I posted this on another board. Handgun designs that have widespread recognition and are sought after but that manufacturers and later designers recognized had serious design flaws and manufacturing complications and have long since been dropped from production.Three that come to mind are the Luger, the Broomhandle Mauser, the Mauser M1910/34-I'll add the Mauser HsC. All were First Generation designs that were quite advanced for their day but now seem quite archaic and have been superseded by better designs. The Luger with its toggle lock that nobody else has adopted. The Broomhandle with its awkward handling. (Yes, I know, Winston used one to great effect-"I fired 10 shots-all necessary.")I have a Mauser M1910, I find its disassembly a little tricky, the ergonomics poor, some of its design features-inserting a loaded magazine chambers a round-not to my liking, I recall some board members found the HsC to be something of a Rube Goldberg design.
One thing about the JMB designs is that they have what I call "modular" construction, they are fairly easy to strip for cleaning and repair, parts that are subject to wear and breakage-barrels, firing pins, springs e.g.-are easy to remove and replace.

Would it qualify to throw the HK P7 series in here? Loved at a staggering rate, never copied by anyone and dumped forever ago by HK. These guns raise in price/value every 15 minutes. Even ones with wear command crazy prices and the rare variants are just nutbar in price and they absolutely SELL at the crazy prices.

Maybe nobody would say the design is a "dead end" but also quite complicated... nobody has had any inkling to try and copy them.

Well, this will bring out the hate. The Browning Hi Power springs to mind. The tang is too small to keep the flesh of "beefy" shooters out of the works, and I find the idea of transferring the trigger movement via a see-saw in the slide bizarre to say the least.

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Release the Kraken

How about the Ruger .256 mag. Hawkeye? A single shot handgun based on the single action frame with a swivel out breach. It provided the hunting handgunners a platform for high intensity rounds, but who preferred the SA style to something like a TC Contender. It never caught on..

Larry

The Dardick

This might be a little drift regarding the P7 design but I recently snagged a Vektor CP1 (actually here in the classified section) that blatantly copies the HK P7. The under the barrel piston is identical and the take down substitutes pressing in on the trigger guard mounted safety rather than the button at the rear of the slide.

From what I read about the Vektor company, their service pistol was essentially a copy of the Beretta 92, even down to using Beretta magazines.

So, did Vektor just ignore patents? Were their sales not enough to justify trying for legal remedy of their design theft, or what?

Walther also copied the P7 gas system in their CCP pistol.

Rogak copied the Steyr GB gas system and screwed it up, and there hasn't been another GB style pistol since AFAIK. The GB was also different in that the frame was made of two steel pressings welded together. I don't know of anyone else building a pistol that way.

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Release the Kraken

would the Gyrojet count?

My nomination is the COP.
Heavy, bulky, bad trigger and only 4 shots.
But prices are rising on these in the used market.

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I told you not to use Lifebuoy

Does anyone here own a Semmerling? That was an awkward design.

That was a pretty radical design back in the day. Expensive too! Seems there wasn't a big market for a compact .45 ACP manually operated repeater. I don't think I've ever seen one, only the write-up's in gun rags.

The Kimball semi-automatic pistol also qualifies as a dead end. I've seen a couple of them over the years. They were made in Detroit back in the 1950's and had a blowback action. Not a good idea when shooting .30 Carbine ammunition!

They bring good money these days, for a gun that's unsafe to shoot!

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"I also cook."

The HK P7 definitely qualifies.
The Remington R51 is another.
The COP.
The Luger with it's toggle-locking mechanism.

I'm sure there are many others that have been found to be too expensive, too complicated or just too inefficient.

I'd hardly list the Browning HP as a failed design judging by its long production run, licensed copies, 2 new manufacturers, widespread adoption. Only flaw in that JMB/Dieudonne Saive design is since it was designed around the 9MMP it cannot be chambered in larger rounds-38 Super, 45 ACP without major redesign and retooling-think of the S&W M639 and M645.
The NJ State Police adopted the Heckler and Koch P7M for its "safe" action, the troopers didn't like it, required a totally different technique for drawing it, reholstering, etc.

I think of dead-end designs as pistols with characteristics that will never be used in another new pistol.

It has nothing to do with collectability.

P7s are now very collectable but I don't see any new pistols copying that squeeze-cocking mechanism.

I had a Semmerling LM4.
Bought it from a Dr that had it returned to him some yrs after it was stolen from him.
There's an interesting back story to it all, but I will keep that quiet for now.

The gun was recovered in a PD warrant search of a premises, The gun had been in a bag or box in the trunck of a veh that was partially submerged in a shallow pond on the property.

The good Dr. accepted the LM4 back. A few parts were disassembled already, a couple small parts missing.
He hosed it down with WD40. Removed a few more of the parts and left it for a time.
He mentioned it to me at a show. I was interested,,a project after all!

I traded him a shooter Luger for it. Something he had always wanted.

The LM4 was stainless construction except for a few of the small parts.
It cleaned up well. I made a small cover plate and a spring for it that it needed.
Re-assembly was not too difficult.
He came up with the orig owners manual and an extra set of wooden grips for it. It was missing the grips when returned.

With some time and work it all went back together. The magazine was in nice shape yet.

Just as advertised, it functioned perfectly with FMJ rounds.
It's a DA only trigger pull that levers a pin upwards as the trigger is pulled to lock the slide to the frame.
Releasing the trigger, drops the locking pin. Then the slide is simply held shut by a ball-detent .
That is easily overcome by the shooter to push the slide forward,,that ejects the fired case,,then pull the slide back closed which picks up a fresh rd from the magazine and chambers it.
All very smooth.
Simple box magazine looks like a cut off 1911 magazine.

A very heavy little pistol. The 'slide forward' manual operation was awkward in the beginning. But soon became easy to get used to.

Hitting the paper,,a 25yrd Rapid Fire pistol target at that range,, was no problem shooting off hand and shooting deliberately.
Not exactly what the gun was meant for, but it showed what was possible with it.

I kept if for a couple yrs and finally sold,,just like everything else it seems.

That's my Semmerling story.

I think the Whitney Wolverine should be added to the list. Innovative design and construction materials. Just didn’t do well.

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1601 (ret)

The Remington XP-100 was odd. I saw quite a few as a teenager, but only knew a few people who bought one. Those guns were cannibalized; the actions used to build varmint rifles.

One strange dead end design many may never have heard of was the blow-forward pistol, best exemplified by the Schwarzlose 1908. Instead of the breech blowing back, the barrel blows forward. There have been several pistols (and even some long guns) marketed using that principle, but none caught on. And then there is the Dardick Tround open chamber revolver. I have always believed that it had some potential had it been redesigned to have more eye appeal. While never used in a handgun design to my knowledge, the Daisy VL caseless cartridge principle would certainly qualify.

Somewhere packed away, I have a book entitled “Firearms Oddities” which is devoted entirely to exploring all the oddball gun designs developed since the invention of black powder. I haven’t seen it for many years.

Mossberg Brownie?

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Like the “off brand” thread where major manufacturers like Walther and H&K were considered by some to be “off brand”, this thread needs a definition of “dead end”.

From my perspective, dead end means having no design features that led anywhere.

The Luger’s toggle bolt design was interesting and resulted in exceptionally smooth operation, but it was sensitive recoil wise. It was designed for full power ammo and works well only with ammo in a fairly narrow range. However, a well maintained Luger with suitable ammo runs like a well oiled sewing machine and is a joy to shoot. But it led no where and offered nothing in terms of lasting innovation, other than the 9mm Luger round itself.

——

The P08 Luger was replaced but the Walther P38, which was also a dead end configuration wise. However, it’s locking system still lives on in the Beretta 92. It can’t be called a “dead end”, given the long standing use of one or more design elements.

—-

The Browning Hi Power has that in spades as it was the first high capacity semi auto pistol and spawned countless pistols using a double stack magazine. That double column single feed magazine is still state of the art.

Similarly, the Browning linkless delayed recoil locking system is also widely copied and is still found in “modern” pistols. The S&W system is itself a variation on the design.

In terms of the gun itself, the Hi Power was only recently dropped by Browning and is still in production by at least three other companies, so it hasn’t been a dead end even from a configuration perspective.

LVSteve is correct that some shooters with meaty hands who also try to use a modern high grip with it my get bit by the hammer, but those same shooters are also not gripping it as it was designed to be gripped. That could be argued as a “dead end” but it can also be addressed with a slight reshaping of the hammer and or the tang.

So I’m not hating on LVSteve for suggesting the Hi Power as a dead end design, but I am thinking of starting a prayer chain for him as he’s obviously suffered a stroke or head injury in the last couple days.

——

Browning did launch its share of dead end designs however.

The Browning BDM (Browning Dual Mode) (top) was an interesting designed developed for FBI pistol trials that offered the ability to either be operated in a normal DA/SA pistol mode, or in a DAO revolver mode just by rotating a switch on the slide. It was also clearly intended for concealed carry use, with the thinnest grip I’ve ever encountered on a double stack magazine pistol. It was a very innovative design that went absolutely no where.

The FN HP-DA (middle) was designed as a double action version of the Hi Power. However, it didn’t have much of the feel of a Hi Power, went in a more modern direction style wise, and had no parts, commonality with a Hi Power. It also wasn’t innovative in any of its engineering. FN and Browning both introduced it at different times but it never caught on.

The Browning SFS Hi Power (bottom) was an excellent design that offered some of the benefits of DA/SA operation while retaining the SA trigger and cocked and locked condition 1 operation. It was designed for the XM9 trials was but was eliminated for not being a DA/SA pistol. It was slightly redesigned and offered commercially but never met with much success. It’s a Mk III Hi Power in all respects, except for the SFS hammer, safety and slide release lever (and the lever is just a cosmetic change). No one has ever picked up the “Safety Fast Shooting” hammer system, making that aspect of it a total dead end. (The hammer profile also eliminated hammer bite as an issue.)

Apparently you never owned one.

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Formerly Model520Fan

I have handled and fired one, and when Winston used his at Omdurman in 1898 it was state of the art. He wrote that due to a shoulder injury he decided to use a handgun instead of his sword and he probably realized more than 6 rounds would be handy. Other than the Spanish Astra look alikes and the Chinese copies nobody else picked up the design, no repros today that I know of. The one time I fired a Luger I found the toggle action very distracting, its main appeal is it feels good in the hand and points naturally.
The Mauser M1910/1914/1934-like the Cz-27 which they resemble-had long production runs but have inspired no successor designs unlike JMB.

I think it was a S&W but I could be wrong.

It was a double action revolver that shot 9mm without moon clips. Little spring loaded fingers grabbed the shells for extracting

The revolver that fires semiauto rounds is not so much of a dead end-think of the S&W M-25 so much an idea that flickers off and on-"They oughta make", then they do-and it doesn't sell. There's the one cylinder for all calibers-have hazy memories of a cylinder firing 9MMP, 38 Super, 9mm Largo (?), moonclips vs a specially designed ejector. Taurus lists their 692 revolver with interchangeable .357/9MMP cylinders.
eveled, you are thinking of the S&W M547, 10,000 made 1980-1985, now it seems they are quite desireable.

There was the Medusa revolver that seemed like a good idea but never really took off.

I think Charter Arms has made revolvers in 9mm that didn't require moonclips but I'm not 100% sure about that.

Moonclips seem here to stay as it is a relatively cheap and easy way to achieve the goal.

Just knew I was in love with the P7!
So my Buddy gets some, German Police trade -ins I think.
Took me a good 10-15 sec to realize,
I don’t like this Gun!
I know, they have gone up faster than most anything else I have bought.
And I could have had one at Wholesale!

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Yep, I have one.
I have yet to shoot it.

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There was the Charter Arms Pittbull in the 1980s chambered for the out of production 9MM Federal-a rimmed 9MMP, sort of like the Auto Rim. Short-lived, unsuccesful and proprietary rounds are a study in themselves.

Would the Chiappa Rhino fit into this conversation? I have handled one a couple of times and just didn't like the way the felt in my hand. Have never fired one though. But this may not qualify, as they are still being produced!

I would also have to add the S&W Model 53 in 22 Rem Jet to this list. I have one and it's fun to shoot, but they certainly didn't sell well in their day.

My other one I have been thinking of is the Mauser M2. Not for the rotating barrel, but mainly for the positioning of the safety on the rear of the pistol frame! I don't mind it all too much, but it is an odd location for a manual safety if you ask me.

I'm glad I had the foresight to get one many years ago - the whole kit. This was a former German police gun from Neidersachen, and is in excellent condition. Could not afford one today.

John

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The S&W M-53 Jet is what I call a Great Idea That Didn't Work. Chambering
high pressure tapered rounds in revolvers sounds great in theory, but the ones that were chambered in the past-32-20, 38-40, 44-40 were low pressure rounds that did not create case setback.
The rotating barrel pistol is another, there was the Obregon in Mexico, the Beretta Cougar is still in production but gets little press.
Again, I like to think of design features that were an instrinsic part of the design, but were quickly surpassed by simpler designs that were easier to manufacture, disassemble, more user friendly.

Many today consider the Whitney Wolverine a grail gun. I wrote it up in my book 101 Classic Firearms. Its history is a tale of woe and is worth reading. This one is mine, from May, 1956.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Maybe having the safety on the back is handy when holstering the gun. It is an oddity, for sure, and I still need to shoot the one I bought during COVID.

Funny you should mention rotating barrel pistols. The Grand Power series could be considered a dead end design because of the horrible takedown/reassembly and their sensitivity to dirt (according to a test on Youtube). That said, I think they are great. They have excellent triggers, and are so smooth to shoot with minimal recoil.

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Release the Kraken

No head injuries involved, I'm afraid. Maybe I'm just "that guy", but I never bought into the Hi Power mystique from the first time I touched one or got to shoot one. I find the original grips clunky, the BDM is vastly superior it terms of ergos for me, even though it does not look that different. Should have snagged the one I was offered years ago, they are stupid money these days.

Those that complain the HP was made too small so it cannot take 45 ACP make me smile. It's like complaining that Toyota don't have a V8 option on the Corolla.

Of course, you are quite correct in that the HP pioneered the double stack magazine in a handgun and the linkless barrel operation. Both have reappeared in numerous forms ever since, although success can be mixed. I'm looking at you Remington RP9.

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Release the Kraken

I believe the Savage 1907's 10 round double stack magazine "qualifies" as the pioneer of modern high capacity magazines; no other earlier pistol design that I know of utilized a detachable double column magazine.

The doublestack mag goes back at least to the Savage 1907 of "Ten shots quick" fame.

The Colt 2000. A design that put the last nail in the coffin for Colt.

The late versions of the 2000 weren’t too bad as the worst problems had been resolved. But by then, the damage to its reputation had already been done, and there were no customers. One of the few handgun designs having a rotating barrel lockup. Colt was just too hasty in bringing it out before it was ready for prime time. But Colt had other more serious problems then.

Around ten years ago I found one LNIB in a small West Texas pawnshop for $400. I should have bought it.

Yep. I worked with a drummer that had one. He let me give it a test drive.

That was enough.

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Benelli B-76. Fixed barrel design with a separate bolt that used a toggle link. I've always wanted one. I've seen exactly one in the wild.

Honorably mention to the Remington R51. Yes, the first gens were a train wreck but the second gen guns actually work. I have one and am perfectly satisfied with it.

Had an H&K P7 eons ago. It was neat. Heavy for a single stack. Worked extremely well, but would heat up if you were doing mag dumps. Never understood why it cost so much. The mechanism isn't all that complex. Sold mine for a tidy profit and never looked back.

I'm not sure this thread, or at least the title, is particularly well thought out.

Are we discussing "designs" or particular models?

The Browning Hi-Power is a "model" based on the extremely common and successful locked breech, tilting barrel "design" established much earlier.
And, the "Luger with it's toggle lock that nobody else adopted".
Really? Ever heard of Hiram Maxim? Or, Hugo Borchardt? Even Winchester adopted the toggle lock!

If we're talking designs, we could ask "what ever happened to the break-top revolver?"
Or, "why are there so few gas operated semiauto pistols when that operating system is so commonly used with semiauto rifles?"

If I remember right prototypes had 5-7 lbs triggers. That was the plan until the lawyers got ahold of it.

Is anyone aware of a handgun having a long recoil design? Nothing immediately comes to mind, but it stands to reason that someone must have tried.

You are thinking of the Model 547

It was availble as a 3" round butt or a 4" square butt.

The little spring loaded fingers were beryllium extractors.

The beryllium extractors added too big a cost to the revolver and was the maik reson not to pursue that particular design.

When one broke, you had a 5 shooter for a while as the beryllium extractors were very hard to locate

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"Acta non verba"

The Mauser M2 was a interesting design.

That firearm is actually designed, manufactured and marketed by SIG. Many folks do not realize that SIG owned the rights to the Mauser name when it came to handguns

The rotating barrel design made the M2 a natural for conversion to the 10MM Auto cartridge

As to the location of the safety, that did not bother me as I never engage a safety on a traditional DA/SA or a DAO. In my mind that would be like putting a safety on my Model 27 revolver

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"Acta non verba"

I know the 2000 initially had a very heavy DAO trigger that made hitting anything difficult, which was one of the problems that was later improved on.

.44 Auto Mag was a really cool looking gun! I don't know anything about the handling or reliability but it was off the chart cool looking.

Winchester used a toggle link on the 1873, Borchardt used that isolated feature in a semi auto handgun 20 years later, and Luger, who had worked for Borchardt, finally refined it into a *practical* weapon 7 years later- and then it pretty well died.

Since we are talking about dead end weapons the Winchester 1873 and the C-93 arguable don’t count, but the Luger does.

I sort of remember that there was a European SMG which used something similar to the Luger toggle lock. Possibly Swiss? I’d have to do some research.
—————————-
Indeed it was Swiss. The MP41/44. “Recoil operated using a toggle system similar to the Luger but turned on its side.”

Ian from Forgotten Weapons just uploaded a video about the CZ100 and CZ101. I'd suggest they ended up in tha Failed department bin.