USAF Brig. General: What Shoulder Holster Is He Wearing?

[ordnanceguy]

Gentlemen:

Can anyone identify the maker and model of shoulder holster being worn by this USAF BG? This photo was taken in January, 2012 in Afghanistan. The pistol is the Beretta M9.

I am pretty good with the older USGI stuff, but the current issue holsters are undecipherable to me. Thanks for any help.



A closer view of the holster.

[Joe Kent]

I think it is Galco.

[XAVMECH]

If that was in 'stan, I'd want a magazine in that thing!

[Herknav]

I second the vote for Galco.

I cannot comment on XAVMECH's statement without feeling like I'm violating OPSEC. I'll just say, "Rules of Engagement" and let the picture speak for itself.

[ordnanceguy]

Thank you , Joe, and the others. I think you are absolutely correct. I just went to the Galco site and found what appears to be the identical holster identified as their VHS (Vertical Holster System) model, apparently a modified version of the old "Miami" holster.

Here is the link: Galco holsters; Holsters; Gun holster, pistol holsters, western holsters, shoulder holsters, leather holster and Glock holsters

Next question: Is this holster a US Government issue item, or is it a private purchase item (or maybe both!)

Thanks again for the ID help on this one. I have seen so many styles of holsters being worn by our soldiers, airmen, Marines and sailors over the past decade of hostilities that it is hard to keep up with them all.

[woodsltc]

Originally Posted by XAVMECH

If that was in 'stan, I'd want a magazine in that thing!

I noticed that too!! Wonder why he's not got a magazine in it??

Don

[LTC]

I think that weapons must generally be unloaded ( magazines out ) inside the wire. I could be 100% wrong though.

LTC

[Badkarma 1]

Considering the officer is a Brig. Gen.; he's either got a security detail, and/or in "meet and greet" mode with some locals. ROE not withstanding it needs to a "hot weapon"! Flag officers are walking targets. Dake

[Herknav]

It could be either a unit purchase item or a personally procured item. As for ROE, send your complaints to the guys that write the ROE.

[jlrhiner]

Maybe they don't trust him..........he is in the Air Force.

Seriously though, I bet it's a meet 'n greet.

[squidsix]

That uniform indicates it's an older photo. Like five years or more. At that time, in every FOB in Iraq, you had to have a condition 4 pistol. The only time you were allowed to make condition 3/1, you had to be off the base.

[OFT II]

Originally Posted by woodsltc

I noticed that too!! Wonder why he's not got a magazine in it??

Don

That's General Barney Fife!!!

[ordnanceguy]

My source on the photo indicates that the occasion was a 2012 change of command ceremony at Kandahar Airfield in Afghanistan.

[sipowicz]

Thanks...now I remember who I lent my shoulder holster to....

[safearm]

The Galco shoulder rigs were purchased either by the individual or the unit. At first everybody used the standard horizontal holsters until someone decided that they were dangerous due to the muzzle pointing at the person behind the wearer. Then the vertical holsters became the standard.
The magazine missing from the butt means this picture was taken "inside the wire." I spent a year in Iraq following the same rules; you had to carry 2 loaded magazines, but couldn't lock and chamber unless you went outside the wire or the base was under attack.
BTW, BGs didn't rate a protective detail.

[m1gunner]

Originally Posted by XAVMECH

If that was in 'stan, I'd want a magazine in that thing!

An empty weapon is nothing more than a club. If he wants to carry a club, it needs to be much bigger.

[wogentry]

The times I was over there my Air Force units (Security Forces) didn't issue squat but a safariland thigh holster. They wouldn't even order the stock Tanker rig. Most people bought cheap shoulder holsters at the "Haji" shop for off duty/carrying the pistol with the PT uniform etc. The quality of said holsters and exactly what animal the leather came from was most times dubious.

[Texas Star]

The empty 9mm and the "meet and greet" puts me in mind of one of Churchll's books, written while still a cavalry officer on the frontier that was then British India, now in Pakistan.

The Afghans and Pathans in general were the enemy then, as now.

Lt. Churchill's commander, Gen. Sir Bindon Blood , went to a parley with some tribesmen. One went for him wih a knife. Blood drew quickly and shot him just in time. He said that he had learned never to trust these men, who simply do not think as Westerners do, and in whom tribal issues, Islamic fanaticism, and general quirkiness prevail. He had been watching the man who attacked, seeing subtle signs that he was about to go for him.

Churchill didn't identify Sir Bindon's revolver or say whether he was wearing a flap holster. The future Prime Minister was wearing a Model 1892 Wilkinson-Webley .455 in those days. He soon added a Mauser 7.63mm, which he used in the famous charge at Omdurman in the Sudan, killing several Dervishes with it. By WW I, he had bought a Colt Govt. Model .45, which he often carried under his suit as PM in WW II.. The outline is really clear in one famous photo of him in North Africa.

Anyway, I think it is madness not to have the magazine in the gun while meeting Afghans.

[35Rem]

Originally Posted by woodsltc

I noticed that too!! Wonder why he's not got a magazine in it??

Don

The real question is: "Why wear one with no magazine in it?"

[Alpo]

Might as well carry it empty. Between having that stupid "safety strap" on it, and not having it attached at the bottom (and it's obviously not, since there is no place on that jumpsuit to attach it to) if trouble started, by the time he got the gun out either the trouble would be over or he'd be dead. Why bother with ammo?

[wogentry]

As was mentioned earlier, on the FOBs inside the wire, weapons are cleared with no magazine inserted except for the towers/patrols on the perimeter, Security Forces on duty, QRF, and a few other misc persons. Weapons Posture green they called it. If a possible threat to the FOB arose the higher ups will order Weapons Posture Yellow, where we all insert a magazine. If the the FOB is under attack then your at Stand too anyway and you probably have chambered a round (Red). At least thats how it was during my time in Iraq. The General is probably meeting and greeting the troops on the base thus Weapon Posture Green.

[wogentry]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Might as well carry it empty. Between having that stupid "safety strap" on it, and not having it attached at the bottom (and it's obviously not, since there is no place on that jumpsuit to attach it to) if trouble started, by the time he got the gun out either the trouble would be over or he'd be dead. Why bother with ammo?

From my observations all the shoulder holsters sold at the BX, or the Haji shop were like that. I found it rather odd they (Army/Air Force) would rather have people running around with pistols a flappin every which way, or listen to the clatter of a pistol falling out of a cheap holster at the chow hall than issue the tanker rig that is aready in the supply system. As much money as was spent on useless **** you think they could at least shell out a few bucks for a decent holster. If I needed a shoulder holster, I used my El Paso Saddlery remake of the tanker rig.

[Roadranger]

To the question at hand. The hoslter is a Galco Vetical shoulder rig. It's designed to be worn by air crewmen or vehicle crewmen who are usually dressed in flight suits or nomex coveralls. As noted, there is no attachment to fasten the holster, as those garments have no place to fasten it to. Galco has a program for people to donate such items to servicemen and of course, overseas personnel can buy them direct. I have one in black for the Sig 226 with the quad magazine pouch on the off side for a total of 91 rounds of 9mm. The Galco rig was designed to give the crewmen something to fight with if they had to abandon their plane, helicopter, or Bradley and didn't have a chance to get a long gun. The holster is very well made and quite useful. Bob!!

[GatorFarmer]

I was shown, not long ago, a black leather example of a locally made shoulder rig that came out of Iraq. It was molded to fit an M9, but was curiously embossed with "GLOCK" (all caps) on the side. Quality seemed decent, at least it was decent enough to last a deployment for someone and then take home. I'd suspect that like everywhere else, you get what you pay for when it comes to locally made products.

Anyway... there's an adapter that can be used with the old, and probably now obsolete - Bianchi UM-84 holsters. I forget the NSN, but it converts one into a tanker style rig. Some former Army people called it a "paratrooper" or "jump" rig variously. I have one in the closet that was modified a bit with 100mph duct tape to make it more functional. The association with airborne units could be spurious since it was hearsay.

[cowart]

Originally Posted by Alpo

by the time he got the gun out either the trouble would be over or he'd be dead

He is not a good candidate for doing a fast draw from a shoulder holster anyway. Too bulky in the shoulders and upper torso. Shoulder holsters work best for tall lanky guys.

[Doug M.]

It is really painful for a cop to see the silly regs that military folks live by with regard to firearms. The mindset about unloaded firearms, clearing barrels and the like is as foreign to me as space travel. Mine are always loaded, except for cleaning and (locked up) storage. It's pretty easy when at a class to tell the difference between military and LE trained folks. The cops get their duty belt etc on, with the pistol ready to go, then do other stuff. Most others only load on command. What I see displayed in that photo is a discipline problem, and a darned poor role model.

[george minze]

I'll just bet that following orders is one reason he is a BG....Stupid stuff in the military is nothing new.....Most rules are made for the lowest common domination....Eh!! the darn holster looks good anyway..

[ordnanceguy]

I got a nice, prompt reply from Galco whose rep. told me that the VHS holster shown in the photo is not USGI and has no NSN number assigned to it. However, as mentioned by Safearm above he also said that some units made direct purchases and that many individual soldiers, airmen, etc. made private purchases of these holsters. Galco has also donated a lot of holsters to US servicemen.

[JayCeeNC]

Charlie, I saw a multitude of shoulder rigs while working in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past few years. Units were very liberal on what could be used. Most were commercially manufactured holsters, and some were locally produced in-country. All shapes and sizes, and most were flopping around under the wearer's arm as current uniforms don't offer access to the pants belt because the blouse covers it up, so no way to secure the holster.
I also saw some pitiful examples of how not to wear a pistol. One which sticks in my mind is a female USAF Lieutenant who wore a left handed shoulder holster backwards under her left armpit...which put the pistol in such a position that it could never be drawn without removing the rig entirely. She wasn't allowed out of her bunker during attacks...

[Texas Star]

My son did three tours in Iraq and one mission in a place that I can't mention. He often wore his 9mm in a vest which had a built-in holster. He liked it because if someone ran up and tried to throw a grenade in his vehicle, the pistol was easy to access. (Someone did run up and knife a man in the back of his open vehicle. It was a serious leg wound.)

He found the 9mm ball to be pretty effective, although he sometimes shot twice, to be sure. In some cases, he had to depart the area in great haste and wasn't able to check enemy that he'd dropped, so he can't be sure they all died. The longest one lasted that he knows of was a guy running at him wth a Dragunov sniper rifle, with which he had been shooting at my son's men moments earlier. The guy was running downstairs from a rooftop in a house, where he ran into the room that my son had just entered.

That worthy took a single 9mm hit to the chest, and dropped, out of action. He scrabbled around in pain for maybe a minute, as a medic ran up and tried to save him, then went to claim his allotted 72 virgins, or whatever the official Muslim virgin ration in paradise is. The rest just dropped and died, nine confirmed.

I feel sort of sorry for these enemy fighters who expect 72 virgins. As character Marguerite Krux observed on, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World", "Virgins are highly overrated."
But some learn fast, I suppose...

There is some merit in having empty weapons inside the wire, as some soldiers are not very careful with firearms, and the brass fears accidental discharges. But ammo should certainly be carried on the person. If something bad happens, there's no time to run to the barracks or an ammo dump!

I'm just glad that the general shown is armed. Too many today seem to shun wearing handguns. Many senior officers seem almost weapons-phobic. This is in stark contrast to previous wars where almost all officers in combat areas are pictured with pistols. Gen. James Gavin even carried (also) a M-1 rifle in battle areas. A photo of Col. Darby, founder of the Rangers, shows an M-1903-A1 Springfield in a boot on his motorcycle. He also wore a .45 auto and a Fairbairn commando knife on his belt.

In his book, "Soldier", Gen. Tommy Franks mentioned being armed with concealed handguns, sometimes even while meeting foreign dignitaries. He knew that some in places where we're fighting now are untrustworthy. But in previous wars, a general would probably have worn openly.

Who is influencing our military in this regard; Mayor Bloomberg?! Being armed should not be a stigma! I wonder is it's a feeling that executives are too important and privileged to be seen armed, that being for lower ranks?

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

A photo of Col. Darby, founder of the Rangers, shows an M-1903-A1 Springfield in a boot on his motorcycle. He also wore a .45 auto and a Fairbairn commando knife on his belt.

http://www.theliberator.be/Liberator...s/DarbyWLA.jpg

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Alpo

http://www.theliberator.be/Liberator...s/DarbyWLA.jpg

Thanks! Hmpf...looks like a regular M-1903 in that photo, which I hadn't seen in years. I thought it had the pistol-gripped stock.

[Rule 303]

Military Generals and Politicians generally don't like to have the troops they command with loaded weapons. Just ask the Marines and Naval Troops who survived the Beirut Lebanon Marine Barracks Bombing. By the time the gate guard Marines got their magazines into their weapons the suscide truck bomb was past them.

Its a matter of trust between the Enlisted Men and their Commanders.

Rule 303

[Herknav]

Originally Posted by Rule 303

Its a matter of trust between the REMF politicians and the guys on the ground.

Fixed it for ya.

[Herknav]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

What I see displayed in that photo is a discipline problem, and a darned poor role model.

The military would argue that he is an outstanding role model because he is following the ROEs that were handed down to him. Violating their policies on weapons would be considered undisciplined.

[Doug M.]

You are correct, but that speaks poorly of the training and role modeling provided. The idea that such ROEs are appropriate is the discipline issue; that BG is certainly not responsible for them, some collection of O-10s and above are. Those are the ones who should be disciplined.

[GatorFarmer]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

There is some merit in having empty weapons inside the wire, as some soldiers are not very careful with firearms, and the brass fears accidental discharges. But ammo should certainly be carried on the person. If something bad happens, there's no time to run to the barracks or an ammo dump!

Who is influencing our military in this regard; Mayor Bloomberg?! Being armed should not be a stigma! I wonder is it's a feeling that executives are too important and privileged to be seen armed, that being for lower ranks?

There used to be buckets or drums full of sand at gates and outside buildings. You had to point your muzzle down towards it when clearing your weapon. One would often see the signs of bullet impacts in said sand.

Cleared weapons (generally with ammunition on the person) in a war zone stems from a rather simple calculation. More people would accidentally shoot themselves or others than are likely to be lost due to an enemy action. One of the Corpsman from here was recently shot in Afghanistan. The shooter was a Marine who had an accidental disharge in the bunker and shot the poor Corpsman in the leg while he was sleeping. (And Marines are arguably better trained with their weapons than non combat troops in the other services...)

This really isn't a new idea, at least not for the Army. The US Army tightened up regulations regarding going about armed circa 1942/43 as a result of problems with soldiers who were bored, esp when on leave, shooting up the rear areas and local cantinas. It was also during WW2 that careful officers and NCOs began making men tape down the safety spoons on their grenades owing to the number of accidents related to these.

Most general officers are armed, if nothing else, as a symbol of their rank. For a great many years, and perhaps still today, the USAF issued a special pistol for generals as did the Army. You can see one of the AF examples - a 9mm SW auto no less - on display in the NRA museum.

However, handguns are quite well distributed these days, probably seeing their widest issue since World War 1.