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  #1  
Old 03-15-2009, 01:00 PM
rchall rchall is offline
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I know of a Winchester Model 12 shotgun for sale. It is a 16 gauge, 26 inch barrel, modified choke, and a
solid rib. It is nickel steel, but I'm not sure if it has the longer 2 3/4" or older 2 9/16" chamber. Does
the short chamber present problems when shooting and ejecting the modern plastic shotgun shells? If so,
what needs to be done to eliminate these problems? Thanks alot!
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:00 PM
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I know of a Winchester Model 12 shotgun for sale. It is a 16 gauge, 26 inch barrel, modified choke, and a
solid rib. It is nickel steel, but I'm not sure if it has the longer 2 3/4" or older 2 9/16" chamber. Does
the short chamber present problems when shooting and ejecting the modern plastic shotgun shells? If so,
what needs to be done to eliminate these problems? Thanks alot!
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  #3  
Old 03-15-2009, 02:31 PM
zercool zercool is offline
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Yes, it will have issues. It will go bang, but probably won't pattern well - not sure if that will overpressure the chamber or not.

To eliminate it, you need to take the gun to a qualified shotgunsmith, have them ream the chamber to the desired depth, and possibly re-work the forcing cone. Probably not terribly expensive, but you have to decide if it's worth it or not.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:46 PM
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If the model 12 is in good shape it surely would be worth it.
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  #5  
Old 03-15-2009, 02:58 PM
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Winchester lengthened the 12 and 16 gauge chambers in 1926 from 2 9/16" in 16 gauge and from 2 5/8" in 12 gauge all to 2 3/4".

Take the serial number down to be able to reference exactly the date it was manufactured. A list of serial numbers is in the back of the Blue Book of Gun Values.

If it is pre-1926, you may have the chamber lengthened as a first choice, or stick to firing the 2 1/2" shells available from Fiocchi and other sources, or load your own from those hulls or use the solid brass hulls from Magtech or Rocky Mountain Cases.

*Where's my blue book?*
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  #6  
Old 03-15-2009, 04:39 PM
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I believe the serial number was somewhere in the 400,000's, but not sure what the exact number was. I think it
maybe needed taken up a notch or two on the adjustment ring as it felt slightly loose when I twisted it.
The barrel looked good inside. Bluing is probably in the 80% range and wood was nice with no cracks or looseness
and had the original buttplate. He's asking $895, but will come down to sell. I told him I'd let him know this
week. Any thoughts??
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  #7  
Old 03-15-2009, 05:09 PM
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I Learn something new every day! I have my Dads 12 ga Mod 12, ser. # 291XXX, 1922, that I've been shooting since the late 50's, hunting , trap etc. just looked and the #d nickel steel bbl is not ctg length marked. Always shot modern 2 3/4 shells. Maybe it was buzzed early on? 2 3/4 shells drop right in.
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  #8  
Old 03-15-2009, 05:25 PM
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Rimfired,

You may want to go have it checked out...

I was taught a quick trick to see if the chamber was long enough, but it still should be checked!

Use a 3" shell (DON'T SHOOT IT), and if it does not go in, it is definitely a short chamber and stop using it. If it goes in and the gun is pre-1926, there is a good chance that the chamber has been reamed. However, take it to a gunsmith or order some chamber gauges from Brownell's for verification.

Unfortunately, many shotguns from that era have been shot with 2 3/4" loads (in both 12 and 16 gauge) that have short chambers, not a good or safe practice, but very few problems have been reported. Good design, materials and built in safety margins help a lot. (Even back then!)
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  #9  
Old 03-15-2009, 05:39 PM
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You can't judge chamber length based on whether a gun will accept a particular length loaded shell. The nominal chamber length is based on the fired hull length. Modern shells are plastic (not paper) and use a folded crimp, rather than an over shot wad and a roll crimp. Modern shells often chamber in a short chamber gun, but it's not safe to shoot them (you‘re probably shooting proof loads). The chamber needs to be long enough to a have the plastic crimp open short of the forcing cone and older guns usually had short forcing cones and tight bore diameters too If the chamber length isn’t marked on the gun (barrel or water table), get a gauge and measure it.

Remember Barry Fain.

Ps. It sounds too expensive for the condition, regardless. I'd keep looking.
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  #10  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:18 PM
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Findout the exact number and plug it into this site. 470000 was in 1927 and 400000 in 1925. Also check right above where the shell goes in it should say.http://oldguns.net/sn_php/winmods.htm
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  #11  
Old 03-15-2009, 09:32 PM
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Twelve gauge was never offered with the short chamber; they were always 2 3/4 inch, or 3-inch in the case of Heavy Duck models. Many of the earlier short-chambered 16 gauges were lengthened by the factory or private gunsmiths. (This information is from Madis' book on the Model 12.)

That's a sweet gun in that gauge with the solid rib, and if you've paid any attention to prices for Model 12s in that gauge and barrel configuration, the price doesn't sound too bad. It may be worthwhile getting a chamber gauge from Brownells; mine has come in handy.
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  #12  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:53 PM
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I agree with Chad that it is a bit high for that condition, but have to disagree with him that it is unsafe to shoot 2 3/4" shells out of a 2 9/16" chambered gun. Generally, the only issues you will have in doing this are failures to eject as the longer, fired shell will hang up on the ejection port. I have a 1916 production 16 ga. M12 that has not had the ejection port opened up, but it runs Remington 16 ga. almost 100%; 2 9/16" shells are also available and not terribly difficult to find, although your local Wal-Mart won't have them.
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  #13  
Old 03-17-2009, 08:04 PM
rchall rchall is offline
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Where can you find 2 9/16" 16 gauge shells? I want to use the gun for rabbit and grouse hunting. It is very
light and points almost effortlessly. I always wanted one of these old Model 12's for these reasons. Also,
thanks to everyone who responded to this!
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  #14  
Old 03-17-2009, 08:25 PM
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http://firearmservice.com/shop...ore/html/page19.html

http://www.ballisticproducts.c...roducts.asp?dept=188
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  #15  
Old 03-18-2009, 01:18 PM
rchall rchall is offline
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Thanks for those sites, Chad! That really helps alot. Will look into them IF I buy this gun. More I
think about it that is pretty steep, but, boy, that's the only one of those I have seen in that
configuration. Will post about it if it happens. Thanks again!
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  #16  
Old 03-20-2009, 06:09 PM
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You may also want to check out Westly Richards, [URL=http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/ammo_shot.html] I have used their 12 ga 2-1/2" shells in a couple of older doubles with short chambers and their 16 ga in a Winchester Model 12 with a short chamber and had excellent results. Plus the price is better than the two links listed above. On the other hand maybe the chamber has been lengthened and the ejection port opened up on the one you are looking at. The last Model 12 16 ga. I bought (a couple of years ago) was a Nickel Steel field model that was in about 85-90% condition. Chamber had already been reworked according to my gauge and a fired 16 gauge 2-3/4" plastic hull manually loaded into chamber ejected without a problem because the ejection port had been opened up. Who ever did te conversion work did a great job. Factory? I don't know. The last time I had a chamber lengthened and ejection port opened up (about five years ago) it cost me about $75.00 on a Remmy 870 WM going from 2-3/4 to 3" including the required new ejector I had to install.

David
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  #17  
Old 03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
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It's not my intention to hijack this thread, but since you are on the topic of Model 12s:
I have a Mod 12, 12 ga. from 1928. It seems the barrel has been chopped years ago and a variable choke has been added.
I also have a 20" military barrel with cartouch I'd love to put on this. The only problem is, the place that was recommended to me to swap barrels wants around $275 to start! Anyone know of a reliable smith that knows mod 12s that will do it for less?
I wouldn't mind paying $150...
Thanks - Brian
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  #18  
Old 03-30-2009, 04:45 PM
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Check out D&D gunsmiths in Troy. Dan is insane, but other than that he's OK and they can do some really nice work. He did a barrel swap on a Winchester 42 Skeet gun for a friend of mine and it came out great. Show him the gun and barrel and see what he says. I assume you're doing this to make yourself a riot Gun.
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2009, 07:54 AM
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s&wchad, would you please email me? I had some questions about your recommendation I don't want to post publicly.
-Brian
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