Buy or pass? (Not) Colt Gold Cup Nat'l Match Mk IV Series 70

[olivehead1]

Colt aficionados and others:

Would you pick this gun up, assuming overall condition matches pictured left side, for $1,200 OTD?

Thanks for any info.

[wetdog1911]

If I had the funds, I wouldnt hesitate, but then, I'm a sucker for 1911s, especially older Colts.

They aren't gonna get any cheaper.

Rob

[Drm50]

I’m not a Colt expert but I have my doubts that this gun is original s-70s MK-IV. If it is I would buy. A standard s70 MK-4 is bringing $1k. It’s hard to find any for less. Lots of mix and match going on with 1911s of all models.

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by Drm50

I’m not a Colt expert but I have my doubts that this gun is original s-70s MK-IV. If it is I would buy. A standard s70 MK-4 is bringing $1k. It’s hard to find any for less. Lots of mix and match going on with 1911s of all models.

I'm advised that the trigger is not stock, which I figured, and also the front sight. Maybe a Millet? That doesn't really bother me but the price is well out of my typical $400 OTD comfort zone these days.

[s&wchad]

I don't think that gun started out as a Gold Cup National Match. It says Government Model on the slide, which is the civilian version of the military pistol.

I'm also pretty sure Colt used woodgrain pasteboard boxes in the 70's, not plastic. I'm not up on recent Colt's, so I guess it could be a newer release.

Did you happen to get the serial number?

[Jack Flash]

If you check it over really well, the slide matches the frame, etc., and the shop guarantees that it functions fine, buy it.

A lot of these have been modified to suit a previous owner's tastes, so if you want an all original, better know what to look for.

[505Gibbs]

Originally Posted by s&wchad

I don't think that gun started out as a Gold Cup National Match. It says Government Model on the slide, which is the civilian version of the military pistol.

I'm also pretty sure Colt used woodgrain pasteboard boxes in the 70's, not plastic. I'm not up on recent Colt's, so I guess it could be a newer release.

Did you happen to get the serial number?

I'd certainly agree with Chad's comments. Sounds like it's altered.

[ken158]

Wrong box, trigger and front sight. Check the bushing to see if it is original to a 70 series. Offer 1K and hold - see what happens.

[olivehead1]

Ok guys. Sorry to waste your time. That's not a Gold Cup although it's billed as such on the shop's website. It's apparently a Government Model, Mk IV Series 70. I should have noticed the lack of the flat top strap ridge, etc. I called the shop and guy confirmed it doesn't say "Gold Cup" on right side of slide and so on. Colt's website dates it to 1981. Pretty sure this is a pass.

[OldK22]

Not a National Match. Built up target gun.. not worth $1200 to me but these are crazy times and prices are silly.. used Colt Gold Cup National Match pistols in good shape are worth $1200..

[arjay]

It might be worth that as a shooter depending if everything was fit up properly along with a good trigger. As it is,I’d offer $800 or so for it.

[03hemi]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

Colt aficionados and others:

Would you pick this gun up, assuming overall condition matches pictured left side, for $1,200 OTD?

Thanks for any info.

Yes absolutely, jump on it now!

[ContinentalOp]

Govt Model with aftermarket front and rear sights, trigger, hammer, grip safety, and mainspring housing, based on the photo. The grips look right for an original Series 70.

I have two custom 1911s, but I'd be leery about buying a modified pistol unless I know who did the work and that it was someone with a solid reputation. I would probably pass on it. But if you like it and the gun checks out mechanically, I'd suggest trying to negotiate a lower price. I think arjay's advice is pretty good.

Just my opinion.

[GaryHK]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

Ok guys. Sorry to waste your time. That's not a Gold Cup although it's billed as such on the shop's website. It's apparently a Government Model, Mk IV Series 70. I should have noticed the lack of the flat top strap ridge, etc. I called the shop and guy confirmed it doesn't say "Gold Cup" on right side of slide and so on. Colt's website dates it to 1981. Pretty sure this is a pass.

Since you've already called out the shop on it, good opportunity to lowball on it since it was misadvertised. That is, if you still want it at a much lower price and it checks out, as others have stated.

With Colt most likely getting bought out, it may be a good time for a '81 gun.

[Iframe32s]

No being an "expert" Colt aficionado I studied the photo before reading any of the comments here. And, as so many have pointed out the sights, trigger & hammer are things that made me say "hmmm."

I'd pass, but that's just one man's opinion.

[H Richard]

I agree, that is not a Gold Cup. Frame appears to be the standard 1911 A1 frame, not a Gold Cup frame, standard narrow trigger.

[ameridaddy]

What arjay & Continentalop said.
I have a 1975 Gold Cup, and the slide says "Gold Cup National Match".
That pistol is a frankengun, a 1911 Govt Model accessorized with trigger and sights. If the slide has been fitted like a Gold Cup, with a Gold Cup recoil spring & properly fitted barrel bushing, you might get GC accuracy with target loads, but it's still not a Gold Cup, and IMHO, not worth a Gold Cup price.

[Grayfox]

I don't know how things are where you live, but around here a decent 70 Series Colt in good condition will easily bring 1K. Somebody apparently spent a good bit of time and money on that one. I'd be willing to take a chance.

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by GaryHK

Since you've already called out the shop on it, good opportunity to lowball on it since it was misadvertised. That is, if you still want it at a much lower price and it checks out, as others have stated.

Normally I'd agree with you, but these days this shop like many others has become a "no deal" shop. With the info I have now, I might be tempted at $800, maybe. But these guys are all seeing $$$ so wouldn't be worth the effort.

Another pawn shop has a NIB Glock 21 out for $879. Maybe if it were silver plated. Problem right now is there's always that one dumb*ss willing to pay that if it sits a couple weeks, which just fuels the fire.

[ggibson511960]

1911's are among the most modified firearms out there. Finding a Series 70 Gold Cup dead stock would not be impossible, but expensive. Series 70 guns are desirable for the better disconnector mechanism and collet barrel bushing, but there is a dirty little secret about Gold Cups. They have a sear anti-bounce mechanism in the trigger that is the devil's own work. The Eliason branded adjustable rear sight on Gold Cups is inferior to the Bomar on the gun in question. The only knock I can see on the gun you are looking at is the standard narrow trigger with no backlash adjustment. A fat, adjustable Gold Cup trigger is a joy to shoot. I agree with trying to negotiate a lower price since it is not a Gold Cup, but if you like the piece buy it and be happy. It's relatively easy to trick up like you want it.

[arjay]

I think it’s tempting-glad I live far away

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by ggibson511960

They have a sear anti-bounce mechanism in the trigger that is the devil's own work.

Yup. I found out the hard way back in the 90s when I detail-stripped my Series 70 Gold Cup and had to have my gunsmith reassemble it.

[arjay]

Originally Posted by ContinentalOp

Yup. I found out the hard way back in the 90s when I detail-stripped my Series 70 Gold Cup and had to have my gunsmith reassemble it.

I picked up a really nice one years ago with the original sear and bits in a baggie and a standard sear in the gun. Tried to reassemble it with the right parts a year ago and sent that tiny spring flying three times until it was gone
Just got 3 new ones from Wolff,but I haven’t psyched myself up yet

[Robspeire]

I have had Colt 1911's & Kimber's.
I currently have a Springfield 1911 Loaded in stainless. I like it the best.

[GaryHK]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

Normally I'd agree with you, but these days this shop like many others has become a "no deal" shop. With the info I have now, I might be tempted at $800, maybe. But these guys are all seeing $$$ so wouldn't be worth the effort.
.

I would think that "no deal" would only apply to properly advertised items, which, in this case, it is not. You could strongly persuade them that it not being a GOLD CUP they aren't going to get GC money. Everything is negotiable or maybe that's just the wheeler dealer...aka cheap...in me.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

Colt aficionados and others:

Would you pick this gun up, assuming overall condition matches pictured left side, for $1,200 OTD?

Thanks for any info.

Not an Gold Cup original or the later copy. My original Series 70 has on the right side of the slide the following:
COLT'S MARK IV/SERIES '70
GOLD CUP NATIONAL MATCH
.45 AUTOMATIC CALIBER

On the left side of the slide is:
GOLD CUP
NATIONAL MATCH

The one you are looking at may shoot as well as a Series '70 Gold Cup, but it is not one.

[Drm50]

Chad is right on 100%. Trigger, hammer, case, sights, lettering, ect parts gun. Recently I have been insulted by many on trades involving 1911s.
Bogus Gold Cups being number #1. The owners always leave back door to crawl away when they realize they didn’t pull it off. They claim ignorance.
I’ve got a few years of gun trading behind me and the rule of thumb on custom or customized guns is they are worth less than original. There are always exceptions.

[GaryHK]

Originally Posted by Drm50

I’ve got a few years of gun trading behind me and the rule of thumb on custom or customized guns is they are worth less than original. There are always exceptions.

Also, custom or customized = Higher value for the original customizer, no one else.

If you ever want to kill your gun ad, just put "custom" in the title. Use the word "upgrade" instead of "custom".

[4barrel]

I like it. If it's tight it's got to be worth $1000. Someone milled and put a very nice rear sight on. You need to know what you are looking at hands on with something like this. I had rather have $800 in it. Make sure it has a Colt frame.

[Dump1567]

Probably a great shooter. I'm not afraid of someone else's work as long as you do a thorough inspection. Most of my recent 1911 purchases have had work done to them. But I've been paying in the $600-$800 range.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by Dump1567

Probably a great shooter. I'm not afraid of someone else's work as long as you do a thorough inspection. Most of my recent 1911 purchases have had work done to them. But I've been paying in the $600-$800 range.

If there is a return policy where you can shoot it and return it if it does not meet your expectations, then talk them down a bit and do the deal. It is not worth as much as a real Gold Cup, I have seen some great shooting pistols that have been put together from parts. Keep in mind priices these days are higher all across the board.

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by 4barrel

I had rather have $800 in it. Make sure it has a Colt frame.

I imagine it’s a Colt frame since the guy gave me the serial over the phone and it checks out on the website.

If it were about $800 I’d probably have it already.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

I imagine it’s a Colt frame since the guy gave me the serial over the phone and it checks out on the website.

If it were about $800 I’d probably have it already.

I would agree that $800 is probably tops most of the time. However, nowadays is not most of the time. The end result is you must be happy with the deal. Remember the old saying about guns.......You never pay to much for a gun, you just bought it to soon.

[arjay]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

I imagine it’s a Colt frame since the guy gave me the serial over the phone and it checks out on the website.

If it were about $800 I’d probably have it already.

I would guess that it’s all government model with adjustable sights added and that’s probably all that was done to it.If everything internally is still factory and the trigger is decent,it’ll shoot like a gold cup of that era.My 70 gc is surprisingly accurate and I shoot it better than my gm of that era,but it’s the sights that make the difference.
If it’s all been fitted properly,it could be a sleeper!
But maybe not
Take it apart or have them do it and see what’s really there.

[Golddollar]

Originally Posted by Drm50

Lots of mix and match going on with 1911s of all models.

I came across one like that but I think I came out OK. I went to the shop near the indoor range I shoot at and saw a nice looking Colt with a Gold Cup slide and a Bar-Sto barrel. The price was pretty good and the salesman said the gun came from a guy who they had dealt with before who brought in guns when he needed some cash. It looked like a decent deal and not wanting to walk away and risk losing the gun I decided to buy it. When the salesman brought out the box the box said "Government Model" instead of "Gold Cup." But all in all I decided it was a decent deal, particularly with the Bar-Sto barrel, so I went ahead with the purchase.

When I got home, I pulled out my Colt book to check the serial number and it confirmed that the frame at least came from a Government Model. When I took the gun to the range it was making bullet holes touch each other at 7 yards. So all in all, with the Gold Cup slide and Bar-Sto barrel on the Government Model frame at the price of a stock Government Model I figured I lucked out pretty well.

[olivehead1]

FWIW I'm giving this gun a little more thought and will probably go take a look at it today. If it were an unaltered S70 Gov't Model, the price might not be that unreasonable if Gunbroker is any guide (seem to go for anywhere between $900 and $1,200+ for a non-collector's piece), but still well out of my comfort zone. Maybe I can find something to trade on it.

I sort of like the gun as set up, although I'm ambivalent about the Commander-style tang, but this along with Commander hammer was probably considered a good option at the time (early 1980s) when you wanted to put a BoMar sight on there. The trigger is a bit long for my tastes but acceptable.

[Dump1567]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

FWIW I'm giving this gun a little more thought and will probably go take a look at it today. If it were an unaltered S70 Gov't Model, the price might not be that unreasonable if Gunbroker is any guide (seem to go for anywhere between $900 and $1,200+ for a non-collector's piece), but still well out of my comfort zone. Maybe I can find something to trade on it.

I sort of like the gun as set up, although I'm ambivalent about the Commander-style tang, but this along with Commander hammer was probably considered a good option at the time (early 1980s) when you wanted to put a BoMar sight on there. The trigger is a bit long for my tastes but acceptable.

Go check it out in person (if it's even still there)?

Based on the pics, it's had some work. And if it's professional work (which it most likely is based on the sights), I don't think the price is unreasonable. What's a new Gold Cup going for today (if you could find one)?

But it really depends on the in person examination.

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by Dump1567

Go check it out in person (if it's even still there)?

I just sent the shop an email pointing out (again) the discrepancy between the listing and the actual gun, and how it looks like GC pricing not Gov't Mod pricing, not original box, and if there's room on the price. We'll see what they say. I'd guess they'll say, no, that's the Gov't Model price and a damned good one at that, and the mods add to the price. Typical pawn shop (and LGS) bull, but worth asking.

EDIT: Reply from shop: "We double checked on the firearm and it in fact a Govt MIV Series 70, when listing it online, our system accidentally put the wrong model. At our store, the physical tag description reads correctly. Because of the scarcity of firearms and the excellent condition it is, it is appropriately priced. We appreciate your business! And we thank you for your continued interest with doing business with us. Unfortunately at the time, being that it has not been out for sale long and because of the scarcity of firearms, we are firm on the price."

I duly thanked them for their time, etc, etc.

[GaryHK]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

I just sent the shop an email pointing out (again) the discrepancy between the listing and the actual gun, and how it looks like GC pricing not Gov't Mod pricing, not original box, and if there's room on the price. We'll see what they say. I'd guess they'll say, no, that's the Gov't Model price and a damned good one at that, and the mods add to the price. Typical pawn shop (and LGS) *********, but worth asking.

EDIT: Reply from shop: "We double checked on the firearm and it in fact a Govt MIV Series 70, when listing it online, our system accidentally put the wrong model. At our store, the physical tag description reads correctly. Because of the scarcity of firearms and the excellent condition it is, it is appropriately priced. We appreciate your business! And we thank you for your continued interest with doing business with us. Unfortunately at the time, being that it has not been out for sale long and because of the scarcity of firearms, we are firm on the price."

I duly thanked them for their time, etc, etc.

In other words. We'll wait for someone to come along that doesn't do his/her research before buying.

What a bunch of jerks.

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by GaryHK

In other words. We'll wait for someone to come along that doesn't do his/her research before buying.

What a bunch of jerks.

Yeah. Unfortunately, by and large, it's the nature of the beast these days.

[GaryHK]

Did they at least update the ad that you can see?

[olivehead1]

Originally Posted by GaryHK

Did they at least update the ad that you can see?

Actually, they did.

To be fair, I was a bit too quick to agree that they're a bunch of jerks. I've dealt with them for several years and they're a good bunch of guys. I think, having talked to the owner a couple months back, that he (the owner), like many others in the business, has $$$ in his eyes, and so his staff has to play the hard role even on guns that no one is rushing out the buy, including 1980s Colt 1911s and single action revolvers. They just adopt a blanket "no deals" policy even though that should probably mostly apply to plastic 9mm pistols and some compact revolvers (and ARs/AKs of course).

[GaryHK]

Originally Posted by olivehead1

Actually, they did.

To be fair, I was a bit too quick to agree that they're a bunch of jerks. I've dealt with them for several years and they're a good bunch of guys. I think, having talked to the owner a couple months back, that he (the owner), like many others in the business, have $$$ in their eyes, and play the hard role even on guns that no one is rushing out the buy, including Colt 1911s and single action revolvers. They just adopt a blanket "no deals" policy.

Sorry but if my GC suddenly became MKIV 70, I'd lower the asking price...the fact that they don't budge on price, makes their asking price that much more toxic.

[bigl1911]

Big L here 1911 has to throw a bullet in.
Great thread. I am a big believer when it comes to desire. If you like the gun, it is in good working order and it is priced right for you buy it. I not overly happy to read the seller misrepresented the gun, albeit probably ignorance being the reason.
On another subject tactical guns are going for high numbers today both new and used unless you have an "in" with a larger LGS. On the other hand, a friend of mine while we were at the range last week found a Browning Superposed that had been sitting for a year. My friend bought it at under 1K. Really good buy IMO.
Back to the 1911 -I am one of the first who will say step back from a modified gun. On the other had I have several. This is an example of a NM Marksmanship SA modified 1911. You can find one in your price point in lesser condition. Better use of your money..

[gregintenn]

I would be a hard “pass” on this particular pistol. I don’t doubt somebody will buy it, however.

[Benton Quest]

I think everyone is getting hung up on the whole Gold Cup thing. It is hard to say from looking at the photo, but the gun has had some decent work done...as evidenced by the melding of what is most likely a Bomar sight. That would kind of rule out Jo Jo the Gun Plumber as the builder.

If that thing runs, it will probably out perform a Gold Cup...that came with their share of problems as well.

That gun is fairly priced. Not a steal, but fair. Any Series 70 at this point should draw a decent look (provided it is a Colt frame).

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Jack Flash]

Around here, Colts bring a premium. I suppose I need to go on GunBroker to find the $600 to $800 Colts referenced here. Or are they simply 1911s, but not Colts? Whether it's justified or not, Colts bring more money. That's just the way it is.

Make sure the frame and slide match. You probably don't want to pay that much for a Colt slide on a Norinco frame. Also make sure it passes all the usual tests for function, lack of abuse or heavy wear, etc.

If you are still ambivalent about buying it after thinking it over for this long, you should probably pass. Unless there are some real red flags, someone will buy it.

[Drm50]

I could be wrong but rear sight looks like standard dove tail for 1911 and front sight is just a stake on job. If this gun is from a shop there is no excuse for misrepresentation. There are going to be a lot of people with a “custom” 1911 that don’t know what they have. If it’s in good repair it’s a shooter and should be in $800 area. Certainly worth less than original S-70 MK-4 in like condition. That is dollar value. Somebody could like it $2000 worth, there’s always one.

[GaryHK]

Regardless of the value, there is something inherently wrong with pricing something at what you believe is a premium, in this case a Gold Cup, then realizing it isn't and NOT dropping your price.

Especially when you are firm on price like this LGS/Pawn. This being a pawnshop I would put money on the fact that they over loaned on this gun and are trying to recoup which is why they do not want to lower their price.

[LostintheOzone]

Could be a 1K shooter but I would have to field strip it myself to look at bushing fit, might be custom fit. Slide/frame fit would have to be tight, no discernable play in any direction. Also trigger would have to be crisp, check with snap cap. Looks to be series 70 pistol so that would be a plus.

I wouldn't run away from it because it's someone's custom but if you don't know how to check those things it's risky at 1K. $800 would be more better if you can't do a hands on inspection. Lots of those in the wild, you just need to know how to check under the hood.

Forgot the grips. Take those off and check for rust. Chances are good the owner isn't going to let you field strip it so move on if that's the case.