The above ammo is pretty hot 9mm stuff and I wondered about using it on a limited basis in my P365.
I contacted Sig and they said OK on a limited basis but to realize as with any other gun, constant use would cause more wear on the gun parts.
Has any one shot it in a P365?

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I believe this is 9 mm NATO spec FMJ ammo, loaded to between SAAMI and + P pressure. If you want a practice load any FMJ round will suffice, if you can find it. Agree it should probably be used sparingly as Sig suggests.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Winchester 1152 runs about 1000 psi more than +P.

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+P+ ?
I am really surprised to learn that Winchester loads ammo above the SAAMI +P spec due to liability. I can just see someone putting it in their Cobra or Jiminez and having it handgrenade and take off a few fingers.

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It's milspec ammo for the Sig 320 fitted with a heavier recoil spring. Caveat Emptor applies.

M1152 & M1153: The Army’s New 9 mm Luger Loads | An Official Journal Of The NRA

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Is there a disclaimer on the box to only use it in the Sig 320 or something? I see that Lucky Gunner shows a sale listing for the M1152 (out of stock though - of course).
If they are selling it to the civilian market and some joker blows up their pot-metal piece of junk with it they are going to have a losing lawsuit on their hands. Even if they put "caveat emptor" disclaimers on the box - because they exceeded industry standard specs.

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I don't know what to tell you. I have a box of that Mitchell's Mausers full house 198gr stuff in 7.92x57 and there is no warning saying don't use it in a GeW 88 without an "S" mark. Maybe ammo makers have especially good lawyers.

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LOL after seeing a million posts in reloading forums about how much the data publishers have "down-loaded" the ammo recipes, that just kind of seems contradictory.

Unless the old time reloaders are right and the current standards are so conservative that it is actually safe to exceed their recommendations - even with cheap guns.
I mean, if major manufacturers do it without worrying about the liability, maybe they are right...?

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Is there evidence that this ammo in question is going to blow up guns? FWIW a few boxes of ammo is worth more than a Jimenez 9mm.

Nope. No "evidence" - yet.
But knowing what 1000psi over the SAAMI +P specs means tells me that I wouldn't want to shoot it in a cheap gun.
Would you?

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I wouldn’t be afraid to shoot it in any of the dozen 9mm’s I own. That includes a P365.

Ahhh, but do you own any Jiminez, or any of cheap the other pot metal pistols?
Because those are the guns I have specifically and repeatedly referred to.

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Nope. Extended shooting of any 9mm ammo is a questionable prospect with those gun. It’s not necessarily unsafe but the guns will batter themselves and wear out quickly.

My guess is that it will shoot low and be frustrating.

OK then, we're not talking about the same thing, because I was talking about overpressure ammo in cheap guns. Quality guns are a completely different topic altogether.

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Do you have ANY evidence to support your assertion that the ammo is going to blow up guns?

I think all production guns must pass proof loads that are well above any production ammo. According to BP most all handguns have about a 100% safety margin before blow up. So, beat up, probably, blow up, no.

Do you have ANY knowledge of reloading or ammo specs?

Here's a little tutorial.

SAAMI specs define the SAFE pressure specifications for ammo.
They define the maximum safe pressure level for STANDARD ammunition, and in the case of 9mm (and a few other calibers) they also define the maximum safe pressure for +P (higher than standard pressure) ammo. These MAXIMUM pressure levels are what the gun manufacturers design their products to handle.

Since SAAMI specs define what pressure levels are safe, exceeding SAAMI pressure specifications is by definition UNSAFE.

That isn't my opinion, that is the industry standard.

If this ammo exceeds the SAAMI standard pressure for 9mm +P ammunition (which the entire industry defines as the maximum safe pressure for any 9mm ammo or firearm), as has been stated, it is by definition loaded to UNSAFE pressure levels. Just to be clear, excessive pressure is what causes guns to blow up. Whether it is from a bore obstruction or ammo that is loaded to excessive pressure levels.

Can I or anyone else say for certain that someone's gun is going to blow up using this ammo? No. Because I can't even say for sure that some dolt is going to try shooting it through some piece of pot metal junk. However, given the frequency of new shooters asking "can my gun handle +P ammo around here, the odds are pretty high that one of them will try this stuff in their pot metal Saturday Night Special.

But the fact is that I never said it will blow up on someone.

What I said is that IF that happens the manufacturer is in for a big lawsuit. Because they exceeded the industry standards for SAFE ammo.

Clear now?

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BP? Not sure what BP is in this context. You are probably right, MOST manufacturers will PROBABLY exceed the proof spec. But that certainly doesn't guarantee that they all will.

For 9mm SAMMI specs are 35,000 PSI for +P and the proof pressure is only 42,000 PSI. So proof pressure for 9mm firearms is only 20% above the maximum pressure standard for 9mm +P ammo.

Quality gun manufacturers will adhere to the proof pressure standards and even exceed them. Manufacturers of cheap pot metal guns like the one's I've been referring to? Maybe. Maybe not. If they do I'd be willing to bet a 100 dollar bill that some of them barely do. And that is for their NEW guns. One that has already experienced metal fatigue from being shot a bunch, and/or possibly battered/abused with +P ammo? Likely not so much.

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BP stands for Brian Pearce who is almost certainly the best gun writer yet to come along. He writes for Handloader and Rifle magazine and if you have read any of his articles you will realize that we are lucky to have him. If there has ever been any 9mm auto that has actually blown up with any factory ammo I would like to see real examples. And as for “pot metal” handguns produced today how many do you know of that have pot metal barrels?

OK, well if Brian Pearce says MOST guns are tested to twice SAAMI max safe pressure I'll take his word for it. But then again that still doesn't change my point because MOST is not ALL, is it?

I can't show you any current examples of pot metal barrels, but I have read about and seen pictures of some older examples. And those older cheap guns are the one's I'd be most concerned about. They are still around. Lots of them. If a manufacturer is using pot metal for the frame or slide, it is certainly not out of the question that they are using lower grade steel for the steel parts as well. Again, maybe not all or even most, but certainly some.

Like I said, SAMMI specs exist for a reason. Handloaders (or at least ones with any sense) don't exceed those specs for a reason. If exceeding them were safe, they would be setting them higher. Some people are of the opinion that it is safe to exceed them. I am not of that opinion and I have the SAAMI industry standards on my side.

Feel free to exceed safe maximums all you like. Personally, I see it as extremely risky and foolish. Might not blow up on the first round, or even on the 100th round. But then again it just might. Feel free to roll those dice if you like. I'm not. I seldom load my ammo even TO the max, much less above the max. If I need more oomph, I choose a bigger caliber.

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BC38 let’s see ONE example of ANY semi auto pistol that has actually been blown up by ANY production ammo in the correct caliber. Just one 👻

I will happily volunteer to shoot all of that NATO ammo in my $35 Hi Point. I bet it will handle it with aplomb!

Attached Images

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Google "Glock Kaboom" for a few hundred examples.
Case ruptures with factory ammo in Glocks is a known "thing". More common in 40 S&W than 9MM, but it DOES happen with 9mm.

If the case of a STANDARD pressure factory round can rupture in a Glock, how much easier would it be for one that is OVER the maximum +P pressure spec to rupture? Particularly in a cheap, beat up old gun?

FWIW, I had a case blow out in my Ruger LC9. It didn't rupture the barrel, but it sent the extractor into low earth orbit somewhere. No injuries, but there easily could have been.

I read a thread recently where the frame on a polymer 9mm failed firing factory ammo. Can't recall if it was this board or another one.

Here is one where Winchester White Box blew up a CZ
CZ P07 Goes Ultra Kaboom With WWB Ammo -The Firearm Blog

Military Surplus ammo is factory ammo, right? Here's a Keltec blown up with MilSurp 9mm
KABOOM REPORTS: Egyptian Surplus In A Kel-Tec Edition -The Firearm Blog

Here is a Ruger LCR blown up using 38 +P - which it is even supposed to be rated for.
Ruger LCR Blows Up - The Truth About Guns

Need more examples? I can keep Googling...

Now, turn about is fair play. Can you show me ONE manufacturer that says it is OK to shoot ammo that exceeds SAAMI pressure specs? I can show you examples of pretty much every one that says NOT to.

Do you handload ammo ABOVE the recommended pressures? Load them up with more than the recommended maximum powder charges? If not, why not since you are obviously arguing that it is safe to do so? Or are you just arguing to be arguing?

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Shoot, buy me a jennings or whatever and some NATO ammo and I'll shoot it.

The commercial packaging clearly states that they are loaded at 10-15% higher pressures than the industry standard, states they are only to be used in modern 9mm firearms in good condition (which will handle this). The lorcins and whatnot generally don't fail in the "blowing up" manner without double loads or similar, and while I'm sure it will accelerate the decline of these fine specimens, will not blow them up.

LOL, color me surprised.

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When I blow myself up using a factory winchester loading I've still not seen in stores I'll really regret not being able to type a response saying that yes, you were correct and the manufacturer of the firearm (who the OP called) was wrong, and that Winchester was wrong to be the latest to introduce an overpressure loading.

It'll be fine. I don't really have a need for it and I doubt it'll be a common loading, and I'd imagine those buying the lorcrins aren't exactly going to be seeking this out. Winchester knows what they're doing, and if they're putting it out I'm not exactly worried.

As I said (repeatedly) I'm not talking about it damaging his SIG or quality guns. Though that isn't outside the realm of possibility, it is certainly less likely. Just curious, why you think the owner of a Lorcin or Jiminez wouldn't want the hottest ammo they could get for their guns?

The fact that they don't know enough to realize the gun is junk doesn't mean they aren't going to go for the "high performance" advertising of this or any other ammo. We see "is my gun safe to shoot +P" threads on here weekly - mostly from new gun owners. If the gun they happened to inherit was a piece of junk, they still may want +P (or in this case +P+) ammo.

Anyway, wanna bet on whether they get sued? I'm betting on less than a year.
Any takers?

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Do you have any knowledge about ammo or reloading? Those rounds were not 10% over pressure!

Why don't you give Winchester a call and let them know how big of a mistake they are making. I'm sure you know more then them... Let us know how that call goes.

Why yes, I do. And you are correct - according to the info I linked (did you actually read them?) they were STANDARD pressure - not even +P, much less higher than +P.

With no facts, snark is all ya' got, huh?

As I said before, SAMMI, the powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, loading manuals, and all the gun manufacturers agree with my position that loading above SAMMI specs is dangerous. Who you got on your side of the argument?

I've got a Benjamin that says there will be stories of blown up guns and lawsuits - or they'll be loading to SAMMI pressure specs in a year or less. Wanna take me up on it? We've got plenty of witnesses here.

I'll put my money where my mouth is - how about you?

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The ammo has already been on the market for over a year.

In that case it should be a pretty safe bet for you to take.

Of course pretty much all ammo has been nearly unobtanium for a year.

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9mm has been easy to obtain for the last year. The prices have been high because demand skyrocketed. I’ve seen that specific ammo in gun stores and numerous online sellers. The bet is a no brainer.

So then you're taking me up on it?

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You realize this is common 9mm ammo currently available from numerous online vendors, right?

I can read what you've posted and I stand by my offered bet.

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I’ll do it.

OK, one year from now, if the ammo is still on the market and has not been modified to lower pressure limits, and there have been no lawsuits brought against the manufacturer related to this ammo, you win.
If all of the above conditions aren't met, I win.
Shake on it.

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ancient-one, Your question certainly elicited some interesting responses, didn't it. I'd just go by what SIG told you. I don't have a P365, or any of the "pot metal" guns mentioned to test this ammo in. FWIW though, my notes indicate that I first purchased M1152 ammo in March of 2020. Since then I have tested the M1152 in some of my pistols, revolvers and a carbine for any alarming excess pressure signs, reliability and velocity. I've not encountered any issues, other than one particular magazine did not feed the M1152 reliably.

The M1152 is definitely warmer than common 9mm ammunition of the same bullet weight. Again, referring to my notes, I've tested the M1152 in at least 9 different guns, with no issues other that one magazine's reluctance to feed it properly.

Anyway, I realize this is just one anecdotal report, with no statistical significance, but just sharing one M1152 user's experience with this ammo.

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I think I was the first member to post here about Winchester M1152 ammo with a thread I started in February, 2020. I was skeptical about the claimed ballistics, but the NRA tested it in a SIG M17 and got 1326 ft/sec at a reported pressure of 39,700 psi. I bought 1000 rounds in March, 2020. for $219, which was way above the $169 I had been paying for other 9 mm ammo, including Winchester NATO. Also, the poster above, Rock185, reported similar velocities in the same thread. I've fired the M1152 ammo in 4 different SIG's - an M18, an MK25, an X5, and a P938. The round has noticeably more recoil and muzzle blast, but performs perfectly for me. I did not like the way it felt in the small P938 and only fired 1 magazine. I mostly fire my standard pressure handloads these days and still have about 200 M1152 rounds left.

SAAMI standards for 9 mm are 35,000 psi and 38,500 psi for the +P version, so the M1152 round is only a little over 3% above the SAAMI +P standard. I feel perfectly safe shooting it in my handguns. I would not shoot any ammo at any pressure through a "pot metal" handgun.

Also, SAAMI standards for proof loads are 130-140% of the +P standard, or 52,000 to 55,000 psi, way above the M1152 load. This is from the current SAAMI website.

I have chronographed a LOT of 9mm ammo in the last thirty years or so. Most of it has been 115 or 124 gr FMJ. Way too many details to go into here but some brands of standard pressure 115 gr, which probably is the most popular, are simply watered down junk and some are not. Remington 115 FMJ chronographes 1059 FPS out of my BHP and will not cycle the action of it or some other guns I own. Another brand that I won’t name chronos 1225-1268 FPS out of the same gun and is sold as std pressure. I believe them because they also sell +P ammo. The point here is that it is hard to believe that any rational person can actually believe that 115 FMJ that chronos a little over 1300 FPS will actually blow up current production guns.

From Guns.com

Winchester advises to only use the M1152 in modern 9mm firearms in good condition as they run a pressure that is 10 to 15 percent higher than standard industry pressure for 9mm Luger.

In testing for reliability, we ran the M1152 through an array of pistols including a Sig P320, Sig P229, Beretta 92, Diamondback DB9 G4, Glock G19X, and S&W M&P M2.0. The number of jam sammiches observed across 290 rounds and six very different 9mm handguns= zero. Similarly, no squibs or hangfires were encountered, which is always a good thing.

Would this variety of 9mm Luger ammunition be safe for use in an early WWII vintage Luger?

I have two WWII Lugers and I only shoot ammo in them that I know from chronographing to be mild. The reason is that they will cycle reliably with fairly low velocity 115 gr ammo that will not cycle other guns so I assume that their recoil springs have weakened with age People say Lugers need hot ammo to cycle reliably. Maybe if in new condition but mine aren’t new and I don’t want to break them.

A properly sprung Luger was designed originally for warm ammunition.
The Walther P-38 prefers weaker loads or the pistol will wear quickly. The Germans did not expect a P-38 to last more than a few thousand rounds without a major rebuild.

Given the age of these war trophys and their current value, I would not use +P and certainly not +P+ ammo. The M1152 round is a hot one, it's velocity is very similar to the old Federal 9BPLE, which was a 115 grain JHP at +P+ pressure.

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I was hoping the ammo would drop to $50 for a box and then you could just have 2 boxes mailed to me.

Site Maintenance

Here's a link to 100 rounds for $39.95. 2 boxes of those would do just fine.

100 Round Box - 9mm Luger 115 Grain Flat Nose FMJ Ball Winchester M1152 Active Duty Ammo - WIN9MHSC | SGAmmo.com

MORE candy, please.

GI pistols love NATO ammo.

Is it just me? I think I'd take the one bit of advice that SIG had to give me on the matter, and ignore the garbled clutter of ill-informed stuff you get from asking in a forum.

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