Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

Firearms & Knives - Other Brands Post Your Non-S&W Gun and Blade Topics and General Gun Topics Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-01-2021, 04:48 PM
CH4's Avatar
CH4 CH4 is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Sin City
Posts: 6,058
Likes: 12,468
Liked 12,496 Times in 3,857 Posts
Default

I like my Christensen Arms Mesa in 6.5 CM for hunting deer, antelope, coyote duty from 0-600 yards. Mine wears a Leupold VXHD6 2-12.
__________________
FBINA 213
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-01-2021, 08:48 PM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Harlem, Ohio
Posts: 10,485
Likes: 14,397
Liked 16,970 Times in 6,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruger 22 View Post
Please excuse the non-informed question but I have been away from rifles for a very long time and note that the 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be the current rage. What can it do that a .270 Win or .264 Win or .257 Weatherby cannot do?
I have a 264 Win Mag.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will separate you from your hard earned cash to do less, but cost more. 257WM, 264 Win Mag, and 270 Win, are all traditional long range hunting rounds. Quality guns seem to be the norm now, but when the old boys ruled, EVERYBODY heard your shot!

Ivan
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #53  
Old 09-01-2021, 09:10 PM
diyj98 diyj98 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WV
Posts: 1,800
Likes: 157
Liked 1,977 Times in 902 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruger 22 View Post
Please excuse the non-informed question but I have been away from rifles for a very long time and note that the 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be the current rage. What can it do that a .270 Win or .264 Win or .257 Weatherby cannot do?
I haven't jumped on the Creedmore bandwagon, but here's an article offering some of the advantages The 6.5 Creedmoor Versus the .264 Winchester Magnum.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-01-2021, 10:55 PM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 9,768
Likes: 6,561
Liked 24,779 Times in 6,779 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruger 22 View Post
Please excuse the non-informed question but I have been away from rifles for a very long time and note that the 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be the current rage. What can it do that a .270 Win or .264 Win or .257 Weatherby cannot do?
Nothing really. Basically it is a necked down 308 with bit straighter body and a 30į shoulder instead of a 20į angle for a bit more capacity. You could also call it a 6.5x55 improved You can get some great bullets with solid ballistic coefficient numbers for the 6.5. But, real advantage over the 270, none over the 264 mag or the 257 Weatherby except that it will work in a shorter and therefore theoretically stiffer action. In most cases the shooter will make more difference that the actual round IMHO

Last edited by steelslaver; 09-01-2021 at 11:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-01-2021, 11:40 PM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Rochester, NH USA
Posts: 3,567
Likes: 1,026
Liked 3,932 Times in 1,387 Posts
Default

Since you like Remington and .308, I would like to suggest a 700 LRT if you can find one... 20" barrel, extremely accurate....

Another vote would be for the Ruger Precision Rifle also in .308...several friends have them in .308, 6.5 and .338 Lapua and they are very accurate...

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-02-2021, 02:19 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 1,982
Likes: 8,091
Liked 1,161 Times in 644 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake1945 View Post
My oops! It would be for target shooting at my private range. I lean toward the .308 and Remington M24.
Thank you for your replys, was very helpful!
I would start with a Savage 110 in 308, heavy barrel, cryogenics - 300 below.com, Sharp Shooter trigger about 3-4 oz.,Choate stock, harris bipod,Leupold 4 X 14 X 40, mildot, then a careful 60 round break in. Then you need to practice, and if you reload work up a good 165-175 gr load and it will work for paper or animal out to 1000 yards. After a good cleaning and break in I also use Sentry Solutions Smooth Kote in the barrel. 3 shot, One hole groups @ 300 yards are easy. Check out Savage custom shop, a dedicated left hand, SS, with a bedded Savage stock, heavy barrel, threaded for around 700-800$ complete. Best option for accuracy from the factory. Enjoy. Be SAfe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-02-2021, 06:22 AM
diyj98 diyj98 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: WV
Posts: 1,800
Likes: 157
Liked 1,977 Times in 902 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=vipermd;141247837
3 shot, One hole groups @ 300 yards are easy.[/QUOTE]

That might be a tad optimistic. I was thinking the world record 300 yard group was still over 1/4Ē.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-02-2021, 11:02 AM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW MT
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 6,368
Liked 3,997 Times in 2,036 Posts
Default

For long distance paper punching, the first thing you will need is a stock that fits you and has a flat beavertail forend. You will also need a very good trigger and strict attention to brass prep work. Chose what action you want from Winchester, Savage or Remington and call your gunsmith to see what he thinks about putting a barrel on one.
Find a rifle from a pawnshop that looks like it has been tossed in the back of a truck and used as a canoe paddle in long action if you want an 06 based or short if you want 308 based. All you want from a rifle is the action.
Consider a 260 Remington if you want a short action rifle, 308 necked to 6.5. It has a few grains more powder capacity than the Creedmore though it is generally held to 60 K psi where the Creed is nearer to 65K.
__________________
Front sight and squeeze
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #59  
Old 09-02-2021, 11:36 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 1,982
Likes: 8,091
Liked 1,161 Times in 644 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
That might be a tad optimistic. I was thinking the world record 300 yard group was still over 1/4Ē.
I looked around and could not find a 3 shot, 300 yd world record. I will see if I have any of the targets, but I was working on 200 yd one hole, than moved to 300 yard one hole, only have my wife as my witness. This is off a bench, with hand loads. My wife will not even shoot it off the bench @ 100- Boring. I was doing crop damage for a neighbor and had his 14 yo son dropping deer at 300 with ease. From the prone position, with this rifle, and ammo 300 yards is a chip shot, but I have been shooting for more than 50 years. I will admit that the first time you put 2 through the same hole, that third usually wants to move an 1/8 ". I shoot Savage 110 's in 308, 300wm, 338 wm and all shoot very well. Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-02-2021, 12:40 PM
Imissedagain's Avatar
Imissedagain Imissedagain is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 999
Liked 2,095 Times in 998 Posts
Default

This might be what you're looking for but remember...
it's an adult caliber... not a junior caliber like 308.


We have an older Weaver T36 that is good for longer ranges punching paper etc etc.

FYI: Weaver said it can handle 375H&H recoil levels.
__________________
Have Fun/Stay Safe
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 09-03-2021, 10:32 AM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW MT
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 6,368
Liked 3,997 Times in 2,036 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
I looked around and could not find a 3 shot, 300 yd world record. I will see if I have any of the targets, but I was working on 200 yd one hole, than moved to 300 yard one hole, only have my wife as my witness. This is off a bench, with hand loads.
I will admit that the first time you put 2 through the same hole, that third usually wants to move an 1/8 ". I shoot Savage 110 's in 308, 300wm, 338 wm and all shoot very well. Be Safe,
As a late friend used to say "When did a GROUP become less than ten rounds".
__________________
Front sight and squeeze
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #62  
Old 09-03-2021, 10:49 AM
THE PILGRIM's Avatar
THE PILGRIM THE PILGRIM is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM
Posts: 11,380
Likes: 6,931
Liked 20,061 Times in 6,875 Posts
Default

Way back, Iím shooting my Savage 270.
Two Guys set up at the next door Benches.
One Dude is Double Proud of his Weatherby 257.
Paid big bucks, special ordered.
His Buddy had his Ruger 77 Heavy Barrel in 243.
Away we go!
That Ruger was Clover Leafing! Penny - Nickel Size Groups.
My Savage was producing Half Dollar size groups.
The Weatherby? Donít know of a Coin that big.
Think Frisbee! He could barely keep them on the paper.
Somebody was not a Happy Camper!
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-03-2021, 11:00 AM
Doug M.'s Avatar
Doug M. Doug M. is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 6,164
Likes: 10,395
Liked 6,887 Times in 2,842 Posts
Default

I wonder if I can see well enough at 300 to shoot at much of anything ...
__________________
NHI, 10-8.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #64  
Old 09-03-2021, 11:10 AM
Patrick L Patrick L is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 767
Likes: 9
Liked 1,411 Times in 359 Posts
Default

If you are just target shooting, don't overlook the good old . 223/5.56. Low recoil, easy to reload, and in a quality rifle with quality glass it will perform. I just personally don't think it's a game cartridge, but then others with more experience would disagree on that too.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #65  
Old 09-03-2021, 11:32 AM
BearBio BearBio is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 4,900
Likes: 3,215
Liked 6,773 Times in 2,535 Posts
Default

If you are hunting, Think: how big is a jack-rabbit's kill area?; then think "elk" or "mule deer" or "antelope".

Paper punching is a different story!
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-03-2021, 11:54 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 10,332
Likes: 1,905
Liked 8,253 Times in 3,892 Posts
Default

With a good rifle & scope the .22 cal. bullet can work with the right weight bullet for the range if the winds is light and not gusty.

The 6mm bullets have really inproved in style and drift a lot less than the smaller .22 bullets, if you don;t have nice weather to shoot in.

The old .30 cal. bullets have always been tac drivers out of a short case .308 as well as a nice bolt action 30-06 if you happen to have one around the house.

In my 30-06 rifle I use a 147-150 grain bullet from 100 to 300 yards and
move up to a 165 weigh bullet out to 500 yards........with a 180 if windy.

My long range bullet that works for my barrel, is a 200 grain SP/BT design.

A good supply of bullet weights is nice to have but just one or two weight bullets will work in a pinch.

Good luck.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:08 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,272
Likes: 2,015
Liked 8,227 Times in 2,277 Posts
Default

You have lots of options for 300-600 yards.

.308 is a great choice out to 600 yards and capable out to 800 or so with the right bullet.

6.5 CM is flatter shooting and arguably has a higher first round hit probability at longer ranges but thatís not much of a factor at 600 or less. 6.5 also has an accurate barrel life of around 2500-3000 rounds depending on how hard you push it.

In contrast the ..308 has an accurate barrel life out around 10,000 rounds with a mild load like M852.

Iím biased and I have three of them.

Iíve had a Ruger 77 Mk II VT for over 25 years now and it was my go to precision hunting rifle. I ditched the heavy laminated stock and went with a Hogue over older stock. If you go that route donít get the overly bendy pillar bedded version but instead get the Hoque with the bedding block. Itís much stiffer in the fore end.

I selected the 77 VT at the time as it had a decent factory trigger (at a time when those were very rare) and had. A26Ē medium heavy barrel that si light enough to carry in the field, long enough to maximize .308 ballistics, yet still stable.

Itís throated for traditional 168-175 gr .308 bullets and the 26Ē barrel adds about 150 FPS to the velocity compared to a 20Ē barrel. I use 168gr SMKs for range work and 165 gr game kings for hunting purposes. The trajectories are functionally identical out to practical and ethical hunting ranges of 500 yards or less.



I also bought a no frills Remington 700 tactical about 8 years ago. I bought it as a project gun and immediately replaced the stock and the trigger. The Remington X mark triggers are really poor, and the 700 Tactical uses the bendy pillar bedded Hogue stock. I replaced it with a B&C medalist with an aluminum bedding block.

I had planned to replace the barrel. Itís not tack driving quarter MOA accurate but it is a solid 3/4 MOA 5 shot group barrel. More importantly itís a solid 1 MOA 20 shot group barrel, and the first shot cold bore point of aim is the same as its warm barrel point of aim. In short itís incredibly consistent and predictable and for first shot on target accuracy, that is priceless.

The 20Ē barrel is well suited to 600 yard ranges and itís short enough throated that magazine length rounds give good accuracy even with secant ogive bullets like the 168 gr SMK. The 168 gr SMK bullet itself is great at 600 yards, but doesnít transition well to sub sonic velocities so itís limited to about 750-800 yards.



I also have a Bergara B-14, one of the older ones with the Savage barrel system, which makes rebarreling or swapping calibers a lot easier. As a chassis system itís heavier and it does have a muzzle brake. Iím not a fan of either in .308, but at 56 years of age and with tens of thousands of rounds down range from tightly slung prone position shooting, I have to worry to limit the floaters from lattice degeneration so recoil reduction has become a bigger deal.

Itís a solid 1/2 MOA 5 shot group rifle, but it is long throated and very picky about bullets loaded to magazine length. Secant ogive bullets donít do well with the long jump to the lands and it shoots much better with a tangent ogive bullet (which are unfortunately draggy) or a hybrid ogive bullet like the 175 gr RDF.

Between the weight and the 20Ē barrel it starts out slow, but itís low drag and transitions to sub sonic velocities very well so itís a legitimate 1000 yard .308.



óó-

The point here is that different rifles do different things, as there are always design compromises that have to be made.

What rifle is best for you depends on what you plan to do with it and what you plan to shoot in it.

For a 300-600 yard rifle you really donít need new bullet technology as the old school 168 gr SMK or similar bullet from that era will work fine. A 20Ē barrel is also adequate. But you should meet one that is designed with a short enough leade to tolerate bullets seated to magazine length, unless you plan to use it as a single shot.

You also want a stock design that meets your needs as either a heavy range toy or a gun intended to be carried. Even then a light precision rifle will be in the 11 pound range with a suitable scope.

óó

Scope choice is a whole thread in and of itself, it there some basics:

1) For long range shooting the adjustments must be utterly reliable, consistent and accurate. I have never hand any complaints about NightForce scopes in that regard, and in terms of maximum bang for the buck the Nikon Black scopes were superb. Itís a shame Nikon got out of the scope business.

2) Magnification does not produce resolution, objective diameter does. Resolving power is a function of objective lens diameter and objective lens quality. Unfortunately larger lenses are exponentially more expensive to produce at the same level of quality. 56mm is about the upper limit for a practical sized scope.

Get a 50mm or 56 mm scope with a reasonable magnification range with a max of around 14-16x and you wonít go far wrong.

More magnification will just reduce exit pupil size and produce a grainy, dark, and less sharp image under real world light conditions. Many paper target shooters use very high magnification scopes, but they are shooting high contrast targets on bright sunny days. If you need to see a low contrast target on over cast days or near dawn or dusk you need a decent exit pupil. Exit pupil is roughly the objective diameter divided by magnification. So a 56mm scope at 14x creates a 4.0mm exit pupil and thatís about as small as you want to go in a low light situation. A 50mm scope at 25x produces a 2.0mm exit pupil and thatís really only going to be useful on a bright sunny day.

3) ED glass is nice and reduces both chromatic aberration (false color) and produces a sharper image as all the wavelengths of light come to focus closer to each other, but it is expensive. However, at rifle scope objective lens diameters, an achromatic lens system wonít be the limiting factor on a warm day with any kind of mirage happening.

4) long range shooting requires a reasonably large range of elevation adjustment. A 20 or 30 MOA rail or mount can help maximize what you have but a scope with 100 MOA of adjustment is much more permissive than one with 60 MOA, of adjustment. In most models you start to run out of available elevation adjustment at the extremes of elevation adjustment and in all bu the Uber expensive scopes, optical quality degrades to some degree outside the center of the optical system - where you are at at the extremes of your elevation adjustment. So more adjustment range is better, all other things being equal.

5) Much is made of first focal plane (FFP) versus second focal plane (SFP) scopes. FFP is what the cool kids think they need to have, but in my experience 95% of the FFP users either donít take advantage of the two things it does better, or donít need it and would be better served by an SFP scope. And if they know it, they wonít admit it.

FFP means the reticle subtends the same angular distance regardless of magnification. It it is 2 MOA or 1/10 mil between hash marks at 14x, itíll be the same 2 MOA or 1/10 mil at 4x.

Thatís nice to have if you are using the reticle for elevation or windage hold offs or for shooting moving targets at different magnifications. Itís also nice if you are using the reticle to range targets at different magnifications.

However there is no free lunch. For a given level of optical quality FFP scopes are always more expensive than SFP scope. More importantly the reticle in a FFP scope is always a compromise. At maximum magnification the lines in the reticle will be larger than they are in an SFP scope. That can result in them covering a small target at long range. Conversely at low magnification, both the reticle and the lines in the reticle get smaller. If the reticle is full size at 16x, it will be only 25 percent sized at 4x. Since you have to use lower magnification to get sharper images in low light, youíll be forced to use a small reticle with thin lines that are hard to even see in low light. Illumination helps, but small hash marks close together now mean you are not able to use the hold off advantaged anyway.

In an SFP scope the reticle size stays the same regardless of magnification. That means that in a 4-14x scope the hash marks in the reticle subtend 2 MOA or 1/10 mil only at 14x (and subtend twice that at 7x). That limits hold offs and reticle ranging to 14x (or 7x and some head work to double the normal subtension.

But the lines wonít be too large at maximum magnification and will be easier to see in low light without relying on illumination that can wash out the target in the background.

Pick what you need, not what your friends think is cool.

6) mil versus MOA. Thatís a cat fight in any thread. Pick the one you want. Mil involves fewer digits to communicate with a spotter in some circumstances, while MOA makes estimating unknown target sizes more intuitive for most shooters who use imperial units. The head math is generally much easier if you donít Ross lines between mil/MOA and metric/imperial units. People will disagree with that and talk about using yards with mils because it is all angular measurement. However they will also criticize the rounding used to make the head math simple with MOA and yards (1 MOA = 1Ē at 95.5 yds, not 100 yards), without realizing they doing a similar thing in the end.

Pick what you want. Just be sure the units used in the reticle match the units on the adjustment turrets.

7) what ever you pick, plan on spending at least as much on the scope as you spend on the rifle.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #68  
Old 09-03-2021, 03:22 PM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgianni View Post
As a late friend used to say "When did a GROUP become less than ten rounds".
At Boot Camp we were taught to make sight adjustments on three round groups. But then I guess the Marines don't know anything about shooting. Or is it some folks can't get a GROUP without firing ten rounds.
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #69  
Old 09-03-2021, 03:23 PM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Why is it that everyone shows their rifles, but never any targets?
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #70  
Old 09-03-2021, 04:17 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,272
Likes: 2,015
Liked 8,227 Times in 2,277 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ View Post
Why is it that everyone shows their rifles, but never any targets?


Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 09-03-2021, 04:20 PM
ameridaddy ameridaddy is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 6,963
Liked 4,299 Times in 1,347 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
You have lots of options for 300-600 yards.

.308 is a great choice out to 600 yards and capable out to 800 or so with the right bullet.

6.5 CM is flatter shooting and arguably has a higher first round hit probability at longer ranges but thatís not much of a factor at 600 or less. 6.5 also has an accurate barrel life of around 2500-3000 rounds depending on how hard you push it.

In contrast the ..308 has an accurate barrel life out around 10,000 rounds with a mild load like M852.

Iím biased and I have three of them.

Iíve had a Ruger 77 Mk II VT for over 25 years now and it was my go to precision hunting rifle. I ditched the heavy laminated stock and went with a Hogue over older stock. If you go that route donít get the overly bendy pillar bedded version but instead get the Hoque with the bedding block. Itís much stiffer in the fore end.

I selected the 77 VT at the time as it had a decent factory trigger (at a time when those were very rare) and had. A26Ē medium heavy barrel that si light enough to carry in the field, long enough to maximize .308 ballistics, yet still stable.

Itís throated for traditional 168-175 gr .308 bullets and the 26Ē barrel adds about 150 FPS to the velocity compared to a 20Ē barrel. I use 168gr SMKs for range work and 165 gr game kings for hunting purposes. The trajectories are functionally identical out to practical and ethical hunting ranges of 500 yards or less.



I also bought a no frills Remington 700 tactical about 8 years ago. I bought it as a project gun and immediately replaced the stock and the trigger. The Remington X mark triggers are really poor, and the 700 Tactical uses the bendy pillar bedded Hogue stock. I replaced it with a B&C medalist with an aluminum bedding block.

I had planned to replace the barrel. Itís not tack driving quarter MOA accurate but it is a solid 3/4 MOA 5 shot group barrel. More importantly itís a solid 1 MOA 20 shot group barrel, and the first shot cold bore point of aim is the same as its warm barrel point of aim. In short itís incredibly consistent and predictable and for first shot on target accuracy, that is priceless.

The 20Ē barrel is well suited to 600 yard ranges and itís short enough throated that magazine length rounds give good accuracy even with secant ogive bullets like the 168 gr SMK. The 168 gr SMK bullet itself is great at 600 yards, but doesnít transition well to sub sonic velocities so itís limited to about 750-800 yards.



I also have a Bergara B-14, one of the older ones with the Savage barrel system, which makes rebarreling or swapping calibers a lot easier. As a chassis system itís heavier and it does have a muzzle brake. Iím not a fan of either in .308, but at 56 years of age and with tens of thousands of rounds down range from tightly slung prone position shooting, I have to worry to limit the floaters from lattice degeneration so recoil reduction has become a bigger deal.

Itís a solid 1/2 MOA 5 shot group rifle, but it is long throated and very picky about bullets loaded to magazine length. Secant ogive bullets donít do well with the long jump to the lands and it shoots much better with a tangent ogive bullet (which are unfortunately draggy) or a hybrid ogive bullet like the 175 gr RDF.

Between the weight and the 20Ē barrel it starts out slow, but itís low drag and transitions to sub sonic velocities very well so itís a legitimate 1000 yard .308.



óó-

The point here is that different rifles do different things, as there are always design compromises that have to be made.

What rifle is best for you depends on what you plan to do with it and what you plan to shoot in it.

For a 300-600 yard rifle you really donít need new bullet technology as the old school 168 gr SMK or similar bullet from that era will work fine. A 20Ē barrel is also adequate. But you should meet one that is designed with a short enough leade to tolerate bullets seated to magazine length, unless you plan to use it as a single shot.

You also want a stock design that meets your needs as either a heavy range toy or a gun intended to be carried. Even then a light precision rifle will be in the 11 pound range with a suitable scope.

óó

Scope choice is a whole thread in and of itself, it there some basics:

1) For long range shooting the adjustments must be utterly reliable, consistent and accurate. I have never hand any complaints about NightForce scopes in that regard, and in terms of maximum bang for the buck the Nikon Black scopes were superb. Itís a shame Nikon got out of the scope business.

2) Magnification does not produce resolution, objective diameter does. Resolving power is a function of objective lens diameter and objective lens quality. Unfortunately larger lenses are exponentially more expensive to produce at the same level of quality. 56mm is about the upper limit for a practical sized scope.

Get a 50mm or 56 mm scope with a reasonable magnification range with a max of around 14-16x and you wonít go far wrong.

More magnification will just reduce exit pupil size and produce a grainy, dark, and less sharp image under real world light conditions. Many paper target shooters use very high magnification scopes, but they are shooting high contrast targets on bright sunny days. If you need to see a low contrast target on over cast days or near dawn or dusk you need a decent exit pupil. Exit pupil is roughly the objective diameter divided by magnification. So a 56mm scope at 14x creates a 4.0mm exit pupil and thatís about as small as you want to go in a low light situation. A 50mm scope at 25x produces a 2.0mm exit pupil and thatís really only going to be useful on a bright sunny day.

3) ED glass is nice and reduces both chromatic aberration (false color) and produces a sharper image as all the wavelengths of light come to focus closer to each other, but it is expensive. However, at rifle scope objective lens diameters, an achromatic lens system wonít be the limiting factor on a warm day with any kind of mirage happening.

4) long range shooting requires a reasonably large range of elevation adjustment. A 20 or 30 MOA rail or mount can help maximize what you have but a scope with 100 MOA of adjustment is much more permissive than one with 60 MOA, of adjustment. In most models you start to run out of available elevation adjustment at the extremes of elevation adjustment and in all bu the Uber expensive scopes, optical quality degrades to some degree outside the center of the optical system - where you are at at the extremes of your elevation adjustment. So more adjustment range is better, all other things being equal.

5) Much is made of first focal plane (FFP) versus second focal plane (SFP) scopes. FFP is what the cool kids think they need to have, but in my experience 95% of the FFP users either donít take advantage of the two things it does better, or donít need it and would be better served by an SFP scope. And if they know it, they wonít admit it.

FFP means the reticle subtends the same angular distance regardless of magnification. It it is 2 MOA or 1/10 mil between hash marks at 14x, itíll be the same 2 MOA or 1/10 mil at 4x.

Thatís nice to have if you are using the reticle for elevation or windage hold offs or for shooting moving targets at different magnifications. Itís also nice if you are using the reticle to range targets at different magnifications.

However there is no free lunch. For a given level of optical quality FFP scopes are always more expensive than SFP scope. More importantly the reticle in a FFP scope is always a compromise. At maximum magnification the lines in the reticle will be larger than they are in an SFP scope. That can result in them covering a small target at long range. Conversely at low magnification, both the reticle and the lines in the reticle get smaller. If the reticle is full size at 16x, it will be only 25 percent sized at 4x. Since you have to use lower magnification to get sharper images in low light, youíll be forced to use a small reticle with thin lines that are hard to even see in low light. Illumination helps, but small hash marks close together now mean you are not able to use the hold off advantaged anyway.

In an SFP scope the reticle size stays the same regardless of magnification. That means that in a 4-14x scope the hash marks in the reticle subtend 2 MOA or 1/10 mil only at 14x (and subtend twice that at 7x). That limits hold offs and reticle ranging to 14x (or 7x and some head work to double the normal subtension.

But the lines wonít be too large at maximum magnification and will be easier to see in low light without relying on illumination that can wash out the target in the background.

Pick what you need, not what your friends think is cool.

6) mil versus MOA. Thatís a cat fight in any thread. Pick the one you want. Mil involves fewer digits to communicate with a spotter in some circumstances, while MOA makes estimating unknown target sizes more intuitive for most shooters who use imperial units. The head math is generally much easier if you donít Ross lines between mil/MOA and metric/imperial units. People will disagree with that and talk about using yards with mils because it is all angular measurement. However they will also criticize the rounding used to make the head math simple with MOA and yards (1 MOA = 1Ē at 95.5 yds, not 100 yards), without realizing they doing a similar thing in the end.

Pick what you want. Just be sure the units used in the reticle match the units on the adjustment turrets.

7) what ever you pick, plan on spending at least as much on the scope as you spend on the rifle.
Very nicely organized, thorough write up!
Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 09-03-2021, 04:53 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 3,272
Likes: 2,015
Liked 8,227 Times in 2,277 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ View Post
At Boot Camp we were taught to make sight adjustments on three round groups. But then I guess the Marines don't know anything about shooting. Or is it some folks can't get a GROUP without firing ten rounds.
That can be viewed a couple different ways.

1) Three shots is enough to get a general idea of the point of aim, for sight adjustment purposes.

2) At the same time if the shooter knows his or her stuff and the rifle is accurate, 1 shot is enough.

- With a scope you fire one shot, then readjust the rifle so that the cross hairs are back on the point of aim and hold it steady while you adjust the cross hairs to the hole in the target, done. Fire three shots to confirm.

- With iron sights you can do the same thing but itís a little harder.

- if you have a target with lines on it to to measure distance, mils or MOA, you can note the impact and put the correction on the sights whether itís glass or iron. Still done.

óó

Shooting groups to determine the accuracy of the rifle and load is different. Random chance and normal distribution being what it is, itís pretty easy to get a three shot group that suggests far better accuracy than the rifle really produces.

First you have to define accuracy and to do that we have to talk about standard deviation and normal distribution. If you fire 100 shots, 67 of them will be within 1 SD of the mean (average), 95 of them will be within 2 SD of the mean, and 99 of them will be within 3 SD of the mean.

Now, this means either side of the mean. If the mean level of accuracy is 1 MOA from the point of aim and the SD is .4 MOA, then 67 of 100 shots will fall within 1 SD with 33 or 34 between 0.6 and 1.0 MOA of the target and 33 or 34 between 1.0 and 1.4 MOA of the target.

13 or 14 of them will fall between .2 and .6 MOA of the target and 13 or 14 of them will fall between 1.4 and 1.8 MOA.

1 of them will fall between 0 and .2 MOA or between 1.8 and 2.2 MOA.

So letís talk about odds. Half the shots above will be better than average and half will be worse than average.

With a three shot group the odds of all three shots being better than average is .5x.5x.5= .125 which is one in 8. Shoot 8 three shot groups and you are virtually assured of getting a good one.

With a 5 shot group the odds decrease to .031. Thatís 1 in 32. You have to shoot 32 groups before your are likely to get one where all three shots are better than average.

Thatís 4 time harder.

Now shoot three 5 shot groups in a row.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 09-03-2021, 05:39 PM
Imissedagain's Avatar
Imissedagain Imissedagain is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 999
Liked 2,095 Times in 998 Posts
Default

Here's a target!

Offhand at 100 yards with different calibers.
Groups not that tight but I'm employable in Switzerland.

Three holes at 100yds with 3rd a called flyer.
223 Rem UMC 50gr JHP.
The old Styer SL with set trigger.
The rifle could put 5-10 into one ragged hole at 100 with a T36 scope.
Now have a 2004 No.1V in 223 with 1:12 but have not had time ring it out yet.

Two's a coincidence.
Three or more a group.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 0BABD164-364D-4115-9D56-D663B2F34233.jpeg (47.5 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpeg F687067D-C2B0-45D7-90CC-422BFF2FA2E7.jpeg (9.9 KB, 13 views)
__________________
Have Fun/Stay Safe

Last edited by Imissedagain; 09-03-2021 at 05:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 09-03-2021, 06:27 PM
Rolex28's Avatar
Rolex28 Rolex28 is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 166
Likes: 24
Liked 242 Times in 106 Posts
Default

I sure liked my M-14, then added a selector switch making it fully automatic. Then add any scope you want. It's only money!!

Last edited by Rolex28; 09-03-2021 at 06:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 09-03-2021, 09:19 PM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imissedagain View Post
Here's a target!

Offhand at 100 yards with different calibers.
Groups not that tight but I'm employable in Switzerland.

Three holes at 100yds with 3rd a called flyer.
223 Rem UMC 50gr JHP.
The old Styer SL with set trigger.
The rifle could put 5-10 into one ragged hole at 100 with a T36 scope.
Now have a 2004 No.1V in 223 with 1:12 but have not had time ring it out yet.

Two's a coincidence.
Three or more a group.

Not to bad. Here is mine same distance: http://smith-wessonforum.com/141247022-post37.html

I think your first target will taste better! 😊
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 09-04-2021, 05:02 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW MT
Posts: 5,202
Likes: 6,368
Liked 3,997 Times in 2,036 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ View Post
At Boot Camp we were taught to make sight adjustments on three round groups. But then I guess the Marines don't know anything about shooting. Or is it some folks can't get a GROUP without firing ten rounds.
Three is fine for sight adjustments. When shooting competition, the late friend I quoted who instructed Olympic level shooters and the Canada National team, said "three shots might show you the guns capability, ten shows you the shooters".
See what happens when you want to only shoot three at Camp Perry and other World Class events.
__________________
Front sight and squeeze
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #77  
Old 09-04-2021, 05:13 PM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgianni View Post
Three is fine for sight adjustments. When shooting competition, the late friend I quoted who instructed Olympic level shooters and the Canada National team, said "three shots might show you the guns capability, ten shows you the shooters".
See what happens when you want to only shoot three at Camp Perry and other World Class events.
If that works for you that is good. What I mentioned works for me and that is what I'll use. No desires to shoot at Camp Perry, maybe 30-40 years ago, but not now.
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 09-05-2021, 07:27 AM
Greyman50's Avatar
Greyman50 Greyman50 is online now
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Florida
Posts: 760
Likes: 1,695
Liked 1,202 Times in 446 Posts
Default

5BF1044A-D3E4-4C37-B8DD-F30945943511.jpgThis was my Ruger American at 400 yards shot off the daughters deck railing, no bag or comfortable chair. 1st 2 in center about 1Ē apart, 2nd 2 almost touching. Forget the scope but was a 8-20. Bought it from friend that needed $$$, had until I moved to Florida and no place to shoot so son got it. Had a Winchester Mdl. 70 in .270 back in 70-80ís with a 70ís Redfield ď ARTĒ scope, would never group close to the 6.5 Creed. Tried every mfg. rounds in all available weights, even hand loads, still not close.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:03 AM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyman50 View Post
Attachment 530850This was my Ruger American at 400 yards shot off the daughters deck railing, no bag or comfortable chair. 1st 2 in center about 1Ē apart, 2nd 2 almost touching. Forget the scope but was a 8-20. Bought it from friend that needed $$$, had until I moved to Florida and no place to shoot so son got it. Had a Winchester Mdl. 70 in .270 back in 70-80ís with a 70ís Redfield ď ARTĒ scope, would never group close to the 6.5 Creed. Tried every mfg. rounds in all available weights, even hand loads, still not close.
Where in Florida? I have a range 6 miles from my house that has rifle, pistol, and shotgun ranges. It is a small range as the rifle only goes to 200 yards. About 30 miles up the road is another range, that had much the same except they have a 600 yard rifle range.
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #80  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:29 AM
Narragansett's Avatar
Narragansett Narragansett is offline
SWCA Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,101
Likes: 10,458
Liked 8,428 Times in 2,567 Posts
Default

Well, there is not much to go on here, like what it will be used for. Also, how much recoil punishment can you handle. Me I shoot the 30-06. It is the largest caliber I handle well. I would look for an older Browning Safari grade built on a Mauser action, or the older Sako built on a mauser action that only came in 270 or 30-06. The same Sako came in a longer action and was 300 H&H and 375 H&H.

So my choice is a Browning Safari, Belgium made, Mauser action in 270, 308, 30-06, 300 Winchester magnum, or the 7mm Remington magnum. If you are hunting prairie dogs, the 270 would probably be flattest shooting without being beaten up. Although the 7mm Remington Magnum is pretty flat shooting, but too much recoil for me
__________________
Pete
We deal in lead ,friend
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #81  
Old 09-14-2021, 01:36 PM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 1,982
Likes: 8,091
Liked 1,161 Times in 644 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ View Post
At Boot Camp we were taught to make sight adjustments on three round groups. But then I guess the Marines don't know anything about shooting. Or is it some folks can't get a GROUP without firing ten rounds.
I guess My Grandfather, Father, and Brother all taught me wrong, I guess it must be that they are Marines. Be Safe,
__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #82  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:46 PM
AJ's Avatar
AJ AJ is offline
Member
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Central East Coast of Flo
Posts: 3,748
Likes: 892
Liked 5,205 Times in 2,127 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
I guess My Grandfather, Father, and Brother all taught me wrong, I guess it must be that they are Marines. Be Safe,
Not everyone wears an Expert shooting badge, even in the Marines. 😀
__________________
USMC 1969-1993
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #83  
Old 09-14-2021, 05:47 PM
cmansguns's Avatar
cmansguns cmansguns is offline
US Veteran
Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards Looking to buy a rifle for 300-600 yards  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Hanover, Virginia
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 2,223
Liked 4,015 Times in 1,032 Posts
Default Didn't see this one on anyone's list

Not the newest, no scope needed out to 300 yds IIRC on the KD ranges 50 plus years ago.

30-06 caliber....rugged, proven, 2 legged game gatherer of yesteryear....

John C.'s finest

For those that want to slow it down a bit...there is choice 2 in my book....same fine caliber.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Garand a.jpg (91.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg M1 Garand -1.jpg (221.5 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg M1 Garand -2.jpg (217.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 1903A3-1.jpg (213.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 1903A3-2.jpg (207.3 KB, 3 views)
__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Range report -- Black Rifle with Red Dot at 100 yards bushmaster1313 Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 9 07-08-2019 10:21 AM
Range Report Black Rifle at 100 yards with 4X scope bushmaster1313 Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 2 10-22-2018 08:14 AM
Range report -- Black Rifle with Red Dot at 100 yards bushmaster1313 Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 1 05-06-2018 06:30 PM
Shooting paintballs at 100 yards with MAS 45 .22 rifle (pics).... canoeguy Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 4 02-20-2010 08:01 PM
The Whole 9 Yards mikepriwer S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 17 12-23-2007 09:06 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:56 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)