I like my Christensen Arms Mesa in 6.5 CM for hunting deer, antelope, coyote duty from 0-600 yards. Mine wears a Leupold VXHD6 2-12.

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213th FBINA

I have a 264 Win Mag.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will separate you from your hard earned cash to do less, but cost more. 257WM, 264 Win Mag, and 270 Win, are all traditional long range hunting rounds. Quality guns seem to be the norm now, but when the old boys ruled, EVERYBODY heard your shot!

Ivan

I haven't jumped on the Creedmore bandwagon, but here's an article offering some of the advantages The 6.5 Creedmoor Versus the .264 Winchester Magnum.

Nothing really. Basically it is a necked down 308 with bit straighter body and a 30° shoulder instead of a 20° angle for a bit more capacity. You could also call it a 6.5x55 improved You can get some great bullets with solid ballistic coefficient numbers for the 6.5. But, real advantage over the 270, none over the 264 mag or the 257 Weatherby except that it will work in a shorter and therefore theoretically stiffer action. In most cases the shooter will make more difference that the actual round IMHO

Since you like Remington and .308, I would like to suggest a 700 LRT if you can find one... 20" barrel, extremely accurate....

Another vote would be for the Ruger Precision Rifle also in .308...several friends have them in .308, 6.5 and .338 Lapua and they are very accurate...

Bob

I would start with a Savage 110 in 308, heavy barrel, cryogenics - 300 below.com, Sharp Shooter trigger about 3-4 oz.,Choate stock, harris bipod,Leupold 4 X 14 X 40, mildot, then a careful 60 round break in. Then you need to practice, and if you reload work up a good 165-175 gr load and it will work for paper or animal out to 1000 yards. After a good cleaning and break in I also use Sentry Solutions Smooth Kote in the barrel. 3 shot, One hole groups @ 300 yards are easy. Check out Savage custom shop, a dedicated left hand, SS, with a bedded Savage stock, heavy barrel, threaded for around 700-800$ complete. Best option for accuracy from the factory. Enjoy. Be SAfe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

[QUOTE=vipermd;141247837
3 shot, One hole groups @ 300 yards are easy.[/QUOTE]

That might be a tad optimistic. I was thinking the world record 300 yard group was still over 1/4”.

For long distance paper punching, the first thing you will need is a stock that fits you and has a flat beavertail forend. You will also need a very good trigger and strict attention to brass prep work. Chose what action you want from Winchester, Savage or Remington and call your gunsmith to see what he thinks about putting a barrel on one.
Find a rifle from a pawnshop that looks like it has been tossed in the back of a truck and used as a canoe paddle in long action if you want an 06 based or short if you want 308 based. All you want from a rifle is the action.
Consider a 260 Remington if you want a short action rifle, 308 necked to 6.5. It has a few grains more powder capacity than the Creedmore though it is generally held to 60 K psi where the Creed is nearer to 65K.

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Front sight and squeeze

I looked around and could not find a 3 shot, 300 yd world record. I will see if I have any of the targets, but I was working on 200 yd one hole, than moved to 300 yard one hole, only have my wife as my witness. This is off a bench, with hand loads. My wife will not even shoot it off the bench @ 100- Boring. I was doing crop damage for a neighbor and had his 14 yo son dropping deer at 300 with ease. From the prone position, with this rifle, and ammo 300 yards is a chip shot, but I have been shooting for more than 50 years. I will admit that the first time you put 2 through the same hole, that third usually wants to move an 1/8 ". I shoot Savage 110 's in 308, 300wm, 338 wm and all shoot very well. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

This might be what you're looking for but remember...
it's an adult caliber... not a junior caliber like 308.


We have an older Weaver T36 that is good for longer ranges punching paper etc etc.

FYI: Weaver said it can handle 375H&H recoil levels.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

As a late friend used to say "When did a GROUP become less than ten rounds".

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Front sight and squeeze

Way back, I’m shooting my Savage 270.
Two Guys set up at the next door Benches.
One Dude is Double Proud of his Weatherby 257.
Paid big bucks, special ordered.
His Buddy had his Ruger 77 Heavy Barrel in 243.
Away we go!
That Ruger was Clover Leafing! Penny - Nickel Size Groups.
My Savage was producing Half Dollar size groups.
The Weatherby? Don’t know of a Coin that big.
Think Frisbee! He could barely keep them on the paper.
Somebody was not a Happy Camper!

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I wonder if I can see well enough at 300 to shoot at much of anything ...

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NHI, 10-8.

If you are just target shooting, don't overlook the good old . 223/5.56. Low recoil, easy to reload, and in a quality rifle with quality glass it will perform. I just personally don't think it's a game cartridge, but then others with more experience would disagree on that too.

If you are hunting, Think: how big is a jack-rabbit's kill area?; then think "elk" or "mule deer" or "antelope".

Paper punching is a different story!

With a good rifle & scope the .22 cal. bullet can work with the right weight bullet for the range if the winds is light and not gusty.

The 6mm bullets have really inproved in style and drift a lot less than the smaller .22 bullets, if you don;t have nice weather to shoot in.

The old .30 cal. bullets have always been tac drivers out of a short case .308 as well as a nice bolt action 30-06 if you happen to have one around the house.

In my 30-06 rifle I use a 147-150 grain bullet from 100 to 300 yards and
move up to a 165 weigh bullet out to 500 yards........with a 180 if windy.

My long range bullet that works for my barrel, is a 200 grain SP/BT design.

A good supply of bullet weights is nice to have but just one or two weight bullets will work in a pinch.

Good luck.

You have lots of options for 300-600 yards.

.308 is a great choice out to 600 yards and capable out to 800 or so with the right bullet.

6.5 CM is flatter shooting and arguably has a higher first round hit probability at longer ranges but that’s not much of a factor at 600 or less. 6.5 also has an accurate barrel life of around 2500-3000 rounds depending on how hard you push it.

In contrast the ..308 has an accurate barrel life out around 10,000 rounds with a mild load like M852.

I’m biased and I have three of them.

I’ve had a Ruger 77 Mk II VT for over 25 years now and it was my go to precision hunting rifle. I ditched the heavy laminated stock and went with a Hogue over older stock. If you go that route don’t get the overly bendy pillar bedded version but instead get the Hoque with the bedding block. It’s much stiffer in the fore end.

I selected the 77 VT at the time as it had a decent factory trigger (at a time when those were very rare) and had. A26” medium heavy barrel that si light enough to carry in the field, long enough to maximize .308 ballistics, yet still stable.

It’s throated for traditional 168-175 gr .308 bullets and the 26” barrel adds about 150 FPS to the velocity compared to a 20” barrel. I use 168gr SMKs for range work and 165 gr game kings for hunting purposes. The trajectories are functionally identical out to practical and ethical hunting ranges of 500 yards or less.



I also bought a no frills Remington 700 tactical about 8 years ago. I bought it as a project gun and immediately replaced the stock and the trigger. The Remington X mark triggers are really poor, and the 700 Tactical uses the bendy pillar bedded Hogue stock. I replaced it with a B&C medalist with an aluminum bedding block.

I had planned to replace the barrel. It’s not tack driving quarter MOA accurate but it is a solid 3/4 MOA 5 shot group barrel. More importantly it’s a solid 1 MOA 20 shot group barrel, and the first shot cold bore point of aim is the same as its warm barrel point of aim. In short it’s incredibly consistent and predictable and for first shot on target accuracy, that is priceless.

The 20” barrel is well suited to 600 yard ranges and it’s short enough throated that magazine length rounds give good accuracy even with secant ogive bullets like the 168 gr SMK. The 168 gr SMK bullet itself is great at 600 yards, but doesn’t transition well to sub sonic velocities so it’s limited to about 750-800 yards.



I also have a Bergara B-14, one of the older ones with the Savage barrel system, which makes rebarreling or swapping calibers a lot easier. As a chassis system it’s heavier and it does have a muzzle brake. I’m not a fan of either in .308, but at 56 years of age and with tens of thousands of rounds down range from tightly slung prone position shooting, I have to worry to limit the floaters from lattice degeneration so recoil reduction has become a bigger deal.

It’s a solid 1/2 MOA 5 shot group rifle, but it is long throated and very picky about bullets loaded to magazine length. Secant ogive bullets don’t do well with the long jump to the lands and it shoots much better with a tangent ogive bullet (which are unfortunately draggy) or a hybrid ogive bullet like the 175 gr RDF.

Between the weight and the 20” barrel it starts out slow, but it’s low drag and transitions to sub sonic velocities very well so it’s a legitimate 1000 yard .308.



——-

The point here is that different rifles do different things, as there are always design compromises that have to be made.

What rifle is best for you depends on what you plan to do with it and what you plan to shoot in it.

For a 300-600 yard rifle you really don’t need new bullet technology as the old school 168 gr SMK or similar bullet from that era will work fine. A 20” barrel is also adequate. But you should meet one that is designed with a short enough leade to tolerate bullets seated to magazine length, unless you plan to use it as a single shot.

You also want a stock design that meets your needs as either a heavy range toy or a gun intended to be carried. Even then a light precision rifle will be in the 11 pound range with a suitable scope.

——

Scope choice is a whole thread in and of itself, it there some basics:

1) For long range shooting the adjustments must be utterly reliable, consistent and accurate. I have never hand any complaints about NightForce scopes in that regard, and in terms of maximum bang for the buck the Nikon Black scopes were superb. It’s a shame Nikon got out of the scope business.

2) Magnification does not produce resolution, objective diameter does. Resolving power is a function of objective lens diameter and objective lens quality. Unfortunately larger lenses are exponentially more expensive to produce at the same level of quality. 56mm is about the upper limit for a practical sized scope.

Get a 50mm or 56 mm scope with a reasonable magnification range with a max of around 14-16x and you won’t go far wrong.

More magnification will just reduce exit pupil size and produce a grainy, dark, and less sharp image under real world light conditions. Many paper target shooters use very high magnification scopes, but they are shooting high contrast targets on bright sunny days. If you need to see a low contrast target on over cast days or near dawn or dusk you need a decent exit pupil. Exit pupil is roughly the objective diameter divided by magnification. So a 56mm scope at 14x creates a 4.0mm exit pupil and that’s about as small as you want to go in a low light situation. A 50mm scope at 25x produces a 2.0mm exit pupil and that’s really only going to be useful on a bright sunny day.

3) ED glass is nice and reduces both chromatic aberration (false color) and produces a sharper image as all the wavelengths of light come to focus closer to each other, but it is expensive. However, at rifle scope objective lens diameters, an achromatic lens system won’t be the limiting factor on a warm day with any kind of mirage happening.

4) long range shooting requires a reasonably large range of elevation adjustment. A 20 or 30 MOA rail or mount can help maximize what you have but a scope with 100 MOA of adjustment is much more permissive than one with 60 MOA, of adjustment. In most models you start to run out of available elevation adjustment at the extremes of elevation adjustment and in all bu the Uber expensive scopes, optical quality degrades to some degree outside the center of the optical system - where you are at at the extremes of your elevation adjustment. So more adjustment range is better, all other things being equal.

5) Much is made of first focal plane (FFP) versus second focal plane (SFP) scopes. FFP is what the cool kids think they need to have, but in my experience 95% of the FFP users either don’t take advantage of the two things it does better, or don’t need it and would be better served by an SFP scope. And if they know it, they won’t admit it.

FFP means the reticle subtends the same angular distance regardless of magnification. It it is 2 MOA or 1/10 mil between hash marks at 14x, it’ll be the same 2 MOA or 1/10 mil at 4x.

That’s nice to have if you are using the reticle for elevation or windage hold offs or for shooting moving targets at different magnifications. It’s also nice if you are using the reticle to range targets at different magnifications.

However there is no free lunch. For a given level of optical quality FFP scopes are always more expensive than SFP scope. More importantly the reticle in a FFP scope is always a compromise. At maximum magnification the lines in the reticle will be larger than they are in an SFP scope. That can result in them covering a small target at long range. Conversely at low magnification, both the reticle and the lines in the reticle get smaller. If the reticle is full size at 16x, it will be only 25 percent sized at 4x. Since you have to use lower magnification to get sharper images in low light, you’ll be forced to use a small reticle with thin lines that are hard to even see in low light. Illumination helps, but small hash marks close together now mean you are not able to use the hold off advantaged anyway.

In an SFP scope the reticle size stays the same regardless of magnification. That means that in a 4-14x scope the hash marks in the reticle subtend 2 MOA or 1/10 mil only at 14x (and subtend twice that at 7x). That limits hold offs and reticle ranging to 14x (or 7x and some head work to double the normal subtension.

But the lines won’t be too large at maximum magnification and will be easier to see in low light without relying on illumination that can wash out the target in the background.

Pick what you need, not what your friends think is cool.

6) mil versus MOA. That’s a cat fight in any thread. Pick the one you want. Mil involves fewer digits to communicate with a spotter in some circumstances, while MOA makes estimating unknown target sizes more intuitive for most shooters who use imperial units. The head math is generally much easier if you don’t Ross lines between mil/MOA and metric/imperial units. People will disagree with that and talk about using yards with mils because it is all angular measurement. However they will also criticize the rounding used to make the head math simple with MOA and yards (1 MOA = 1” at 95.5 yds, not 100 yards), without realizing they doing a similar thing in the end.

Pick what you want. Just be sure the units used in the reticle match the units on the adjustment turrets.

7) what ever you pick, plan on spending at least as much on the scope as you spend on the rifle.

At Boot Camp we were taught to make sight adjustments on three round groups. But then I guess the Marines don't know anything about shooting. Or is it some folks can't get a GROUP without firing ten rounds.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Why is it that everyone shows their rifles, but never any targets?

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Very nicely organized, thorough write up!
Thank you!

That can be viewed a couple different ways.

1) Three shots is enough to get a general idea of the point of aim, for sight adjustment purposes.

2) At the same time if the shooter knows his or her stuff and the rifle is accurate, 1 shot is enough.

- With a scope you fire one shot, then readjust the rifle so that the cross hairs are back on the point of aim and hold it steady while you adjust the cross hairs to the hole in the target, done. Fire three shots to confirm.

- With iron sights you can do the same thing but it’s a little harder.

- if you have a target with lines on it to to measure distance, mils or MOA, you can note the impact and put the correction on the sights whether it’s glass or iron. Still done.

——

Shooting groups to determine the accuracy of the rifle and load is different. Random chance and normal distribution being what it is, it’s pretty easy to get a three shot group that suggests far better accuracy than the rifle really produces.

First you have to define accuracy and to do that we have to talk about standard deviation and normal distribution. If you fire 100 shots, 67 of them will be within 1 SD of the mean (average), 95 of them will be within 2 SD of the mean, and 99 of them will be within 3 SD of the mean.

Now, this means either side of the mean. If the mean level of accuracy is 1 MOA from the point of aim and the SD is .4 MOA, then 67 of 100 shots will fall within 1 SD with 33 or 34 between 0.6 and 1.0 MOA of the target and 33 or 34 between 1.0 and 1.4 MOA of the target.

13 or 14 of them will fall between .2 and .6 MOA of the target and 13 or 14 of them will fall between 1.4 and 1.8 MOA.

1 of them will fall between 0 and .2 MOA or between 1.8 and 2.2 MOA.

So let’s talk about odds. Half the shots above will be better than average and half will be worse than average.

With a three shot group the odds of all three shots being better than average is .5x.5x.5= .125 which is one in 8. Shoot 8 three shot groups and you are virtually assured of getting a good one.

With a 5 shot group the odds decrease to .031. That’s 1 in 32. You have to shoot 32 groups before your are likely to get one where all three shots are better than average.

That’s 4 time harder.

Now shoot three 5 shot groups in a row.

Here's a target!

Offhand at 100 yards with different calibers.
Groups not that tight but I'm employable in Switzerland.

Three holes at 100yds with 3rd a called flyer.
223 Rem UMC 50gr JHP.
The old Styer SL with set trigger.
The rifle could put 5-10 into one ragged hole at 100 with a T36 scope.
Now have a 2004 No.1V in 223 with 1:12 but have not had time ring it out yet.

Two's a coincidence.
Three or more a group.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

I sure liked my M-14, then added a selector switch making it fully automatic. Then add any scope you want. It's only money!!

Not to bad. Here is mine same distance: http://smith-wessonforum.com/141247022-post37.html

I think your first target will taste better! 😊

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Three is fine for sight adjustments. When shooting competition, the late friend I quoted who instructed Olympic level shooters and the Canada National team, said "three shots might show you the guns capability, ten shows you the shooters".
See what happens when you want to only shoot three at Camp Perry and other World Class events.

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Front sight and squeeze

If that works for you that is good. What I mentioned works for me and that is what I'll use. No desires to shoot at Camp Perry, maybe 30-40 years ago, but not now.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

5BF1044A-D3E4-4C37-B8DD-F30945943511.jpgThis was my Ruger American at 400 yards shot off the daughters deck railing, no bag or comfortable chair. 1st 2 in center about 1” apart, 2nd 2 almost touching. Forget the scope but was a 8-20. Bought it from friend that needed $$$, had until I moved to Florida and no place to shoot so son got it. Had a Winchester Mdl. 70 in .270 back in 70-80’s with a 70’s Redfield “ ART” scope, would never group close to the 6.5 Creed. Tried every mfg. rounds in all available weights, even hand loads, still not close.

Where in Florida? I have a range 6 miles from my house that has rifle, pistol, and shotgun ranges. It is a small range as the rifle only goes to 200 yards. About 30 miles up the road is another range, that had much the same except they have a 600 yard rifle range.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Well, there is not much to go on here, like what it will be used for. Also, how much recoil punishment can you handle. Me I shoot the 30-06. It is the largest caliber I handle well. I would look for an older Browning Safari grade built on a Mauser action, or the older Sako built on a mauser action that only came in 270 or 30-06. The same Sako came in a longer action and was 300 H&H and 375 H&H.

So my choice is a Browning Safari, Belgium made, Mauser action in 270, 308, 30-06, 300 Winchester magnum, or the 7mm Remington magnum. If you are hunting prairie dogs, the 270 would probably be flattest shooting without being beaten up. Although the 7mm Remington Magnum is pretty flat shooting, but too much recoil for me

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

I guess My Grandfather, Father, and Brother all taught me wrong, I guess it must be that they are Marines. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Not everyone wears an Expert shooting badge, even in the Marines. 😀

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Not the newest, no scope needed out to 300 yds IIRC on the KD ranges 50 plus years ago.

30-06 caliber...****gged, proven, 2 legged game gatherer of yesteryear....

John C.'s finest

For those that want to slow it down a bit...there is choice 2 in my book....same fine caliber.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

True but my brother did in 1964 after he became a Marine , at Paris Island
Thank You for your service. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

I bought a Howa Hunter 1500 with walnut stock in 6.5 Creedmor for under 500 bucks and mounted a Vortex Diamondback 4-12X scope with long range reticle that was on sale for $220. I love the moderate recoil and I don't enjoy shooting an 06' or bigger off the bench. The reticle on the scope has circle marks I believe, out to 600 yards and I love shooting the gun and think it looks pretty classy for the money.

You are welcome and thank you. I was there in 1969. Was back in 2017 to see my Grandson graduate wearing his Expert badge.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Heck, if the OP wants to have some real fun shooting out to 600 yards (and beyond), I suggest buying a nice old Trapdoor with the Buffington rear sight and start slinging 500 grain slugs down range. It'll be a real learning experience.

John

The Range officer will not let anyone go out and take pictures of the metal targets out at 300 to 800 yards.

I have some 100 yard targets some where around the house......
maybe I can find one or two ?

Here is a 200 yard target that I found.
I had one of the guys at the range walk out to 200 yards for me,
since I just got the green light from my doctor to start shooting again
and I started with my light weight 22-250 rifle to see what would happen.
Having four of my neck vertebra fused together made getting down on the stock, very interresting.
I was finally able to figure somting out and try out some test loads that I had.

I generally don't give out loading data , but hay, here is one of my targets, to make you happy.

I used to shoot a 1918 Swedish m41/B 6.5X55 in vintage sniper matches. 800 yards is doable but pretty tough with that 4X Ajack sitting on it. The 6.5X55 is a fantastic round.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

I was weened on a 30-06 at 18 yo.(1978). In 1994 I wanted to bump up in power. I looked and looked and the 338 win mag is for any game in North America plus thin skinned game in Africa. That’s 4,000 ft.lbs @ muzzle and 2,700ft.lbs @ 200 yds. At 100 yds I put two bullets through the same hole.

1994, Remington 700 338 win mag. Winchester super x ammo.

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Plant garlic in the fall

I understand the problem. After Open Heart a few years back my Doctor would not let me shoot. And to be honest I did not feel like shooting either. When I went back to shooting it was with .22 LR heavy barrels.

Asking for targets that folks say they shot, is just the evidence that they did. Lots of folks on the internet that say they do/did things, that are just talking. You see it at the range the guys shows up with a ton of high speed gear and talks big. Then can't hit the broad side of the barn. No offense was meant to those that can do it. Besides I like to look at pretty pictures!

AJ

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I thought I wanted one of those, but could never find one. Maybe one will come into the lGS one of these days.

The action on my CG 63 was manufactured in 1902. The Swedes reuse there parts well.

Yes, the 6.5X55 MM is a fantastic round. It has been around for 127 years and the newer 6.5's don't do it any differently.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

From your OP and follow up I gather you want a rifle chambered for recreational target shooting, etc. Hunting not being the big issue, you will be better served with a rifle that combines a high degree of mechanical accuracy w/ a caliber that is proven to be capable of excellent performance at your stated distances.

With that in mind, look at off the shelf rifles. I would suggest a Remington 700 stainless steel rifle w/ heavy barrel chambered in 6.5 Creedmore. This offers the advantages of mechanical accuracy proven across years of benchrest competition by a multitude of marksmen using a multiplicity of calibers. The 6mm PPC would be outstanding, but it is not a common factory chambering nor does it portend excellent results at distances of six football fields. The 6.5 Creedmore is suggested as it allows you to use a broad variety of bullet styles/weight that offer proven performance at the range and of course out in the woods and fields.

Reasoning for the above suggestion is based on experience and reading. Once upon a time I started out w/ a nice Winchester Model 70 chambered in a fine little cartridge ... the .243 Winchester. With lighter bullets it was excellent on the range. Out in the fields, it was excellent on small/medium game out to maybe 300 yds. or so. It was not so useful for heavier game, i.e., hogs and deer. Hit right, deer dropped like they'd been pole axed. Muddy hogs were a different matter. Bullet weight topped out at about 108 gr. using a Speer round nosed bullet. That round nose did not offer much use at significant distance. The 6.5 CM avoids this problem. It uses the 6.5 bore, which has been proven effective ever since Mauser developed it for Sweden ... ( 6.5 x 55 MM Swedish Mauser ), combined with a casing that uses the common US standard .308 /.30-06 case head in a short-action receiver.

One further thought ... In the marksman ship triangle ... the rifle and cartridge are of course of great concern. The human factor is always variable. Under ideal conditions, you will be the deciding factor. Recoil will be a factor in your on target results. For a short run of shot strings ... maybe five groups of five shots ... it will not be a big issue. It will be a noticeable issue when (not "if") you begin to shoot 10 shot strings of say 10 groups firing at more than 100 yds. Of course this all reflects only my experience, etc. However regardless of whether I was firing a early elegant 1903 Springfield rifle striving for one MOA 10 shot groups or a hot shot be all to end all factory rifle fitted for breath taking on target results ... striving for sub-MOA groups ... recoil has a cumulative consequence on results. I have had a couple of different factory rifles w/ heavy barrels, etc., that using 52/55 grain bullets have produced five groups of five shots each that measured in the .300 - .400 MOA range. This did not happen in scalding hot summer weather. In the woods/fields ... it was very difficult to take these rifles and loads and produce groups of less than .75MOA firing from common field positions. HTH. JMHO. You know! Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

A nice 6.5X55 MM Swede is a great rifle. This an interesting article. https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...dishEspecially the part about W.M.D. Bell, W. D. M. Bell - Wikipedia.

I would look for a Swedish Model 96 or a 41 if you can find one. The local guys with Creedmores are using big scopes and I use irons, 99.9% of the time I shoot better groups.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have shot deer hunting at 300-400 yards, with 30-06 or .308, much more then that, you better be good; otherwise, you risk wounding an animal. As they say, your mileage may vary. Need a clear picture too and experience at that distance...

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Rather be outdoors