. The nice lady sent me a set, gratis.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:42 PM
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The best pump shotgun ever made . PERIOD!!!!!!! Mark
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Old 03-07-2009, 05:59 PM
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FWIW - Southern Ohio Gun (a wholeseller)currently has police trade in 870's starting at $179, with rifle sights $199. I have three 870's already, but I'm thinking I may need another one or two.
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:15 PM
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I love my 870, much more than my Mossberg Maverick, which as a pistol grip is a real pain to shoot.
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by will5a1:
FWIW - Southern Ohio Gun (a wholeseller)currently has police trade in 870's starting at $179, with rifle sights $199. I have three 870's already, but I'm thinking I may need another one or two.
Heck yeah ... at that price, buy as many as you can pack out the door. If you can't / don't want to keep 'em, you wouldn't have any trouble reselling them at a profit.
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:08 PM
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I have had an 870 wingmaster since I was 12, and two more an HD and an old patrol shotgun all work wonderful. I prefer them over anything else.
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:42 PM
AKAOV1MAN AKAOV1MAN is offline
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In 1964 I was an Army Aviator in VN. I had a Thompson SMG I used to carry in case of being forced down somewhere unplesant, however the SMG and a couple of drums was HEAVY. I eventually caged an Ithaca shotgun from a SF unit. It was a commercial grade Deerslayer complete with an engraving on the receiver and the 4 round mag, someone had done a field modification shortening the barrel to about 15". I seriously beat that gun up over a few years, and it never malfunctioned. Eventually it was turned in as I could not figure out how to smuggle it home. Since that time I have used the 870 and it is indeed THE tactical shotgun. Still have a place in my heart for the Ithaca however and a few years ago added two to my military/tactical SG collection. Forgot how nicely they slam fired(just like the M97 and M12 Winchester). Of course slam firing is a double edged sword.
Most every LE agency uses the 870, the Wingmaster/Police model. If you need a SG for HD or civiliam defense the Express series is great, if your are a serious pro and want a SG get the Police/Wingmaster series. Either way you will have a superior product.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:01 PM
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...I've got an 870...a Mossberg 500...and a Winchester Defender...all great guns. I'd like to have a Ithaca 37...they're so unique with the bottom ejection. My real passion right now though...is for a TTN coach gun...

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Old 03-08-2009, 11:24 PM
Spotteddog Spotteddog is offline
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AKAO,
Had a semi-serious love affair with a brig chaser myself!
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carbine, cartridge, commercial, ejector, ithaca, lock, military, model 15, remington, ruger, surefire, tactical, tacticool, thompson, tritium, walnut, winchester, wingmaster

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