The recent LAPD K38 thread got me thinking about the gunleather rigs used by cops "back in the day" in the 40s-70s. I would like to get a modern "correct" gunbelt if I give in to my desire to get a k38 or 6inch M&P. So......

How many bullet loops did the typical cop carry on his belt??

And where were those bullet loops located?? On the back or on the left/weak side??

And when did speedloaders become common items on the gunbelt?? I assume the 70s??

Any photos of vintage/repro rigs would be appreciated, Thanks, Bill

In the 60's three methods were used by most departments..Dump pouches, cartridge loops 6 or 12, and speedloaders. Speedloaders were at first a little hard to get used to. Some you twisted, some you pushed a top button, but all had to be lined up correctly or you could as easily pull out the same crtridges you were trying to load. Most wore the loaders what ever kind they used on stong side as proper loading required you to hold weapon in off hand to load cylinder. Left third and fourth fingers kept the cylinder out and was easy to rotate cylinider for loading....Many used cartridge loops either in 6 or 12 rounds. Usually they needed to be stretched a little to facilitate fast loading....As always some did it different....Many carried loaders in right pocket, worked ok but you needed to check loader for normal lint from the pocket.......I used belt loops that were made by Meyers (I think) that presented the cartridges a little away from the leather...Easier to use quickly.....Boy did your question bring back memories from times long past..........

I never got to use a revolver as a regular service weapon since our dept changed to beretta 92s one or two classes before I hired on in 1990........

Thanks!!

I carried two speed strips loaded with .357 Magnum ammo in "dump pouches" worn at the 4 o'clock position. I also carried 6 rounds, of 38 special ammo, in a plastic ammo wallet in my right shirt pocket.

WSP was a crossdraw 6" on the left hip, cuff case on the right hip, and two dump pouches forward of the left hip. Spare cuff key carried in one of the dump pouches......

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Even older, even crankier....

In the South and SW, the Jordan holster or the parent Border Patrol style was perhaps the most common holster.
Four-inch barrels were prevalent.

The Threepersons style was also common. The thumbsnap variant like the Safariland Model 29 was quite common where I live. The Bianchi Model 5 was also common.

The 1960's boy am I getting old.....In Cincinatti we wore the Buekhimer Clark cross draw. We bought Jorden style for PPC matches...
The matches outlawed the cross draw for a darn good reason. You had to cross over the guy next to you when drawing.....We were lucky nobody got shot, but had a few close calls. We went to the Border Patrol style for matches. I think the reason we used cross draw was we wore a tunic style coat from fall to late spring...Pistol was under the coat that had brake away snaps for ease of draw......That is a conflicting statement......Remember in those days no belt radios, no vests. VBoy we looked good though......But we did carry sticks and learned from the old timers how to use them both for offense and defense, and how to make them do all kind of things . At night, late at night or early morning you could signal the beat next to you by certain taps on metal light poles. It was a certain feeling of security about 3am to hear the beat next to you, for that matter you could hear beats blocks away. As all old guys I guess I miss the comradship of a precient, or district.....Ah " In days of old when Knights were bold and Barons held their sway" Sorry I degress!!!!!!

I started in LE in 1976. My favorite holster for revolvers was the Safariland Model 29, a high ride, butt forward thumbbreak. I started with upright dropboxes, that pivoted downward to "drop" out the cartridges. When I went to the police academy, speedloaders were NOT allowed, nor were semiauto pistols.

Dropboxes, also called dump pouches, were carried to the right of the belt buckle, if you were righthanded.

Some of the officers I knew did use the Jordan holster with loops. Some would load by grabbing two rounds at a time.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I started in 1977 with a Model 28 6 inch in a Bianchi breakfront holster with two HKS speed loaders and a double dump pouch with two speed strips. We carried .38's in your own choice of hand gun most carried four inch model 19's, a few 10's and 15's. Bianchi model 27's were the holster of choice and a few carried in a Jordan style border patrol. The Chief carried an early K 38 4 inch in a Berns and Martin breakfront. The Calif Highway Patrol guys usually carried Hoyt holsters I don't remember what handguns they used. The County Sheriff Dept. carried the relatively new Model 59 with two extra magazines. As a dept. we changed over to the Model 59's in 1980. That Dept. is carrying Berreta's in .40 S&W now.
I left in 1985 to a neighboring county that issued 686's either 4 or 6 inch to patrol and the det.'s were issued model 66 2 1/2 inch, all were issued Rem 125 JHP .357's. When you came off probation you were allowed to carry your own handgun if it was in an approved caliber and model. There were some .44's, .45 colt's and a few 9mm's 59's and HP's and Model 39-2's. I carried a 4 inch 686 until I made probation and was allowed to change over to a Colt 1911 .45 acp. My training officer carried a Coonan Model B in .357 in a holster and mag pouch he made himself. After I had to retire from injuries they switched to the Beretta 92 in 9mm. The Dept. now requires all to carry issued M&P .40's. After shooting the M&P's I think it was a good choice. I didn't like the Beretta's.


Times have really changed.

Why didn't you like the Beretta 92? We have a retired LAPD member who said they were well received there until some thought they needed .45's after the infamous incident where they really needed rifles.

Sorry to hear about your injuries. Hope they gave you a decent retirement?

Texas Star
I answered your PM.

Regards Jim

Just about any configuration of leather from the right time period would be "correct". Many departments issued a particular gun but allowed officers to buy their own of a different make or caliber that adhered to department guidelines, for example "Smith and Wesson or Colt, .38 or bigger bore". I was issued a model 10 with 6 loops because I was skinny. Within a year I was carrying a 4" 25-2 with speed loaders. I also carried 6 rounds in loops in the back. With speed loaders, it's a little difficult to pick two empty brass out and load two more. With speed loaders you have to load in multiples of 6. What are you going to do when you fire 2 or 3 rounds and want to top off? Dump 4 good rounds into your hand, stick them in your pocket, pick out the empty brass and load 6 from your speed loader? Nope. You pick the two empty brass and load with two from your loops.

So unless you're "reenacting" a department with strict rules, just about anything would be correct. Even a level 1 holster with 2 speed loaders, 6 loops in the back and a drop loop for cuffs.

No "renenacting" for me, LOL!!

I just thought I will have to varry the gun some way, so I might as well carry it in the manner it was originally done.

In that case, I'd carry it whichever way feels best for you. When I came on they were just transitioning from flap holsters. They way they were originally carried was cross draw with a shoulder strap over the strong side shoulder down to the gun side of the belt. Later you would see guys carrying a flap holster on the strong side with the "cavalry type" shoulder strap going over the right shoulder to the left side of the belt...What was the strap helping to support? Eventually, they got rid of the shoulder straps and issued an open top, low-bid holster with no security features other than a thumb break.

A lot of those belts still had attachments on the weak side, apparently for a sabre. But I never saw any cops carrying a pistol "cavalry style" on the strong side, butt forward (cross draw) with a sabre on the weak side.....I may have a picture around here somewhere...

They were issuing this type of belt into the 60's and maybe even 70's. Longer than that even for Motor officers. True "cavalry" style would have had the saber on the weak side, hanging from the belt in cross-draw fashion as the primary weapon, with the pistol butt-forward on the strong side for use by either hand as a secondary weapon.

I started in 1977; duty rig was all Don Hume. Jordan River holster with strap carried a S&W Model 15, double drop boxes carried 12 extra rounds. The drop box was carried on the belt just in front of the holster; the way we trained for reloading was to push the cylinder latch with the right thumb (right-handed shooter) and push out the cylinder with the middle 2 fingers of the left hand. You turned the muzzle up and with your left thumb, you ejected the spent cases. While holding the gun in your left hand, you dumped the new cartridges into your right hand (many of us carried Bianchi Speed Strips). You loaded with your right hand, turning the cylinder with your left thumb and middle fingers. Once you were reloaded, you pushed the cylinder closed with your left thumb, and grasped the gun in a two hand hold.
The only other items we carried on the belt was a handcuff case, baton ring, and radio case. Later (about 1979), we were allowed to carry thumb break holsters (we went with the Safariland Model 29) and HKS speedloaders.

Some of the rigs and sidearms I have used through the years:
Many have been posted before on the forum.

USAF Issue gear circa 1970-1990



Holster and dump pouches for web gear, circa late 1950's through the 1990's.



1970 Safety-Speed swivel duty holster



Early 80's Bianchi Model 99T Border Patrol thumbreak
My favorite rig of all. Used up until my retirement in 2011....that holster carried a variety of department issued weapons throughout my civilian career:
Model 10-5
Ruger Security Six
Model 65
Model 686



Just being the stubborn traditionalist, (and because I could,due to my rank) I did not carry autoloaders after we switched in 1997. I maintained qualification with them but still carried a wheelgun on duty.

My perferred setup was a 12 round belt slide(strong side), 2 speed loaders (weak side), 2 speed strips right hip pocket.

Each patrol unit had 50 round boxes of 158gr Winchester SJHP+Ps, 50 rounds of 125gr 357 SJHP Winchester and 20 rounds of 00 Winchester Buck and 10 rounds of 1.5oz rifled 12ga slugs.

I still sling that rig around my waist and practice with it to this day. And yes I can pull 2 rounds at a time from the belt slide without dropping them...

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Take your time..quickly.

I still remember part of the qualification course we did for revolver. They'd NEVER do it nowadays. Too hard for enough people to pass. We scored the targets too.....it wasn't pass/fail.

Fire two rounds, pick the brass out and load two from loops. Fire 4 rounds, pick the two live rounds, eject the 4 empties. Load the two live rounds and 4 more from loops (two at at time). Fire 6, eject all 6 empties, load two, index properly so there are no "clicks" and fire two. Can't do that with speed loaders. There was a time limit but I can't remember what it was. I do remember it was plenty of time though. That course taught great revolver loading skills if you practiced.

I agree. To this day I practice a two round reload and indexing. The belt slides are great for that drill.

The ability to get 2 fast rounds up could save your life. That's the way I was taught years ago and I still believe in it.

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Take your time..quickly.

I started in 1973, in Northern NJ, many things were influenced by the NYPD, including uniforms & equipment.

We had JP safety strap/swivel holsters, worn on a garrison belt, slide w/ 12 rounds of .36 RN lead, handcuff loop & keychain for the call box key. Many "older" guys and traffic & motorcycle cops wore "the clip" which had the retention spring clip that you released through the trigger guard. The Sam Browne was worn by the motorcycle guys and those in Traffic, (previously mounted - horses were eliminated in 1971).

You bought your own equipment and revolver which had to be Colt or S&W, blued, fixed sights, .38 only. We did get a uniform allowance.

Speedloaders showed up in the late '70s. Stainless steel was allowed. 9mm (S&W only) were optional at your own (qualifying) expense.

By 1985 recruits were allowed to have 9mms in the academy.Glocks became mandatory in 1991.

THANK YOU!!!
That was exactly the type of photos & info I was hoping for!!

When I first started out, (Mar '74) we used basket weave and border patrol holsters with the loops, 12 and I carried them on my left side. (I'm right handed). Didn't take me long to realize I didn't like the BP holster and went to the Hoyt break from which I used with my Model 28 until I retired.

In the early 80s they started letting us go to speed loaders and we carried two.

This saved me, because with belt loops I got caught carring reloads. I wasn't fond of the issue ammo with was 158 grn RN bullets cast and loaded by trustees.

Funny thing about the reloads. The Capt saw them and asked if they were reloads, I said yes, adding there is nothing in the policy manual about reloads. His face got red and he tells me I will be back in 30 min with factory ammo, and if I wanted something in writing he would have it when I got back.

The Capt retired and I saw him at a gun show about six months later. He asked if I went back to reloads and I admitted I had. He says. "don't blame you, I carried them the whole time I was on the department".

When I started in 1979 we were only allowed to carry two speedloaders on the belt because of the chiefs likes and dislikes. The technique I'd learned to top of with speedloaders was to open the cylinder and tip the barrel up without pushing the ejector rod, the unfired rounds dropped out while the fired ones stayed in the gun. Then while you were putting the live rounds in your pocket, push the rod and let the empties fall to the ground. After that the loose rounds in the pocket could be used to top off.

The chief didn't know it, but I carried a couple of Bianchi Speed Strips in my pockets anyway.

Seriously? Trustees???? Not the township trustees but actual prisoner trustees????

One thing you quickly learn in the police bidness is that trustees are NOT trustworthy.......

Years ago I was keeping my Texas Peace Officer commission 'alive' at a Sheriff's Office in the Panhandle while I worked at a Dept. of Energy nuke storage plant. As a reserve deputy, me and a buddy would use the Sheriff's Office range quite a bit for shooting on our days off.

One day my buddy and I were walking past a white trailer that'd been set up as an office off to the side of the range and looked in out of curiosity, seeing that it was full of reloading equipment....and trustees doing the reloading. My reaction must've been priceless, my buddy starting laughing out loud.

Some months later, one of the two range masters that ran the range (one worked for the county, one for the local larger police dept) was overseeing a class that I was attending at that same range. During a break, this RM began complaining about how ****** Glock 21 .45's were, as he'd had a few of them 'blow up' on the range while the SWAT team was wringing them during training. He was firm in his opinion that it was the pistols that were the problem and would hear no other suggested possibilities, but my obvious thought was "DUH! You've got criminals loading your ammo, man!"

A trustee is just another jailed crook, but one that might think a few seconds longer than a non-trustee about stabbing you in the back...there is no more erroneously created descriptive word in the English language than "trustee". I have no doubt that those rounds were double or triple loaded along with a mumbled thought about those "#%$^#&*@ cops"...

Starting in 1975 I carried a model 19 (replaced with a Model 66 in 1977)in a Hoyt break front holster on a Safariland no buckle 2 1/2 inch sam brown belt. I carried HKS speed loaders, two in a conventional side by side pouch and two more in a vertical one from the top and one from the bottom pouch. I cried a J frame with a Bianchi speed strip in my pants pockets. In also had a Bucheimer flat sap in my right rear sap pocket in my pants. We carried the S&W mace dispenser for a while but found it only worked on cops. Most drunks and druggies got more violent when sprayed with it.

Back in 1976, we had clarino (shiny) leather. Dump pouches, cuff case, baton ring, key fob drop, mace(had just started being issued), holster with safety strap; portable radio is one was available and working, belt still had metal rings for a sam browne strap but we never were issued them for patrol, just honor guard wore them. As I mentioned in a previous thread, uniform pants had slapjack pocket on pants leg.

Required to furnish your own .38 revolver, department furnished Remington 125 grain JHP plus P ammo. The department was ahead of its time in that regard. Some of us bought our own ammo, like the issued stuff, and carried speed strips in a pants pocket. We also practiced with high priced stuff. It was noticeably hotter. Off duty, most used a Chief's special or similar revolver. I recalled quarterly qualifications, then every six months, yearly came later. Some of us shot a lot more, some never except qualifying.

However we qualified with low bid .38 wadcutter ammo, targets were scored. It was rumored a six pack or two was wagered by some on their score, of course, it was just a rumor.

I started out with a SW Model 15 and later carried a SW Model 66, both 4inch. Pacs went on the grips but kept the wood ones.

Drill was similar to those mentioned earlier, hold revolver in shooting had, thumb open the cylinder, middle two fingers pushing open the cylinder, thumb working the ejector rod, dump rounds with shooting hand, load, regrip revolver, push cylinder shut with thumb. Muscle memory has me using this when I shoot in matches even now. Some of the older shooters remarked, you used to be a cop too, yep, I says. A lot of departments must have taught a similar drill.

I have this one one in brown with an interesting basketweave. Came with handcuffs and appears to be for a 5" Colt Official Police. I had it for sale here once I think.

Hi:
Started in 1962 with three inch gun belt, cross draw holster, handcuff pouch, and a 12 round cartridge dump pouch. Soon after the agency sent me to a FBI training school and the first thing happened was the FBI trainers told me to get rid of the cross draw holster. I then used a Don Hume Jordan style holster, 2.5" river belt, handcuff pouch, a cartridge pouch with the snap openings top and bottom, 12 round cartridge loops. In the late 1960s I changed holster to a Buckeimer Federal Man holster (the first thumb safety strap ). Around 1972 I purchase a complete black basket weave Berns-Martin speed outfit.
All the before mentioned outfits were for 4" service revolvers. When I moved on the "N" Frame 6" service revolvers I went back to Jordan style Border Patrol outfit.

I use an old Buckeimer for an M&P that I carry a lot and love it. Retention is very good and the gun still comes out with little effort.



DW

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"NUTS"

I started in 1981 as a jail deputy and provided my own Bianchi 8L pancake holster for transport duty and off duty wear. Still have it in the holster drawer.
When I transferred to courts, I was issued a Sam Browne belt with a Jordan style holster made by BT Crump here in Richmond. Dump pouches were mandated for twelve extra rounds. No strips or speed loaders were allowed at first, but were allowed later at personal expense.
My last revolver rig before Austrian plastic was issued was the Gould and Goodrich security holster with a speed loader carrier on the gun side in front of the holster. Two speed strips in my shirt pockets and an Airweight Bodyguard went in the front pants pocket. I still have the rig. I bet that belt has shrunk considerably in the last thirty years....

I started in '69 with a swivel holster, with 12 cartridges loops attached to the belt slide portion of the holster. Didn't start using or even know about speed loaders until 1974 when I started carrying two rubber Kel Fire speed loaders. Started using Safariland speed loaders in 1976. Still use Safariland and Bianchi speed strips.

I started in76 and had a 6inch 19 in first a Safety Speed break front ( like a Bianchi 27, and soon after a Hoyt break front swivel. Do people boxes and two cuff cases at rear. Baton loop and radio case on weak side. Moved agencies and had 4 inch 19, Hoytbreamfront boarder patrol and belt with 12 loops off side and speed loaders strong side. Changed holsters to Safariland highridein the mid 80s.

One thing to keep in mind is by asking here you are getting skewed input from gun guys. Asking what was in typical use either in general, or especially at a specific time period would yield different answers.

( Keeping in mind that back then lots of depts had more lattitude for personally owned gear than today.) Gun guys were early adoptors of advances that 10yrs or so to become issued / in common use by non-enthusiasts. Being into guns at tender age, I always scoped out the gun and gear of LE.

There were probably regional variations, but took until the very end of the '70s for true thumbreaks to be predominate. Likewise speedloaders weren't issued until the '80s, but individual use had been steadily growing since mid '70s until the majority were using them.

My County PD ( large & dominant agency) issued Sam Browne belt had 12 ctg loops sewn on to the belt on/ in front of left hip. Even pre-speedloader, most ofc had a different means of carrying ammo, usually some form dump pouch. Most Ofc ignored the loops. But maybe 1/4 carried rounds in the loops in addition to the others.

The county issued NYPD Jaypee pushbuttom holsters, with swivel. At least 2/3 of Ofc used somthing else, in wide variety. In uniform didn't see much high ride. Mostly ranged from medium ride to Border Patrol-ish to swivel. At the end of the revolver era, county issued the S&W Safety holster.

The other question not asked, was that in early '70 had near equal mix of 4in and 6in revolvers. 4 inch gradually increased in popularity until by the '80s the few six inchers were noticably u usual.

In my region, basketweave wasn't common, near equal split between plain black and Clarino.

So for the OP, he could use pretty much any combination of holster and ammo carrier and be plausibly authentic. The late '70s could almost be treated as a seperate era from 1940-1975. Speedloaders, thumbreaks generally, and high ride thumbreaks in particularly would be representive of late '70s. Break Front holsters predating the S&W Safety Holster , seem to be more of a West Coast thing. Basketweave was more popular in the South and out West. Before stainless became widespread, nickle guns for uniform wear were most popular in the South.

Circa 1976, I believe it was a Don Hume. Worn with a 12 loop belt slide, handcuff case and a baton ring.

I did this also. The dump pouches were worn snap upwards and upon opening snap the whole dump pouch pivoted upside down on a leather hinge allowing one to pull the speed strips out assisted by gravity, or dump loose rounds the same way. Mine was Boston Leather.