Dave Baird - Not necessarily. In that particular series of numbers that
I mentioned, it may be right. And -db- is almost always right. But that
doesn't mean the same logic applies to all of BC's fit numbers.
Around 1982 I purchased a Bucheimer Clarke Should Holster model 15E-16. I purchased it for a S & W 357 Magnum. The holster is clearly marked 15E-16, but I cannot find any information, including this and other forums, that have this model number. Specifically, I am wondering what the E indicates? I found some lists that included an F in the model number. I appreciate any information you can provide. Thanks in advance.
========================
UPDATE: My last guess was the correct one. E for elastic strap.
Circa 1980, the now "Series 15" shoulder holster has a web non-elastic strap while the "Series 15E" shoulder holster has an elastic strap.
A new to us 1980 catalog has the term "series" attached to each holster model. Still learning.
That doesn't solve the mystery for the E on the German police holster unless it was originally accompanied by some sort of elastic strap.
========================
Another "Don't know" answer. I even asked the Boss. Poster's holster is not the first E marked model 15 shoulder holster observed. Note also post 126 with the possible German police holster has an E suffix.
Letters are used to features such as color [B, R], finish [W, F], lining [L] or left handed [LH]. But what could E indicate? Anybody have later catalogs than the rest of us??
The E might be something special in the Bucheimer-Clark holsters that have turned up post 1980 when B-C was thought to have ended operations.
Ads for a Texas police equipment company using the B-C name with the C inside the B logo - like a scope recticle - have turned up leading to a question of whether that company made/sold B-C holsters. That's on top of the Clark, Anaheim, Thompson-Clark and Clark, Cochella enigma's.
One wild guess building on the German police holster is that the E might stand for Europe = production intended for the overseas market. But why bother with a marking for that unless perhaps signifying compliance with some Byzantine regulation?
Other guesses: E might stand for an economy model or E for an optional elastic off-side strap rather than the standard nylon web or leather multi-piece contraption.
I hope that clears everything up.....
=============================
On the first page, I added more to explain JMB and B-C holster marking systems.
From the 1976 catalog, as with S&W Wessonhide, Bucheimer's version of synthetic leather ---
Buc-Hide.
A man-made material — will not crack, peel,
scuff, mildew or become stiff or brittle at low
temperatures. All BUC-HIDE products are made
for 1 3/4” belt.
Brown BUC-HIDE is backed with sueded strap leather.
Also available in black.
For Black, place “B” in front of Model Number.
===============
The two digit code (after the dash for each item) follows the standard Bucheimer system. 11 = Chief Special, etc.
A couple of days ago I stumbled upon a Holster with codes I could not find by means of the usual search, it's this
under the number "42" in the first page of this thread I found a Clark allegedly made between 1962 and 1975, designed for Colt Agent, Detective Special and Cobra which seems plausible to me because the snubby on the pictures hangs a little loose in it.
What puzzles me and I could not find out is the meaning of the first three digits "138".
Also the designation "Defender" is not to be found...anyone knows more?
My BC Sheriff marked 11 for Chief Special is way too large for a Chief and is about Colt size. Mismarked probably in this case. Often holsters have stretched over the years from use or have been intentionally fit to another handgun.
The BT and Deluxe lines appear to indicate an effort to produce a higher quality tier, perhaps to replace the nicer holsters from Bucheimer-Clark that would soon end.
Since late Clark & Thompson holsters have been found with BT markings, it seems a fair guess that the BT line stands for Bucheimer Thompson. The Sam Brown holsters have the curved line at the ejector rod previously thought unique to Thompson. (I know, we're only 45 years late to the party, but it's new to us.)
The BT holster in the catalog is the same as the BTW holster in the 1976 ad previously posted on page 3.
And then, Deluxe means ...deluxe. Prices, if we had them, would be a further indicator.
The model 3 is another thumb snap holster with a paddle variation with the 400 and 500 being spring-post holsters for auto pistols.
The only shoulder holsters in 1976 are an upside-down and a 1930's style vertical notable for repeating the 500 model number.
The model 15 forward rake Estes holster is surely named for Captain E.W. Estes who wrote a well known report advocating the adoption of the Colt .45 Auto for police. Recommended by Jeff Cooper, it is similar to holsters from Safariland, Bianchi, and by TripleK, the Elden Carl model.
I have made revisions & additions to several posts and to the master fit code list on the first page.
Bucheimer and Bucheimer-Clark master fit code list - 2021
I ran out of room, so here is the latest pdf of the complete fit code list - which includes notes about Clark and Thompson and Thompson-Clark and the other Clark. And then also the single page chart from the 1971 catalog.
Couldn't they have done that every year!!??
Last edited by SG-688; 07-14-2022 at 11:33 PM.
Reason: slight update with latest 2022 list
Here's a holster some questioned was actually made - the classic B-C model 15 shoulder holster for an auto pistol - in this case fit code 74 for the Colt Commander pistol.
The LA mark preceded Valencia, indicating early production.
At the time I took the pictures, the only issue was the fit of the holster, so I didn't take a picture of the marking. -- added picture --
The fit is not good, and would be better if the sewn section fit under the slide instead of on top of the slide. The strongest point of contact is on the grips.
The screw does its job of adjusting the clamping force of the spring - but interferes with the pistol. It was darn difficult the get the pistol into the holster. Better probably on a revolver or perhaps when worn. The rest of the harness is missing, so couldn't test that.
The holster body is sewn to the harness rather than laced as on later versions.
Last edited by SG-688; 12-20-2021 at 06:33 PM.
Reason: added photo
I have inherited a BUCHEIMER CLARK shoulder holster and despite my best efforts can’t match the numbers stamped on it with any in the listed catalogues. It says 15-85. It also is LH. Any help with interpretation and as to what model fun this fits would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by GEARHEAD4EVER; 02-27-2022 at 07:38 PM.
I have inherited a BUCHEIMER CLARK shoulder holster and despite my best efforts can’t match the numbers stamped on it with any in the listed catalogues. It says 15-85. It also is LH. Any help with interpretation and as to what model fun this fits would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I've never seen a 15-85. The 15 refers to the holster being a shoulder holster. The 85 is for the type of handgun.
I have inherited a BUCHEIMER CLARK shoulder holster and despite my best efforts can’t match the numbers stamped on it with any in the listed catalogues. It says 15-85. It also is LH. Any help with interpretation and as to what model fun this fits would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Why don't you post a pic, so that the experts here can better make their guess?
I'm interested myself because I also had this issue a couple of times, they say it's all searchable but I don't find anything, recently with 2 clark yaquis with two different numbers but both stated for the same gun...
I have inherited a BUCHEIMER CLARK shoulder holster and despite my best efforts can’t match the numbers stamped on it with any in the listed catalogues. It says 15-85. It also is LH. Any help with interpretation and as to what model fun this fits would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Confirming 15 as number used by B-C as a shoulder holster model number.
Other information in the stamp, mainly location, can indicate the time frame the holster was made. LA, Valencia, etc.
As to the fit code 85..... No, we don't have an 85 in the fit code list.
84 and 86 are 4 inch and 6 inch N frame magnum S&W revolvers.
85 for a 5 inch N frame would fit the general Bucheimer and Bucheimer-Clark number progression.
And then, none of the catalogs we have show numbers for Ruger DA or Dan Wesson revolvers even though both were made during the catalog years we have. Don't have any idea why not. We're eager for more late 70's and 1980's catalogs.
85 might be for a Ruger or a DW - or something else - but at the moment I'd bet on 5 inch S&W.
As always, there's a lot of art in interpreting the fit code with duplicate and repeating numbers used over the years and with different holster models. A CTL-F search can have several hits - or none - or hit gun model numbers.
Confirming 15 as number used by B-C as a shoulder holster model number.
Other information in the stamp, mainly location, can indicate the time frame the holster was made. LA, Valencia, etc.
As to the fit code 85..... No, we don't have an 85 in the fit code list.
84 and 86 are 4 inch and 6 inch N frame magnum S&W revolvers.
85 for a 5 inch N frame would fit the general Bucheimer and Bucheimer-Clark number progression.
And then, none of the catalogs we have show numbers for Ruger DA or Dan Wesson revolvers even though both were made during the catalog years we have. Don't have any idea why not. We're eager for more late 70's and 1980's catalogs.
85 might be for a Ruger or a DW - or something else - but at the moment I'd bet on 5 inch S&W.
As always, there's a lot of art in interpreting the fit code with duplicate and repeating numbers used over the years and with different holster models. A CTL-F search can have several hits - or none - or hit gun model numbers.
Craig
I think you are right the 85 is for a 5 inch N frame. Model 15 holsters for 5 inch N frames are quite rare. I've seen two on the big auction site in the last 15 years or so and both went for $1000 - $1500 if I remember right.
A piece of trivia. A 5 inch model 15 shoulder holster was used in the first Dirty Harry movie. Harry's 6.5 inch Model 29 doesn't quite fit in the holster in scenes where it is shown.
The "5 inch holster with a 6-1/2 inch revolver" is a tale concocted by Jerry Ardolino who was not even THERE when the films were made (as he makes clear in his own book though he implies otherwise in his various writings, he was in Chi Town in uniform instead). All his other claims are hyperbole, why not this one, too?
In the movie you can see Harry's gun is not fully seated in the holster in several scenes.
In the movie you can see Harry's gun is not fully seated in the holster in several scenes.
Exactly; not fully seated. Doesn't look like 1.5" off the mark to me, though. A friend recently attempted to fully seat his revolver in the early Bucheimer-Clark No. 15 with the post/screw assembly and failed. So we must consider that the Ardolino tale is apocryphal; he was not there, he does not know, so we must use our own intellects to spread news we're sure of.
Exactly; not fully seated. Doesn't look like 1.5" off the mark to me, though. A friend recently attempted to fully seat his revolver in the early Bucheimer-Clark No. 15 with the post/screw assembly and failed. So we must consider that the Ardolino tale is apocryphal; he was not there, he does not know, so we must use our own intellects to spread news we're sure of.
Here's a holster some questioned was actually made - the classic B-C model 15 shoulder holster for an auto pistol - in this case fit code 74 for the Colt Commander pistol.
The LA mark preceded Valencia, indicating early production.
At the time I took the pictures, the only issue was the fit of the holster, so I didn't take a picture of the marking. -- added picture --
The fit is not good, and would be better if the sewn section fit under the slide instead of on top of the slide. The strongest point of contact is on the grips.
The screw does its job of adjusting the clamping force of the spring - but interferes with the pistol. It was darn difficult the get the pistol into the holster. Better probably on a revolver or perhaps when worn. The rest of the harness is missing, so couldn't test that.
The holster body is sewn to the harness rather than laced as on later versions.
It is Ardolino who has claimed the No. 15 was not made for the autos until he personally 'fixed it'. As if. This one for the 45 automatic (even the Commander didn't exist in Ed Clark's time) is so-marked as Clark Holster, the company that originated the No. 15 and whose successor, Bucheimer-Clark, appeared with it from 1959. So, plausibly as old as Clark's 1929 patent . .
Way back in the late 1970s my Dad had a S&W Combat Magnum. He let
me shoot it, so I had to have one. So, it wasn't long before I had one too.
I bought 2 Lawman Leather shoulder holsters from Jerry Ardolino a few
years later. One for my Dad and one for myself. I still have mine, shown
below with my Model 67 Combat Masterpiece.
Ardolino still advertises in his web site, calling it "the real original Dirty
Harry", and "Beware of imitations". How does he get away with that?
I had to replace my shoulder pad. Otherwise still in pretty good shape.
Not a lot of use.
Exactly; not fully seated. Doesn't look like 1.5" off the mark to me, though. A friend recently attempted to fully seat his revolver in the early Bucheimer-Clark No. 15 with the post/screw assembly and failed. So we must consider that the Ardolino tale is apocryphal; he was not there, he does not know, so we must use our own intellects to spread news we're sure of.
The holster does look thoroughly sprung, for the benefit of its use in the films perhaps.
And this is the great big gob of interference with the revolver's muzzle, that's built into the B-C No. 15 version that was used in the Dirty Harry films. So -- not amenable to an actor holstering his big Magnum with less than the greatest of care and effort:
The No. 15 was reconfigured to become the No. 15L, the "L" appearing to indicated 'lined' which it was/is. This new configuration did more than eliminate the post and screw assembly that shows on the outside of the holster. It also moved the covering for the spring from the inside where it was a form of lining itself, to the outside.
The spring then would've changed from being held tightly by the post and screw to create spring tension, to supplying its own tension as a torsion spring. Some retention would have been lost, too, because the ledge of stiff leather that inhibited the fluted cylinder was now gone; moved the the outside as an ornamental feature.
Ardolino did worse than that in later years. While the holster was being made for his company by Bucheimer-Clark the new spring was machine-made and was tempered. Today he uses a length of wire in his holster that has been laid inside the holster layers while it is flat and untempered, then bends the holster and spring assembly into a folded holster. No spring action!
My testing demonstrated that the Dirty Harry holster made today in this way will not retain an M29 against simply falling out.
Ardolino did worse than that in later years. While the holster was being made for his company by Bucheimer-Clark the new spring was machine-made and was tempered. Today he uses a length of wire in his holster that has been laid inside the holster layers while it is flat and untempered, then bends the holster and spring assembly into a folded holster. No spring action!
My testing demonstrated that the Dirty Harry holster made today in this way will not retain an M29 against simply falling out.
I did not know this. Makes the holster...worthless
Howdy, fellow Smith and Wesson fans! Long time lurker, first time poster here! This thread was the motivation I needed to finally make an account and interact with you fine folks, which I know is long overdue.
Would anyone be able to help me identify this Bucheimer shoulder holster? It is stamped 01 914 with no other notations. I combed through the pdf, but I can't seem to find anything like that number or format. Any help at all would be much appreciated.
Thank you in advance, gents. Looking forward to getting to know the usual suspects here and contributing where I can. Cheers!
Howdy, fellow Smith and Wesson fans! Long time lurker, first time poster here! This thread was the motivation I needed to finally make an account and interact with you fine folks, which I know is long overdue.
Would anyone be able to help me identify this Bucheimer shoulder holster? It is stamped 01 914 with no other notations. I combed through the pdf, but I can't seem to find anything like that number or format. Any help at all would be much appreciated.
Thank you in advance, gents. Looking forward to getting to know the usual suspects here and contributing where I can. Cheers!
It is J.M. Bucheimer's direct knockoff of the Bianchi X-15. That makes it ideal for the 5" 1911 and a K frame 4" will also fit.
Would anyone be able to help me identify this Bucheimer shoulder holster? It is stamped 01 914 with no other notations. I combed through the pdf, but I can't seem to find anything like that number or format. ....
To assist others reading the chart and deciphering 01 914..
The first two digits denote the type of product.
01 = holsters
02 = belts
03 = clubs and saps
04 = ammunition and magazine carriers
The second series of digits indicate the holster model.
The third series of digits indicate the holster size code.
So it's a holster with the model number 914 from the 1980's era that we still have not well documented.
Why no third set of digits? We can only guess. Perhaps a universal fit.
As noted elsewhere, this is a continuing work in progress. It's gone on so long that I am in the classic position of having forgotten more than I'll ever know - or something like that. I have to look again each time I go back. Credit to the many who have contributed especially Red Nichols and John Witty. (Buy their book!!)
Craig SG-688
How to read Bucheimer and Bucheimer-Clark holster codes:
Generally the first numbers and letters stamped on the back of the holster designate the model of the holster; the numbers after the dash designate the size. Letter prefixes and suffixes indicate options, such as color - if different than brown - black [B] russet [R], lining [L], floral carving [F], basket stamping [W], left hand [LH], and a new discovery - [E] for elastic straps.
With a few exceptions, this is not a chart of model numbers. Too many for that. The chart is searchable for the fit number.
To find what handgun fits a holster, search only for the numbers after the dash. A few exceptions, like the Hank Sloan and Pacemaker, may not have a dash and require letters and/or numbers in addition to the numbers for the correct search result.
AND THEN -- the fit code numbers are not unique. The same number may appear with several different handguns depending upon the era and the model of holster. Inference may be required. A large holster for a handgun with a long barrel probably does not fit a Chief Special.
.
Hi everybody...I found this, it's supposed to come from the hamburger police and yes, it is a concealer. But I can't find the number 81 anywhere in the lists. My guess is a Sig Sauer P225, can anyone enlighten me? Here the pic:
thus my guess of the hamburger police, for which the Holster might have been a customized order.
This could be the reason why it is not listed in the official charts, but I already know some guns that fit in it because I tried out a few and the Holster seems to be an all- eater. To find out for which gun it is specifically designed for, it would be helpful to know the years in which it has been manufactured.
It would be then easy to check which was the duty gun in Hamburg at that time. Here some pics for your interest guys:
A 1980's magazine article that I saved says P6 for Hamburg.
The "crosshair" B symbol is a 1980's mark.
Everything in the Bucheimer saga mid to late 80's got really mixed up.
I'll put down 81 tentatively as a designation for Sig!!
Thanks for the useful info, P6 is actually the police version of the P225, only slightly modified. Unfortunately further information is (as far as i know) available in German only:
Both J.M. Bucheimer and Bucheimer-Clark made the Concealer by the end of the two companies' tenures 1983 or so. It was the latter that prefixed the number with 'C' for "concealer" and the former that used one of their scrambled numberings and the name 'Concealer'.
By the end of the '70s the two companies were in disarray that went beyond the '78 death of the Tandy boss. And from then on one needs a roadmap, which I have, to unscramble it all.
I added the 1980 information to the master list and replaced the list in a couple of places the pdf is attached to a post.
I inserted new designations into the list. It got a little complicated, so if I've made any mistakes, please tell me so I can correct them.
The major change is that the 1980 list included Taurus and Ruger DA Security/Speed/Service 6 revolvers in the S&W frame size lists. Rather than add Taurus and/or Ruger to every number code, I simply wrote a note like this one.
Attaching latest - 2024 - version of the list here too.
Here we go again, this is a Bucheimer that obviously fits old Goofy (shooters call the historic 1911 that way here in Krautland) but I'd like to know a bit more if possible.
It appears to be a military target style sling M1907 popular early-mid last century. Slings usually aren't made for specific rifles. Sometimes you need to match a sling to swivels but this isn't the case. The leather goes through the swivels. That sling would look nice on many rifles. Dollars to donuts it was bought for a M1 Garand.
It appears to be a military target style sling M1907 popular early-mid last century. Slings usually aren't made for specific rifles. Sometimes you need to match a sling to swivels but this isn't the case. The leather goes through the swivels. That sling would look nice on many rifles. Dollars to donuts it was bought for a M1 Garand.
Our Canadian friend found this Bucheimer holster with the fit code 87 that we've not identified. It's a dual-loop thumb-snap belt holster with the 1980's code system. Holster model number 222 ...is new...too.
01 for holster. 222 for the model number and 87 for the fit code.
The S&W pistol is shown but is clearly not correct. Current guess is that the strap over the back of the grip is made that way because the intended pistol slide has a slanted rear that would not hold the strap. One example would be the HK P9, but we're not yet ready to pencil in that ID.
Another from our Canadian friend: the Bucheimer Nassau model police holster that I understand was designed and named for the Nassau County, New York police.
Of course, by this point all members will recognize immediately that 34W signifies a basketweave holster for a 4 inch K frame S&W revolver with adjustable sights.
Our Canadian friend found this Bucheimer holster with the fit code 87 that we've not identified. It's a dual-loop thumb-snap belt holster with the 1980's code system. Holster model number 222 ...is new...too.
01 for holster. 222 for the model number and 87 for the fit code.
The S&W pistol is shown but is clearly not correct. Current guess is that the strap over the back of the grip is made that way because the intended pistol slide has a slanted rear that would not hold the strap. One example would be the HK P9, but we're not yet ready to pencil in that ID.
Unfamiliar model, unfamiliar fitment mark? Logic tells us this then is from the final Bucheimer years that began circa 1980. It is my theory that any Bucheimer with that particular marks is from that era until it closed up.
Immediately prior to that mark I believe their mark looked like this one shown at upper left of the J.M.B. catalog for '76:1976 j.m. bucheimer.jpg
Those who should know the most about Bucheimer's final years ain't sayin' one way or the other.
I bought this Bucheimer model 3952 canvas & leather rifle case from a retired state trooper. Model 39 case for scoped rifles in 52 inch length.
In the 70's - before SWAT - he was a designated rifleman with an issued Winchester M-70 in '06. I'd like to think he packed that rifle in this case. (Probably not, but I'll ask next time.)
The 1971 catalog had 9 pages of gun cases and scabbards. $18.98 for the #39 case; the carry handle is the #243 sling that was $3 by itself.
The similar case in rough-out leather was $24.98 with the next steps in smooth leather being $39.98 and $67.50.
The trim and sling are the nicest pieces of leather I've ever seen with the Bucheimer stamp!
For all of you eager to know what that case in your closet is designed to hold, the fit chart is from the 1976 catalog. I attached the chart in jpg and pdf; use whichever works best for you.
thus my guess of the hamburger police, for which the Holster might have been a customized order.
This could be the reason why it is not listed in the official charts, but I already know some guns that fit in it because I tried out a few and the Holster seems to be an all- eater. To find out for which gun it is specifically designed for, it would be helpful to know the years in which it has been manufactured.
It would be then easy to check which was the duty gun in Hamburg at that time. Here some pics for your interest guys:
The guns are, in order of appearance:
- ISSC M22
- Sig Sauer P225 (probably the "right" one)
- Sig Sauer P226
- Beretta 92 F
Ranxerox re the tan Bucheimer Consealer holster you have that has the Hamburg seal and stamped C-81 I am certain it was intended for the Sig P-220 and the Browning BDA. I recently purchased a Bucheimer black holster off Ebay marked B 01 004 81 and it fits both the early non rail P-220/P-226. From the appearance the prior owner was using it for a P-225/P-6 which would fit but has a shorter barrel. My holster isn't marked Consealer and differers slightly from your holster, suspect it was mfg in the mid 1980s. The black Bucheimer holster you have appears to be correct for the P-6/P-225.
Can anyone help identify this holster, please?
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