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  #1  
Old 09-12-2021, 05:55 PM
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Old 09-12-2021, 06:59 PM
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What's that arched bracket on the front for?
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Old 09-12-2021, 07:03 PM
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What's that arched bracket on the front for?
The bayonet attachment - Note the bayonet under the shotgun pictured..
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Old 09-12-2021, 07:04 PM
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That “arched bracket” is a heat shield but maybe I don't understand the technical term of your question… and it could be the bayonet attachment point.
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Old 09-12-2021, 07:36 PM
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Like my other avatar.
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Old 09-12-2021, 08:40 PM
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Nice gun, congrats.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:11 PM
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That “arched bracket” is a heat shield but maybe I don't understand the technical term of your question… and it could be the bayonet attachment point.
Correct!! I need to read more carefully!

The extension of the heat shield is attachment bracket.

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Old 09-12-2021, 10:15 PM
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I'm a fan of scatter guns with pokey things at the end.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:19 PM
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Yes you are! Super collection!
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:51 AM
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Yesterday a Winchester 97 trench gun sold in the Rock Island auction for a bid of $6,500.00.

World War II U.S. Winchester Model 97 Trench Shotgun | Rock Island Auction

Added to that would be a buyer's premium of at least 15% (depending on how the bid was submitted). So that would bring the price to a minimum of $7,475.00.

These are valuable weapons for sure! Congratulations on yours.

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Old 09-13-2021, 10:06 AM
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As I posted below in the Savage trench gun thread, I had a Winchester 97 in my platoon in VN in 1968-69. Only one I ever saw.
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Old 09-13-2021, 10:39 AM
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The 1897 was in production until September of 1957 but I don’t know when trench guns were manufactured. Probably during the 1940s.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:23 PM
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I think 1897 trench guns were used during WW1 also........................................M*
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:30 PM
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I think 1897 trench guns were used during WW1 also........................................M*
And Korea and probably early Viet Nam. Pictured is my F-I-L in Korea in about 1952 or so. Canfield has the same picture in his "Complete Guide To U.S. Military Combat Shotguns". Kind of neat is his picture is on page 155 and my Wife's birthday in in Jan. 1955.
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:58 PM
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What I was getting at was the ‘97 trench guns used in Korea or later were old WW1-2 guns and that they weren’t building ‘97 trenchguns in the 1950s even though Winchester was building field guns.The military wanted the more modern hammerless pumps.
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Old 09-13-2021, 05:05 PM
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If I remember correctly, the WWI 1897 trench guns were made with the standard receiver, while those made for WWII were made with the take-down receiver.
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:04 PM
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Life would have to be pretty...interesting...if you needed a shotgun with a bayonet.
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:08 PM
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Desperate times call for desperate measures.
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:15 PM
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During WWI the US trench guns were very effective against the Germans, to the extent that the Germans threatened to execute any Doughboy they captured with a trench gun in his possession. Allegedly, General Pershing sent a message to the German staff to the effect if that ever happened, he would immediately issue a "Take No Prisoners" order to his troops. And that was the end of that.

Last edited by DWalt; 09-13-2021 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 09-13-2021, 07:23 PM
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Life would have to be pretty...interesting...if you needed a shotgun with a bayonet.
World war 1 trench warfare was no doubt at least interesting especially with mustard gas. Good condition trench guns are sought after and bring a serious premium.

The M97 riot guns are very collectible also, but not as much as the trench guns. Short story, I was in a LGS in the mid 70's and an old man brought in a beautiful M97 riot gun. He wanted to sell it. I was the only other guy in the store. The dealer gave the old man 125.00 for it. The old man walked out. I said to the owner I want the gun. He said, I have to make a profit. I said fine, how much? He said 135.00. Done deal, I took it. Been in my safe since about 75-76. I think he said it belonged to a local police dept at some point in time.

Very nice pics guys. Thanks for sharing
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:33 PM
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The problem with shotguns in WW1 was because the paper shells would swell in the awful wet conditions of trenches. Pre-plastic back then.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:49 PM
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I believe the brass shotgun shells were first used in WWI to avoid problems with the paper shells.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:57 PM
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I believe the brass shotgun shells were first used in WWI to avoid problems with the paper shells.
Ask these guys. International Ammunition Association Web Forum

I think WW II.
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Old 09-13-2021, 11:30 PM
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Oh, man...... in 1981 I traded a guy a 357 Blackhawk for a 97 trenchgun with the 1917 bayonet and original leather sling. Sold it a year later for 300 and thought I'd really cut a fat hog.......��
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Old 09-13-2021, 11:57 PM
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Life would have to be pretty...interesting...if you needed a shotgun with a bayonet.
Several things interesting about the trench guns. They were used WW! to clear trench literally. The key was hold the trigger down and pump and fire over and over for 6/8? rounds. Let's just say it cleared the trench and di the job. American knowhow.

"With the Trench Gun gaining in popularity among the Americans, the Germans were dismayed by it. So much so that they began to protest its use in combat, issuing a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, claiming it was prohibited by the law of the war."


"Unsurprisingly the Americans rejected the protest causing the Germans to threaten to punish captured Americans in possession of a shotgun. The Americans decided to come with a retaliation threat but if any of the threads lead to punishment or counter-punishment is not known."
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Old 09-13-2021, 11:58 PM
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During WWI the US trench guns were very effective against the Germans, to the extent that the Germans threatened to execute any Doughboy they captured with a trench gun in his possession. Allegedly, General Pershing sent a message to the German staff to the effect if that ever happened, he would immediately issue a "Take No Prisoners" order to his troops. And that was the end of that.
Excellent I missed the post.. Thanks for sharing..
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:57 PM
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Oh, man...... in 1981 I traded a guy a 357 Blackhawk for a 97 trenchgun with the 1917 bayonet and original leather sling. Sold it a year later for 300 and thought I'd really cut a fat hog.......��
That should be considered a very unfortunate circumstance
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:29 PM
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I always wanted a M97 riot gun that was ether prison or police Dept. marked, still looking!!....Back in 1978 me and a buddy was at are LGS and he found one and bought it for $150.00..those were the days!...............................M*
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:21 PM
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I always wanted a M97 riot gun that was ether prison or police Dept. marked, still looking!!....Back in 1978 me and a buddy was at are LGS and he found one and bought it for $150.00..those were the days!...............................M*
Important to remember $150 equates about $800 today. My 870 police purchased two years ago priced at 740!!
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:50 PM
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Important to remember $150 equates about $800 today. My 870 police purchased two years ago priced at 740!!
That is accounting for inflation. A fine riot gun is worth way more than that. Got to be careful, there are a lot of cut down guns out there. Got to say CYL. on the bbl
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Old 09-14-2021, 05:24 PM
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In the mid 1970's I bought a 1897 Riot Gun at a small gun shop in Havelock, N.C. I paid $150 IIRC. Kept it for a while and used it as trade material for a handgun (something I would shoot). It was marked N.C. Prisons. Knowing what I know now, I should have kept it.
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Old 09-14-2021, 07:34 PM
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This one needs a new butt plate and was well used. Family heirloom, it was free. I took the 30" barrel off and put the 20" on it. Both have the same serial number. I don't collect firearms but somehow they find a home in my safe.

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Old 09-15-2021, 04:12 PM
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I believe the brass shotgun shells were first used in WWI to avoid problems with the paper shells.
Got an answer for you. The brass cased shotgun shells have been around a long time. https://discourse-cloud-file-uploads...cfd2762b2.jpeg The Ad is from 1882. Brass Shot gun Shells - #6 by ArmourerJim - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum
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Old 09-15-2021, 04:52 PM
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Brass shells have been in use for a very long time. Back in the early days of cartridge guns, almost of necessity hunters had to load their own shells using brass cases. You couldn't go to the store and buy any gauge, shot size, and load of shotshell you wanted. Many hunters had maybe a dozen brass cases that they would load with whatever shot size and weight they needed before going out hunting. It wasn't until around the turn of the century that factory-loaded shotshells became widely available, but later it got ridiculous - the ammunition companies were offering hundreds of different shotshell load combinations, and continued to do so until around WWII when most of the companies cut way back on their offerings. Something else which was fairly common in the early years was local custom shotshell loaders. Many cities had custom loading shops who would buy empty shells from Winchester, UMC, etc. and load them to meet specific local demand for the types of loads typically desired by hunters for whatever game was common to the area.

The US started WWI using paper cased 00 Buck shotshells, but that didn't work out so well in muddy trench warfare, so later on brass case shells were used. I believe brass case shells were also used in combat zones by the US military during WWII. Plastic cased shells came along in the early 1960s and they eliminated the military case swelling problem in time for Vietnam.

Before plastic shells appeared, duck hunters also had problems with swollen paper shells. Remington, and possibly others, offered a line of laquered paper shells to duck and goose hunters which were fairly waterproof and swelling-proof. Remington's were called "Arrow" and are instantly recognizable because they are so shiny.

Last edited by DWalt; 09-15-2021 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:32 PM
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Brass shells have been in use for a very long time. Back in the early days of cartridge guns, almost of necessity hunters had to load their own shells using brass cases. You couldn't go to the store and buy any gauge, shot size, and load of shotshell you wanted. Many hunters had maybe a dozen brass cases that they would load with whatever shot size and weight they needed before going out hunting. It wasn't until around the turn of the century that factory-loaded shotshells became widely available, but later it got ridiculous - the ammunition companies were offering hundreds of different shotshell load combinations, and continued to do so until around WWII when most of the companies cut way back on their offerings. Something else which was fairly common in the early years was local custom shotshell loaders. Many cities had custom loading shops who would buy empty shells from Winchester, UMC, etc. and load them to meet specific local demand for the types of loads typically desired by hunters for whatever game was common to the area.

The US started WWI using paper cased 00 Buck shotshells, but that didn't work out so well in muddy trench warfare, so later on brass case shells were used. I believe brass case shells were also used in combat zones by the US military during WWII. Plastic cased shells came along in the early 1960s and they eliminated the military case swelling problem in time for Vietnam.

Before plastic shells appeared, duck hunters also had problems with swollen paper shells. Remington, and possibly others, offered a line of laquered paper shells to duck and goose hunters which were fairly waterproof and swelling-proof. Remington's were called "Arrow" and are instantly recognizable because they are so shiny.
Saw some brass cased 12 ga. shells in Viet Nam. May have been leftover from WW II or Korea, but they were there. Not as many as plastic cased though.
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:53 PM
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I don't think there was a special issue of brass shotgun shells in WW 1 because we weren't over there all that long and shotguns weren't all that much in use. Lothais on the video Primer on Weapons of WW 1 brought out the difficulty of paper shells and so far as I know never mentioned brass.

I was in VN in 68-69 and can't remember seeing brass shells ever. I had a Stevens pump (I think it was) that was sawed off fore and aft as a last ditch weapon along with my M 16 but never used it and can't remember if the shells were paper or plastic but never swelled so I assume plastic.
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Old 09-15-2021, 06:34 PM
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You were Army. and got all the new stuff. We were Marines and got the leftovers, why do you think we always "borrowed" things?
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