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  #1  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:58 AM
patrick james patrick james is offline
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Here in California just about everybody trying to buy a black rifle in case the SHTF.All I have is a lowly M-1 carbine.Whats your thoughts ?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:58 AM
patrick james patrick james is offline
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Here in California just about everybody trying to buy a black rifle in case the SHTF.All I have is a lowly M-1 carbine.Whats your thoughts ?
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:06 AM
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Sounds good to me. I have my Inland close by, <STRIKE>Condition 3</STRIKE>, but ready to go in case SHTF...With so many illegal scumbags wandering around in my area, you can do a lot worse....
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:08 AM
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There letting 100,000 inmates out because Calif. can't afford to keep them locked up.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:16 AM
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I've got an M1 carbine and I would trust it as a SHTF rifle. I've got plenty of mags, just don't have much ammo on hand right now!
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:29 AM
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LOWLY M-1 carbine....shame on you.

It's short enough to handle in a house, fast, pretty darned accurate for a small rifle, powerful enough to do the job, holds a good bunch of ammo...what's not to like about it?
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  #7  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:34 AM
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..from what I've read about use in Pacific combat zones, it did just fine for it's intended use....

but I ain't no expert....
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:37 AM
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I've got a couple of M-1s, and with Federal softpoint ammo, I trust them for mutt-whackers. My daughter has one of mine, also, which she keeps handy for whatever may need a dose of JSP out on the ranch. I like 'em!
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:38 AM
patrick james patrick james is offline
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It's not black.I think the M-1 carbine is great,thats why I own one.Just don't hear much discussion about them as a pratical defence weapon.Personally I not a fan of the AR style rifles.The carbine was good enough for my Dad in WWII it should be all right for me.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:39 AM
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Fill it with a hollow or soft points if you can find or afford them. A Winchester 43' sits behind a door as this house's rifle. Remember, the .30 M-1 Carbine round has as much muzzle energy @ 100 yards, as a .357 Magnum handgun has at the muzzle. Along with holding at least 15 rounds.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:40 AM
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I have never seen a more handy rifle than an M1 Carbine, i don't think. You know there have been a lot of gun writers bash the little .30 Carbine round, along with the 9mm Parabellum. Those gun writers have one thing in common. They were never shot with one. Those handy little pipsqueaks were responsible for a lot of Japanese fertilizer on Pacific Islands. They served us well in many other Theaters, too, like Europe, Korea, and Vietnam. For the Germans in WW2, it was one of the most coveted war trophies. I know I like mine.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:40 AM
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The first centerfire rifle I bought was a carbine in 1974. I have always enjoyed it and my wife and daughter find it fun and easy to shoot. As an impoverished student the carbine caused me to start reloading in order to shoot. Winchester used to sell a 110gr. HP round and bullet for reloading. I do not know if those bullets are still available. A few years ago I was loading .308 90gr XTPs for a CZ-52. I called Hornady and asked whether they would be good in the carbine. They said that XTPs would hold up to carbine velocities. A bullet designed to expand at 1400 fps should be pretty nasty at 2000 fps. They shoot a little low and to the right in my gun at 50 yards. They grouped well and fed perfectly.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by patrick james:
It's not black.
Couple of mine are. I replaced their heavy wood furniture with Ram-Line black plastic. Handy carbines made even handier!
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:47 AM
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It's not hard to load a .30 Carbine to a level that has muzzle energy at 100 yards to exceed that of a .357 at the muzzle of a handgun. If a .357 at arm's length is adequate for defense, I see no reason why a .30 Carbine shouldn't be at 100 yards. So, yes, it is a viable defensive carbine.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:49 AM
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Great defense weapon in my book. Hi-cap and low recoil. I'd use Cor-Bon DPX. Over 1000 FPE.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:52 AM
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Been using Speer 100 grain "Plinkers" for 35+ years in mine for reloading. Copper base 1/2 way up to keep barrel clean and a lead round nose to give it a chance at expanding. Fairly cheap too!
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
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Deadly little pea shooter - used to good effect in the Pacific by one John George (Shots Fired In Anger)
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wbraswell:
For the Germans in WW2, it was one of the most coveted war trophies. I know I like mine.
I didn't know that. Interesting.
T'aint nothin' wrong with an M1 short for personal defense. If you've got the rounds and the mags I'd say you're good to go. If you've got a bayonet lug and a matching bayonet even better.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:57 AM
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Sir, the M1 carbine is a good little gun: light, handy, reliable, quick to reload, and accurate enough most realistic civilian defense scenarios.

Sometimes you'll run into issues from worn parts because the guns are so old (the GI models were all made during WWII), but quality parts are readily available. GI 15-round magazines usually are more reliable than 30-rounders or anything aftermarket. As has been noted, softpoint or hollowpoint ammo would be preferable to FMJs for defense use.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

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Old 03-06-2009, 12:11 PM
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My father was issued one in Korea, where he was the 1st Sgt, and later battlefield commissioned commander, of an infantry company. The one time I remarked that I thought the carbine was a neat gun, he told me that he had smashed his against a rock, so that he could turn it in and get a rifle, i.e., M1 Garand. When he became company commander, he ordered all of the carbines out, and made everyone carry a Garand. He stated that the carbine round would not penetrate the quilted jackets of the Chinese soldiers. That was the only time he ever mentioned it, and since he's deceased I can't ask him to clarify anything. He served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and was awarded the Combat Infantry Badge, Silver Star, and Bronze Star with V for Valor, so I know he knew about combat. I'm convinced he told me the truth as he knew it.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:13 PM
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A G.I. Underwood Carbine does duty to repel boarders in this household. The AR15 is stowed away. I much prefer the M1 Carbine to the AR 15 which is hugely overrated.

Folks talk about certain handguns as natural "pointers." For me the M1 Carbine is one of the most natural pointing rifles. It is easy to negotiate hallways, stairwells, and doorways with a Carbine.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by patrick james:
Here in California just about everybody trying to buy a black rifle in case the SHTF.All I have is a lowly M-1 carbine.Whats your thoughts ?

I wonder where I could buy one??
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
patrick james patrick james is offline
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I think the American crimnal type is much softer than the Chinese in Korea.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:50 PM
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I have one. Mine is a commercial Iver Johnson that is probably all GI save the receiver. It's my second M1 carbine.

An M1 carbine is in no way a replacement, or substitute for an M4 carbine or a proper rifle. It was never intended to be. It was meant to replace the 1911 for rear area troops or others for whom carrying an M1 Garand would have been a burden.

They found their way into the front lines all the same, and with decidedly mixed opinions and results.

These days they are iffy for a couple reasons. The first is the mags. You have your choice of dubious aftermarket (though to be fair, my 15rd ProMags actually seem okay) or 60 year old GI mags. The second is ballistics. Unlike a 5.56mm (or larger) carbine or rifle, .30 M1 Carbine bullets will not reliably penetrate soft body armor. They'll be iffy against even an uparmored Bundswehr surplus vest.

If you're in California, unless you have grandfathered mags, you're limited to 10 rd aftermarket. Many of these are worse than the full capacity aftermarket mags in terms of QC since Cali (and similar destinations) are a captive market.

Ammunition for the M1 carbine is also very hard to find right now.

Modern optics cannot be fitted without an aftermarket rail. Such rails as are available do allow "scout" mount optics, but these will add weight. Mounting a light will also be a problem unless you just want to break out the Gorilla tape.

Plus side? Light, handy, friendly looking.

Carbines can be had new from Kahr, or surplus from the DCM, or readily found on Gunbroker or Auction Arms for those that want one.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:17 PM
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Load it with the Cor-Bon DPX, if you can find any, and you will have yourself a real fine defensive rifle.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:06 PM
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No, the M-1 is no good for defense. E-mail me and I'll take it off your hands for, say $250, and then you can buy a real gun.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
They shoot a little low and to the right in my gun at 50 yards.
The sights are adjustable...

Quote:
I wonder where I could buy one??
CMP still has them ... CMP_M1_Carbine_Sales

Quote:
I much prefer the M1 Carbine to the AR 15 which is hugely overrated.
I don't know if I would go that far, but for home defense the M1 Carbine is better than any handgun.
It still may be prudent to keep a pistol in the nightstand so you have that option.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:40 PM
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I have two with several 30 round mags and plenty of ammo. Are they adequate? I sure hope I never find out.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:50 PM
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My Standard Products carbine is my main zombie gun.

Here is an interesting take on the carbine vs. quilted jackets story.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
It was meant to replace the 1911 for rear area troops or others for whom carrying an M1 Garand would have been a burden.
That's why I could never figure out why they left the thumb safety off the M1 Carbine.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:00 PM
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While I don't doubt the Korean vet believed what he said, I don't find that the physics support the idea. And the above link backs it up. Raking shots, misses and shots over 200 yards ? Still don't know, but 100 yards in I'd be hard pressed to believe the old carbine round wouldn't make a hole . . . John George tells of the round perforating both sides of a Japanese helmet and the melon in between, numerous times.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by safearm:
My father was issued one in Korea, where he was the 1st Sgt, and later battlefield commissioned commander, of an infantry company. The one time I remarked that I thought the carbine was a neat gun, he told me that he had smashed his against a rock, so that he could turn it in and get a rifle, i.e., M1 Garand. When he became company commander, he ordered all of the carbines out, and made everyone carry a Garand. He stated that the carbine round would not penetrate the quilted jackets of the Chinese soldiers. That was the only time he ever mentioned it, and since he's deceased I can't ask him to clarify anything. He served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and was awarded the Combat Infantry Badge, Silver Star, and Bronze Star with V for Valor, so I know he knew about combat. I'm convinced he told me the truth as he knew it.

Your father was correct !!

I just finished reading The Last Stand of Fox Company by Bob Drury & Tom Clancy. Fox company was charged with holding hill # ???, later called Fox hill. This was a high point in the Toktong Pass on the road between Yudam-ni in the North where the Marines were being attacked by the Chinese and Hagaru-ri, a Marine base in the South. It was always well below zero when the Chinese attacked at night. In addition to their heavy quilted parkas, they wore several layers underneath. This made it almost impossible to get fatal hits with the carbine. After the first attack, anyone using a carbine was ordered to aim for the head ! Another interesting sidenote was that several Chinese bodies were found to have pre-installed tourniquets on their arms and legs ! They weren't going to be stopped by loss of blood if hit in the extremities !!!
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:09 PM
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How many thousands or ten's of thousands of men went to an early grave because of being on the wrong end of an M1 carbine. I think it would do very well as a defence (zombie) gun.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:25 PM
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It’ll take care of Zombies just fine.

Emory
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by crofoot629:
It’ll take care of Zombies just fine.

Emory
As long as they ain't wearing them damn quilted parkas
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:45 PM
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There are conflicting arguments about the problems in Korea among those who were there. I wasn't there, and know nothing about it first hand. One interesting version I heard was that the carbines being used at the time were actually M2's (full auto version of M1) and that much of the failure can be attributed to the fact that most soldiers did not shoot M2's accurately, especially in the winter. Whatever the problems really were, rumors of underpenetration spread throughout the army and a lot of carbines were ditched for Garands which everyone will agree penetrate just fine, probably through two or three enemies if you can line em up just right. I've read about some pretty impressive tests of .30 carbine FMJ penetration through multiple layers of frozen fabrics and other barriers.

Anyway, I have a few M1 carbines along with lots of Remington jacketed soft point factory ammo, and more of the same bullets for reloading. Using them for home defense I'm more worried about overpenetration than under.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rewster:
Another interesting sidenote was that several Chinese bodies were found to have pre-installed tourniquets on their arms and legs ! They weren't going to be stopped by loss of blood if hit in the extremities !!!
This was also done by the Phillipine Moros, those little Moslem fanatics who famously couldn't be stopped by .38 Colt revolvers. (And, had they been available, probably not by M1 carbines, either.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:27 PM
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Most zombies are clad in jeans and t-shirts. Even FMJ should be adequate. I have a Quality Hardware and a IJ as back-up to a AK and mossy 500 and ample ammo. I hope that I never need any of them. I bought .30 cal. when it was $10 a box.
The Quality Hardware is spooky accurate at 100 yards. I would think that zombie encounter range would be much less.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:29 PM
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Using them for home defense I'm more worried about overpenetration than under.
Yeah, let's not compare results for across the room vs. across a mountain valley.
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by yashua-p:
Most zombies are clad in jeans and t-shirts.
Unless they're Nazi zombies.
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  #41  
Old 03-06-2009, 06:38 PM
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I had an opportunity while in the Army in the 50’s to fire an M2 carbine frequently. I doubt if anyone hit much of anything on full auto. The cyclic rate of fire was very high, even with practice you could not squeeze off a short burst, it became a long burst. Training was to start at the ground to the immediate right of target because it would climb up and left for a right-handed shooter. I seem to remember that you could have all of the brass from a 30 rd mag in the air at once.
You would not want to use an M2 on auto for home defense.
A good friend who was in some very nasty places in Korea said that he issued them to guards, because when fired they would have the whole company awake instantly. Lots of very unpleasant night attacks.
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  #42  
Old 03-06-2009, 07:11 PM
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Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:42 PM
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The carbine was the weapon of choice of no other than Audie Murphy....endorsement enough.
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  #44  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!
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  #45  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by perpster:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!
Sir, done. (huff, puff)

Semper Fi,

Ron H.
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  #46  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Quote:
Originally posted by perpster:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
Ron H., You are slipping, sir. You forgot to start your post with "Sir . . ." DROP AND GIVE ME 20!
Sir, done. (huff, puff)

Semper Fi,

Ron H.
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  #47  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:37 PM
gbrady gbrady is offline
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bought one from the DCM in the 60's, hunted everything legal in Okla and never had anything run off from the HP's, should work fine as a SHTF gun
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  #48  
Old 03-07-2009, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Regarding failures to stop with the carbine, I doubt underpenetration was the problem, at least with square hits at at close range. The .30 carbine's 110-grain roundnose bullet (which is rather pointy) delivered impressive penetration in Army tests when the gun was adopted. I'm sure those results can be found online somewhere.

Rather, I suspect those little pointy roundnose FMJs simply didn't do much damage on their way through the bad guys. See Elmer Keith's comments on pointed bullets in "Sixguns." He wrote that they tended to deflect on bones unless they were struck squarely, and even when they did hit squarely, they slipped through the target without creating much of a wound channel.

This makes more sense to me than the "heavy clothing" and "lousy marksmanship" theories. Surely not every guy who had a failure to stop with the carbine was shooting poorly.

Since good expanding bullets are available for the carbine, I'd save the FMJs for practice and use softpoints or hollowpoints for social work.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
I think Ron really summed up the M1 carbine nicely. My first squad leader was a LRRP in Vietnam. He hated the M1 carbine. All the carbine wounds and shootings he witnessed were with FMJ ammo (also of interest is that I never heard him say anything negative about the M-16).

Jim Cirillo had very positive things to say about the M1 carbine, provided it was loaded with hollowpoints. An M-1 crbine with hollowpoints is a proven fight stopper.

In testing I have done, heavy clothing doesn't slow down bullets much and it won't stop an M-1 carbine.

If you use the carbine for defense use hollowpoints and you are well armed. Use FMJ and you are using a very second rate system.
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  #49  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:38 AM
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If heavy clothing can't stop a .22 Short or even a .25ACP, why would it stop a .30 Carbine?
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  #50  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:37 AM
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I carry a M1 carbine in M1A1 configuration for a patrol carbine as a deputy sheriff. My department bought 60 surplus M1 carbines for $150 each in 2000. These appeared to have been re-imported in from Israel. Overall, they were well used but very servicable. Having some previous experiance with M1 carbines as a collector, I was assigned the task of servicing them so we could issue them for duty. This was a very enjoyable and exciting 3 month assignment.



I stripped the carbines down and completely cleaned them and replaced all the springs with new ones. The stocks that were salvageable we stripped and refinished with boiled lindseed oil, but some we restocked with new ones. We even tried out a few synthetic stocks with rails that actually worked pretty well. We also bought what seems like a ton of FMJ ammo for practice, but for duty use we carry round-nosed-soft-hollow-points.

I spent a great deal of time on the range testing every rifle. We share our range with several local police departments, many of which issue or authorize the use of black rifles. I got a lot of time shooting side by side with AR's in friendly competitions for accuracy and tactical training. Flat out the M1 carbine held it's own at anything under 150 yards. Reliablity was 100%, so for those who complain about their carbines not being reliable, you need to consider changing out those 60+ year old USGI springs.

Back to the ammo . . . I won't argue about whether the Chinese quilted jackets stopping the .30 carbine round is a myth or not, but I will tell you it WILL penetrate Level II and IIA ballistic vests. It will also defeat auto glass and auto body. The 110 grain round-nosed-soft-hollow-point is a very effective round. (Though I don't recommend the .30 carbine as a deer cartridge, I have taken 4 legal bucks with this round and they were all one stop shots at 40-60 yards.)



I have carried a M1 carbine as a patrol carbine since 2000. I have retired my rebuilt USGI carbine and started carrying a new one. A few years ago I built several M1 carbines from scratch using new Springfield, Inc., receivers, new barrels, and new/old stock USGI carbine parts. The result is basically a brand new gun.

Through experiance, stay away from 30 round magazines. Commercial magazines are a hit or miss afair. 30 round USGI magazines, though much more reliable, run $75.00+ on the collector market and aren't worth the cost. I have been using 20 round commercial magazines with very good success and that's what I use now. Of course, USGI 15 round magazines operate pretty much flawlessly.



The original question was would the M1 carbine make a good home defense weapon. My answer would be absolutely yes. Just remember, though I think the M1 carbine is pretty much over-engineered for the .30 carbine round it shoots, USGI carbines are all over 60 years old. If you are going to let your life depend on it, make sure it's in 100% operating condition.
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