Last year I was lucky enough to pick up a very nice Remington Rand from CMP…And while it’s a beautiful piece of WWII History, it didn’t quite scratch that itch.
Well, after getting carried away during a recent auction, my Colt was delivered yesterday. Matching frame and slide S/N, all correct markings, G.H.D. Stamp, Crossed Canons cartouche, ‘G’ stamp on top of the frame, every marking it should have is there, and NO rework stamp! All small parts parkerized and correct as they should be, even the almost perfect Coltwood grips with large rings and reinforcement bars. Also appears to have the original finish, with I’m guessing about 85% (Never good at those estimates) of the finish remaining. Would love to hear your opinion on the finish percentage. In fact the only flaw per Clawson and others I can find is that someone put in a stainless barrel at some point. The hunt is on for a ‘G’ stamped barrel, won’t be original, but will make it correct.
So proud of this beauty, can’t wait to shoot it, probably take it, the Remington and Winchester M1 Carbine for a WWII Day at the Range!
__________________
Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672
Last edited by NavySCPO; 09-10-2021 at 09:36 PM.
Reason: Grammar
Wow, that is special Chief. Very nice, I am sure you will give us a range report. Many of us would like to hold that and maybe shoot a couple rounds of hardball down range. 👍
Quite nice! I have a weakness for USGI 1911/1911A1 (among other things). It looks nice, and you have obviously been doing your research.
As for grading the % of finish, I would have to have it in my hands to hazard a guess, but I suspect you are fairly close. They are addicting to people like me.....
Very nice! At some point during war production Colt stopped putting serial numbers on slide underneath the firing pin stop maybe 1944? Great piece. I have a 1943 Ithaca but would love to get a 1943 Colt. I know a family that has one (a bring back from the war as the story goes) that has been passed down through the years and I asked for first refusal but likely they will never sell it.
That is a real nice one. I don't have my Scott Meadows book right handy, but I'm guessing maybe early 1943 per serial number. I used to collect WWI and WWII 1911's and 1911A1's. I've sold them all but a 1943 Ithaca.
The serial number under the firing pin stop was eliminated at serial number 1,140,000, and I noticed your trigger appear to be the smooth, uncheckered that was common to 1911A!'s until Henry Yawman - Foreman at Ithaca invented the stamped and checkered trigger in 1943 and the Ordnance Dept ordered all manufacturers to adopt it (saved time and money).
What is the mark on the lip of the floorplate on your magazine? Of course it shoul be C or CR (Colt Risdon) to be correct, but I've seldom seen a correct mag show up with a correct pistol unless by pure luck. If you need a C-R original mag just PM me.
The barrel you are looking for should be Box C one one leg, and P on the other, and may be marked 45 Auto, or may not, both were correct Colt barrels.
I was pretty harsh judging mine (estimated finish remaining at 70%) when I sold it to another die-hard Colt Collector in 2015 for $2,600.
Maybe a copy of my write-up will assist you with some details if you don't already have Scott Meadows book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1920 - 1945". I found it a tad better than Clawson because I could not afford a "real" Clawson, and the Meadows book had some later information that the last print of Clawson didn't have.
And..............yea..........they are a real treat to hold, admire, shoot.....and simply wonder........where's it been, who carried that beauty?
Congrats of your acquisition. I also have a thing for the old war horses. I carried a Remington Rand in Nam from time to time. I don't recall the one I carried at other duty stations. I now have a 1918 M1911 "Black Army", a very nice Remington Rand and a CPM Colt M1911A1. I display mine in football display cases by attaching a magazine to the floor of the case and then placing the pistol so the pistol is standing up (see picture).
You may want to visit the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and watch their auction site. Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!
They provide descriptions, pictures and finish ratings for the best of the best they are selling. My Colt M1911A1 rated 95% in accordance with their experts.
That is a real nice one. I don't have my Scott Meadows book right handy, but I'm guessing maybe early 1943 per serial number. I used to collect WWI and WWII 1911's and 1911A1's. I've sold them all but a 1943 Ithaca.
The serial number under the firing pin stop was eliminated at serial number 1,140,000, and I noticed your trigger appear to be the smooth, uncheckered that was common to 1911A!'s until Henry Yawman - Foreman at Ithaca invented the stamped and checkered trigger in 1943 and the Ordnance Dept ordered all manufacturers to adopt it (saved time and money).
What is the mark on the lip of the floorplate on your magazine? Of course it shoul be C or CR (Colt Risdon) to be correct, but I've seldom seen a correct mag show up with a correct pistol unless by pure luck. If you need a C-R original mag just PM me.
The barrel you are looking for should be Box C one one leg, and P on the other, and may be marked 45 Auto, or may not, both were correct Colt barrels.
I was pretty harsh judging mine (estimated finish remaining at 70%) when I sold it to another die-hard Colt Collector in 2015 for $2,600.
Maybe a copy of my write-up will assist you with some details if you don't already have Scott Meadows book "U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1920 - 1945". I found it a tad better than Clawson because I could not afford a "real" Clawson, and the Meadows book had some later information that the last print of Clawson didn't have.
And..............yea..........they are a real treat to hold, admire, shoot.....and simply wonder........where's it been, who carried that beauty?
Best of Luck with that treasure.
What are the odds???
A PM from Charlie and discussion about magazines made me think about my Remington Rand which I got from CMP last year. He mentioned that my ‘L’ stamped mag was correct for several others including Remington Rand, but not for Colt. So I opened the safe to look, honestly had no idea what was in the RR, I looked at it a while back, but I’ve slept since then.
Sure enough, CMP had sent it with a ‘C-R’ stamped magazine! It took some work on my part, but I was able to put the correct magazine in each gun, no applause necessary, I am mechanically gifted.
Sometimes stupid with a bad memory does pay off. Slow and fat, just like the 45 acp, a perfect match.
I have no idea of what the odds would be but whatever they are you just beat the daylights out of them.
According to Scott Meadows book, for WWII magazines for 1911A1's the three biggie main contractors were M.S. Little (lip stamp L), Risdon Manufacturing Co. (lip stamp R), and Scoville Co. (lip stamp S). For the Remington Rand pistols, General Shaver made magazines (lip stamp G)....last one of these I saw was pretty beat and the guy had the outrageous nerve to ask me for $250.....I passed..........wish I hadn't!
Colt let out a series of sub-contracts during the war to all 3 biggies, but they made mag tubes with bases attached and sent to Colt for final assembly. The lip stamps were C-L, C-R, and C-S.
So dang Danny......you win the whole enchilada, now ya got two correct guns...throw in your lot and go for a US&S, or an Ithaca, after all...it is ONLY money!!!
Great find and great snag.
I know you are tremendously mechanically inclined as you posted being able to insert the correct mag into the correct gun, but make sure you double check to be sure the mag lip is oriented towards the trigger guard before inserting otherwise FTF may occur.
__________________
Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570
Last edited by cmansguns; 09-11-2021 at 08:23 PM.
Reason: correct name in post
Great information. Always like the 1911A1 posts. Here is a picture of three WWII contract magazines that I have. The Little came with the 1943 Ithaca that I purchased in 2007. I wanted two additional WWII contract magazines and I found the Scoville and General Shaver on Gunbroker back then for $35 each!
Left to Right: Scoville, Little, General Shaver. Note the seam down the back of the General Shaver (It was a division of Remington Rand and produced around 1 million magazines most shipping in Remington Rand pistols).
I shoot my Ithaca from time to time and replaced the springs in the magazines. (I kept the original springs).
Great information. Always like the 1911A1 posts. Here is a picture of three WWII contract magazines that I have. The Little came with the 1943 Ithaca that I purchased in 2007. I wanted two additional WWII contract magazines and I found the Scoville and General Shaver on Gunbroker back then for $35 each!
Left to Right: Scoville, Little, General Shaver. Note the seam down the back of the General Shaver (It was a division of Remington Rand and produced around 1 million magazines most shipping in Remington Rand pistols).
I shoot my Ithaca from time to time and replaced the springs in the magazines. (I kept the original springs).
Wow! Wish those prices were still at that level…but the truth is you could make a small fortune selling those off.
One million produced, makes you wonder how many were dropped in the heat of battle, with little or no time to pocket for reloading.
Sweet Ithaca you have there too, did it do battle in Europe or the Pacific Theatre? Ride in a Shoulder Holster with a Fearless Pilot? Storm the beach with a Brave Marine or Soldier? Oh the stories it could tell, Enjoy!
Maybe long after we are gone, they’ll find a way to gather microscopic DNA to identify the Trooper that took it to war.
The one I got in the CMP lottery is a RR frame with a Colt slide but the finish looks good. It shoots great. For what it cost I was and am pleased.
Interesting how the parkerizing differs from one manufacturer to another, the CMP’s were very fairly priced in my opinion. But I remember on a lot of forums people griping about how much they were charging.
As for me, if they open it back up so we can have another, I’ll be right there in line (again).
Did OK with that one for sure. I've been seeing some pretty excellent (though not often quite as excellent as yours) field and rack grades coming off of this batch.
Last year I was lucky enough to pick up a very nice Remington Rand from CMP…And while it’s a beautiful piece of WWII History, it didn’t quite scratch that itch.
Well, after getting carried away during a recent auction, my Colt was delivered yesterday. Matching frame and slide S/N, all correct markings, G.H.D. Stamp, Crossed Canons cartouche, ‘G’ stamp on top of the frame, every marking it should have is there, and NO rework stamp! All small parts parkerized and correct as they should be, even the almost perfect Coltwood grips with large rings and reinforcement bars. Also appears to have the original finish, with I’m guessing about 85% (Never good at those estimates) of the finish remaining. Would love to hear your opinion on the finish percentage. In fact the only flaw per Clawson and others I can find is that someone put in a stainless barrel at some point. The hunt is on for a ‘G’ stamped barrel, won’t be original, but will make it correct.
So proud of this beauty, can’t wait to shoot it, probably take it, the Remington and Winchester M1 Carbine for a WWII Day at the Range!
Years ago, I sent away for a Colt letter on mine (a re-numbered Commercial gun), and 863181 was manufactured on 12/9/42 and shipped on 12/18.42, so yours can't be very far behind. It went to the Transportation Officer at Springfield Armory for the Commanding Officer, in a shipment of 1800 guns.
I see it's s/n 879586. If you are persistent and lucky you can find an Ithaca bearing that number.
Here is a page from Charles W. Clawson's monumental work:
*******************
Don't feel bad if you can't find that Ithaca.
I have Colt #944350.
According to Clawson, there is also a Remington Rand bearing that number. I haven't found it.
If you have a close look at mine, you will see it came off the line before the "crossed cannons" final inspection ordnance mark came into use. Clawson says that mark was adopted in October 1942 and appears on Colt pistols "after roughly serial number 830000." (See page 93.) Like other manufacturers, the serial numbers weren't all produced in order. Mine is earlier than the initial use of that stamp, even though it is a higher number than Clawson's "rough" cutoff.
Nice Colt! I have some General Shaver mags and a mint Flannery Bolt Co. Barrel, stuff that has accumulated over the years....along with some two tone mags, with and without the lanyard loops..
FWIW Checking the Springfield Research Data base does nut turn up any info on your ser no. But others in the range of yours appeared to be first issued in December 1943.
Here’s a copy of the surrounding numbers. A lot went to the OSS and US Navy.
877877 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
877954 121543 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
877984 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878014 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878016 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878022 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878059 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878164 061244 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878164 040345 OSS CASERTA
878248 010947 6TH ARMY (RECOVERED)
878259 45 OSS CBI
878299 022546 9TH SERVICE CMD
878707 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878772 090444 USS MISSION BAY
878870 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878922 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
879169 45 OSS CBI
879277 090444 USS MISSION BAY
880489 062345 FT G G MEADE
I see it's s/n 879586. If you are persistent and lucky you can find an Ithaca bearing that number.
Here is a page from Charles W. Clawson's monumental work:
I have Colt #944350.
According to Clawson, there is also a Remington Rand bearing that number. I haven't found it.
If you have a close look at mine, you will see it came off the line before the "crossed cannons" final inspection ordnance mark came into use. Clawson says that mark was adopted in October 1942 and appears on Colt pistols "after roughly serial number 830000." (See page 93.) Like other manufacturers, the serial numbers weren't all produced in order. Mine is earlier than the initial use of that stamp, even though it is a higher number than Clawson's "rough" cutoff.
Yours is a very nice find!
Curly
Thanks Curly, that one of yours is a beauty, looks in much better shape than mine. To me they are all special in their own way. And you almost have to be a History Professor to discern all the markings that were produced.
I was looking closer at mine, and noticed the inside of the firing pin retainer, you can clearly see how long it’s been on there, easy to read the backwards SN.
Another odd marking is on my Remington Rand, it has an ‘MB’ stamp on the right rear slide, just above the very light crossed canons on the frame. I’ve read on forums this meant the slide was magnafluxed, but never found that in print in any book I’ve seen or heard of. And I believe when the barrels were magnafluxed, they were stamped ‘M’, but not MB. As far as I can tell, MB is not a rework stamp either, odd.
I’ve requested a letter from Colt, but that’s probably a few months out. So far I’ve been told…
It shipped June 16, 1942 to Springfield Armory.
It shipped between February 3-18, 1943 to Springfield Armory.
To be clear, a sincere ‘Thank You’ to all who have provided any additional information, ship dates or otherwise, you can never have too much. Yet another with a very close SN shipped in December 42, so the February 43 date sounds like it’s close to the truth, but I’ll just have to wait on Colt to be sure. Doesn’t really matter I guess, like mine most went to Springfield, and the trail ends there.
I did notice it was in the group of SN’s that Colt duplicated, like yours? What the heck are the odds of finding one of those? Of course if the owner found out you had the other one, well, as they say, ‘The Price of Poker just went up’. 🥴
BTW - This morning I sent a MO for $405 to a gentleman in Louisiana for a ‘Colt 45 Auto, and G Stamp’ barrel… Happy Guy when I get that!
__________________
Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672
Last edited by NavySCPO; 09-13-2021 at 05:53 PM.
Reason: Add Note
FWIW Checking the Springfield Research Data base does nut turn up any info on your ser no. But others in the range of yours appeared to be first issued in December 1943.
Here’s a copy of the surrounding numbers. A lot went to the OSS and US Navy.
877877 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
877954 121543 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
877984 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878014 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878016 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878022 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878059 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878164 061244 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878164 040345 OSS CASERTA
878248 010947 6TH ARMY (RECOVERED)
878259 45 OSS CBI
878299 022546 9TH SERVICE CMD
878707 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878772 090444 USS MISSION BAY
878870 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
878922 120643 OSS SSO WASHINGTON
879169 45 OSS CBI
879277 090444 USS MISSION BAY
880489 062345 FT G G MEADE
Thank you Sir! So did Springfield Armory send them on to the OSS and US Navy ‘after’ acceptance at Springfield?
The Springfield Research Svs (SRS) is a listing of the whereabouts of pistols, rifles and other small arms that came to the attention of Springfield Armory. The SRS records for WW1 pistols is much more complete than WW2 and later.
The SRS records reflect in some cases shipping to their initial destination ie. Army base or unit, USAAF bases, then Navy yards ships and the USMC.
I own 882866 which shows no record but for 881933 shows a record of Colt shipping to Springfield.
SRS records for this and later years are sketchy at best for individual small arms but they do give a fairly good estimate on shipping.
A letter from Colt Archives will answer where they sent it and then the trail goes cold.
Some pursue the records of the national archives which is something I’ve never done.
Some pursue the records of the national archives which is something I’ve never done.
I put in a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with the Department of the Army for the history of the 1911A1 .45 automatic pistol that I received from CMP. It was also made in 1943. My request was acted on with no charge. The Army was only able to find records dating back to 1995 but that was more than what I had before.
Edit: Should have looked it up instead of trusting my memory. The first record reported was from 1992 instead of 1995.
Last edited by Golddollar; 09-14-2021 at 12:50 PM.
I’ve got to ask who you addressed the FOIA to, or if you specifically asked for Army records or for all gov’t records. Eg: I have a pistol known to having come from the Marine Corps but started out being issued to the Navy.
Also how long did the FOIA request take?
Thanks for your input.
/Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddollar
I put in a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with the Department of the Army for the history of the 1911A1 .45 automatic pistol that I received from CMP. It was also made in 1943. My request was acted on with no charge. The Army was only able to find records dating back to 1995 but that was more than what I had before.
I’ve got to ask who you addressed the FOIA to, or if you specifically asked for Army records or for all gov’t records. Eg: I have a pistol known to having come from the Marine Corps but started out being issued to the Navy.
Also how long did the FOIA request take?
Thanks for your input.
/Ken
US National Archives might have records from manufacturers from WWll. When I got my 1943 Ithaca I contacted Ithaca but their records from war years have been lost over the years. I had a friend who worked for archives but is now retired. He could research and find all sorts of things. He was able to find records from Civil War showing a muster list of Confederate POWs released in June 1865 from Point Lookout, Maryland and my great, great grandfather’s name was listed.
US National Archives might have records from manufacturers from WWll. When I got my 1943 Ithaca I contacted Ithaca but their records from war years have been lost over the years. I had a friend who worked for archives but is now retired. He could research and find all sorts of things. He was able to find records from Civil War showing a muster list of Confederate POWs released in June 1865 from Point Lookout, Maryland and my great, great grandfather’s name was listed.
I’ve got to ask who you addressed the FOIA to, or if you specifically asked for Army records or for all gov’t records. Eg: I have a pistol known to having come from the Marine Corps but started out being issued to the Navy.
Also how long did the FOIA request take?
Thanks for your input.
/Ken
I placed my FOIA request with the Department of the Army because the Civilian Marksmanship Program started out with the U. S Army. It was the best starting point I could think of. Maybe I will make a request with the US Archives office for a more comprehensive search.
From beginning to end the whole process took about 4 months. It took 3 months to get an acknowledgment but after that things moved pretty quickly.
I placed my FOIA request with the Department of the Army because the Civilian Marksmanship Program started out with the U. S Army. It was the best starting point I could think of. Maybe I will make a request with the US Archives office for a more comprehensive search.
From beginning to end the whole process took about 4 months. It took 3 months to get an acknowledgment but after that things moved pretty quickly.
Good luck.
FWIW I learned about CMP from a member of this forum who worked for Anniston Arsenal. He said they got guns from all branches and sent them on to CMP.
Their sales and particularly the auctions contained a lot of USMC Arsenal marked guns which you never saw prior to CMPs entry into the arena.
Thanks for the input. Perhaps I’ll try the Archives out.
1943 Colt M1911A1 - Got One, Finally!
Either Jan 43 or maybe late Dec 42?
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