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View Poll Results: Di your instructor tell you to buy a gunbelt?
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:39 PM
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Default How many of you instructors teach this?

I attended a "spoken word" poetic reading tonight. The seating was set up theatre style on a stair-stepped floor. There were about 60 people in the audience. Just before the lights were dimmed I noticed that the guy two rows in front of me was having great difficulty keeping his gun concealed. He was wearing a vest as his cover garment and the gun keep flopping and coming from under the vest. He untucked his shirt in an effort to help, but that only worked until he twisted the wrong way and the gun was (unbeknown to him) exposed once more. I don't think anyone but me noticed though. When he went to stand up the gun hooked under the back of the folding chair! I felt for the guy and found myself wondering if I should discreetly ask him if he was wearing a gun belt, but decided against it.

This got me to wondering: How many of you firearms instructors who teach classes for people getting concealed pistol licenses actually TELL THEM ABOUT GETTING A GUN BELT? And for those of you who are NOT instructors, did you learn it in class or on your own?

My instructor did mention:
Don't buy a cheap gun
Buy extra magazines
Use only premium jacketed hollow point defensive ammo
.38 or 9mm was his "floor" on defensive carry caliber.....

HE MADE NO MENTION OF GUNBELTS OR BUYING GOOD HOLSTERS! That knowledge was acquired on my own in the course of reading and further training.

Perhaps you all might want to add that to your course?
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Old 04-19-2015, 12:09 AM
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This is a good point. I talk to my students about good and proper holsters but I never have specifically talked about the belt. I will be updating my lesson plans to include the subject.
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Old 04-19-2015, 10:01 AM
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I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.

When my son received his CC license I bought him a IWB holster made by Bell Charter Oaks (forum member) and a Wilderness Tactical belt.
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Old 04-19-2015, 10:20 AM
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Learned about hosters and belts the hard way, trial and error. Only in recent years have we had more than one place to shop and/or ask. The one we did have only wanted to sell Glocks and nylon holsters.
No mention of holsters or belts in CPL class.
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Old 04-19-2015, 10:56 AM
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My CHL Instructor had a whole section on 'Dressing to Conceal'. He talked about different types of Holsters, Belts and Deep conceal wear (thunderwear & Holster Ts, etc). He emphasized how a good belt makes IWB/OWB much easier to control.

For demonstrative purposes, he had more than 6 pistols/revolvers concealed on various parts of his body. His attire was Office Casual Slacks & Polo.
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Old 04-19-2015, 11:05 AM
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I include holsters AND BELTS, including level 2 holsters for those that wish to open carry, and have examples of the basic types.
My NRA training counselor set a good example in conducting his NRA instructor courses.

Having taught for the Air Force and in college classes, I was well versed in the value of lesson plans, and how to use them. For example, the Oklahoma CLEET lesson plan includes carry gear as a specific topic, so why do some instructors NOT include it?

Unfortunately, I have met some great "shooting experts" who toss the lesson plan in their bag and impress the audience with their skills, which are considerable, but fail to convey needed information to the class. Some of them are very popular and highly paid.
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Old 04-19-2015, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerpat View Post
I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.
Not to hijack ..... but just to say there are so many options out there today because of the internet (and this Forum) vs. when I started carrying in 78.

Took about 6 months or a year to find a Bianchi B12 for evenings and weekends..... one of the reasons I carried a PPK IWB (read about Milt Sparks in some "Gun Rag" and took a chance) was the difficulty in finding a good dress gun-belt to use with a suit.

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Old 04-19-2015, 11:36 AM
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You didn't say in what position the gent was carrying, but as it got stuck under the chair back, I am envisioning a small of back or behind the hip arrangement with the pants worn way too low, thereby allowing the gun barrel to conform to the "natural curvature" which would cause the top end of the weapon to "ride out" from the body instead of flat when standing.

The belt is important, but the guy needs to get pants with a longer waist, or pull his existing pants up. Having a heavier belt while still wearing the weapon too low on the waist will not really fix the problem.

Dress for carry, not for fashion. That lesson is at least as important as the issue of a proper belt.
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Old 04-19-2015, 11:50 AM
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Default The Handgun "System."

I always taught that the handgun, extra ammunition, belt, holster, handcuffs (if applicable) and outer and under garments are all part of a team I called the handgun system. Everything must be working correctly to maximize safety, comfort, handgun security against loss or an attempted takeaway and concealment.

This became evident when we engaged in handgun retention exercises based upon the Lindell Method. We had several students whose worn and cracked dress belts broke at the buckle during a takeaway maneuver.

As others have correctly said, don't buy a $600.00 gun, a $100.00 holster, then sling it on an imitation leather belt.

Why undergarments? It's simple. When wearing an IWB holster, you don't want the gun directly against your skin, which is uncomfortable and allows acidic perspiration to attack the gun. Avoid abbreviated undergarments when using an IWB holster.

Mexican carry? Don't even think about it in my class.

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Old 04-19-2015, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rangerpat View Post
I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.

When my son received his CC license I bought him a IWB holster made by Bell Charter Oaks (forum member) and a Wilderness Tactical belt.
A lot of people who take a CCW class are not "gun nuts". they are not as knowledgeable as you are. They have to be taught these things. I've been through many holsters and several belts. If the ccw instructor doesn't help who will?

Having work in an LGS I found that you have a tendency to assume everyone who comes in looking for a self defense gun knows what they need and has or will get the proper accessories. You have too many regulars who do. That is mostly not the case and you miss a chance to help in that regard. I know I've been guilty of that offense and for that I apologize.

Also most people are very reluctant to spend something over $100 to carry a gun they're only going to carry occasionally. Again they have to be taught. I've sold several holster by simply showing the customer what I was carrying.

This can all be summed up by saying that the average ccw student needs to be taught and that teaching starts with the instructor and/or his assistant. I've been through two ccw classes. The first instructor mentioned nothing about holster or belts. The second did.

Rant over.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:34 PM
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I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.
If they don't know better and nobody teaches them, how can they be blamed?
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:47 PM
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I've taken a few classes over the years and can't recall any instructors discussing proper holsters and/or belts. Of course, most of those courses were shooting/qualification courses that didn't require drawing and weren't specifically for concealed carry.

One of the last classes I took was for my carry permit a few years ago. That instructor did mention things to consider, like belt carry can be faster than pocket carry, and demonstrated concealment by revealing he was carrying a belt gun, 2 pocket guns, and an ankle gun, but nothing specifically about how to select carry gear. Everything I learned about "carry systems" came from gun magazines and, more recently, the interwebs.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:00 PM
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I was one of the first accreditated CCW Instructors in Clark County, NV. I was a LEO Firearms Instructor prior to instructing civilians. I told every class that they had to determine how they were going to tote and make available their choice of handguns. I showed every class various holsters, belts and concealment purses. My recommendation always was to support the holster with a very well built belt. My recommendation was/is a double layer leather belt sewn together, not glued. I required them to come to the qualification shooting exercise with a proper holster. I understand that today they allow the shooter to walk to the firing line with the handgun in hand and to load out of pockets. I never would have allowed that. My wife and I practice drawing/presentation from exactly how we carry concealed. She draws from a very well make concealment purse and I draw from a IWB concealed holster. My belt is a double layer cowhide that was double sewn and is 1 3/4" wide. There are good well made substantial belts out there that look good even when worn on dress pants. Anything else is a waste of time and can be an endangerment. ...........
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:06 PM
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A good belt is a necessity for training and carry purposes alike. IMO it doesn't need to be a "gun belt" but you want the thickest leather/hide belt you can find that's at least 1.5 inch. I use a 20 dollar belt from tractor supply. Good way to check a belt is just fasten it hold it up and see how much it flexs stiffer the better.

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Old 04-19-2015, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
You didn't say in what position the gent was carrying, but as it got stuck under the chair back, I am envisioning a small of back or behind the hip arrangement with the pants worn way too low, thereby allowing the gun barrel to conform to the "natural curvature" which would cause the top end of the weapon to "ride out" from the body instead of flat when standing.

The belt is important, but the guy needs to get pants with a longer waist, or pull his existing pants up. Having a heavier belt while still wearing the weapon too low on the waist will not really fix the problem.

Dress for carry, not for fashion. That lesson is at least as important as the issue of a proper belt.
He was carrying at 5:00, and it was an all black revolver. Beyond that I can't say the model number. He "appeared" to have his belt high enough, but the grip was ENTIRELY outside of his untucked shirt AND fleece vest.

My guess is that he was wearing a standard width dress belt (1")...and the holster just rotated on it.

Obviously, he hadn't been taught the importance of a good carry "system". My purpose in starting this thread was to address the issue and hopefully inspire instructors to revise their lesson plans if it doesn't include holsters AND belts.
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Old 04-19-2015, 07:17 PM
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If they don't know better and nobody teaches them, how can they be blamed?
This is one reason I became an instructor; none of the classes I went to taught this stuff. Not to mention marksmanship, or gun fit, or defensive shooting or...

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I required them to come to the qualification shooting exercise with a proper holster. I understand that today they allow the shooter to walk to the firing line with the handgun in hand and to load out of pockets. I never would have allowed that.
I understand the logic behind this, but how do you make it work? I mean, I spend at least an hour talking about holsters. There are certain criteria that a holster must have in order to be used for carry. How will they know what to buy if they haven't been through the class yet?

I ask all my students to bring a holster. However, if they don't have one, I tell them not to buy one until they go through the class. Why have them buy the wrong holster just to turn around and get another? We can run a safe range even if they don't have a holster. No shooting from the holster unless they've been taught by me or a school I recognize.

When I started, I wasn't teaching about the belt. I have since corrected the error of my ways. Now I demonstrate the importance of a good belt.

Further, this is the only area where a person really can spend a little and still get a good belt. I use the Uncle Mike's Reinforced Instructor's belt. These can be had for $25-$35 depending on the sale you find. Even though they are inexpensive, they are not cheaply made. They have a polymer insert that makes them the stiffest belt I've ever used.

The timing of this thread is interesting. I have a Fusion Type E belt sitting on my desk as I type this. Ordered it on line and never even tried it on. Flimsier than a wet noodle. I spent about $45 for it. Whatever you do, DON'T BUY THIS BELT! It's absolutely **** for concealed carry. I thought I'd try something different. Yeah, why fix what ain't broke? Live and learn.
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Old 04-19-2015, 10:12 PM
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The timing of this thread is interesting. I have a Fusion Type E belt sitting on my desk as I type this. Ordered it on line and never even tried it on. Flimsier than a wet noodle. I spent about $45 for it. Whatever you do, DON'T BUY THIS BELT! It's absolutely **** for concealed carry. I thought I'd try something different. Yeah, why fix what ain't broke? Live and learn.
Thanks for the tip on the belt. Not that I'm in the market for one, but it's nice to know what to avoid. I have two belts for carry; one black (a Galco), and one brown (5.11 Tactical). Both had to be suitable for dress wear, so canvas or instructors belts are "out". When I first started carrying, not knowing any better, I had a browning hi power on my regular dress belt. Can you imagine what that must have felt like?
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:59 PM
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A proper holster and belt is almost as important as the weapon.
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Old 05-18-2015, 04:00 PM
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I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.

When my son received his CC license I bought him a IWB holster made by Bell Charter Oaks (forum member) and a Wilderness Tactical belt.
Guys;

The day is near perhaps, when all you may have to select in the way of concealment holsters are made from recycled soda bottles, foam rubber, nylon and offer absurdly oversized platforms that purport to be "comfortable" and "concealable". They are inexpensive, no doubt, they are in stock and ready to ship, they are convenient too. Roll over to Wally World or the local gun shop for a quick fix. They will usually hold the weapon, no doubt there too, most often.

I offer no criticism. I do offer skepticism. I will match any holster I make (or those of a dozen other custom leather makers) against any of that cheap trade. Priceline is the bottom line, and we now see traditional factory leather holster makers cashing in on that and adjusting to market demand for plastics and synthetics for polymer frame hi cap pistols and revolvers.

I believe there will always be a market for fine quality gunleather but the lousy economy has championed cheaper alternatives. Just my view.

Cheers;
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Old 05-18-2015, 04:01 PM
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This is a good point. I talk to my students about good and proper holsters but I never have specifically talked about the belt. I will be updating my lesson plans to include the subject.
I agree - it's time I made an issue out of this.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:11 PM
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I have been fortunate enough to be able to teach some of our firearms in-services this year. It is a great time to stress the importance of a good belt and holster for off-duty and plainclothes carry.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post

My instructor did mention:
Don't buy a cheap gun
Buy extra magazines
Use only premium jacketed hollow point defensive ammo
.38 or 9mm was his "floor" on defensive carry caliber.....

HE MADE NO MENTION OF GUNBELTS OR BUYING GOOD HOLSTERS! That knowledge was acquired on my own in the course of reading and further training.

Perhaps you all might want to add that to your course?
Sounds like he made no mention of REVOLVERS either.

I agree with federali, no one item makes for concealment. Nor does any one style.

On my Monday nights, I make recommendations on purses since it is a women's shooting club.

Just as I keep an inventory of training firearms, I have an inventory of leather holsters, belts, pouches and even purses to use in the classroom session of a CCW course. And yes there are Bell Charter Oak representatives in that inventory. There is nothing better than being able to pass examples around the classroom.
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:15 PM
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Mine told about one of his agents bragging about his new thigh holster.
The instructor told him to show it to him, and the guy had to drop his pants to reveal it LOL
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:41 PM
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I'm on a lot of holster related forums, and threads about belts are common. And this is the only good one I've seen! Other forums have gone overboard about wide, stiff belts, when a well-designed holster only needs a belt that fits the holster loops, and the trousers loops. Finis, that's all there is to it. It's when the holster is not done well, that the belt has to prop it up.
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:58 PM
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Belts and Holsters, holsters and belts, one could make a class just on that topic alone. Even in the military there are those who like the leather vs those who like the last chance. those who like angled vs straight vs thigh vs waist lvl. Those who like secondary on armor vs legs. And numerous styles for the current mission tasking.

Point being it would be time consuming in a class and also so subjective that it might be alittle better for a brief ppt. slide on examples and let the individuals learn over time. Heck...how many of us have changed over the years
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Old 05-31-2015, 01:21 AM
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Learned the need for a good belt and holster while in Alaska back in the 60's. You can't do with out either one to carry safely. And the better the holster and belt set up I have found the better you can conceal if you need to.

A good leather gun belt should be bought before thinking of carrying!
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:48 AM
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It doesn't necessarily need to be a $100+ "gunbelt" but it does need to
fit the holster belt loop(s) properly, and it should be fairly rigid. Depends
a lot on the weight of the carried gun.

Teaching for about 17 years, I don't remember a class when I didn't
spend some time talking about the importance of the belt. With women
it is different. Many of them (and some men) don't wear belts. That
presents another problem, that we will leave for another time and place.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:10 AM
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You can get a good Bianchi leather belt for about $50-60 or a Wilderness Tactical Frequent flyer Instructor's nylon(?) (reinforced stitching) Belt for $35.
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:24 PM
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When I was instructed, the importance of a good gun belt was part of the course. When I became an instructor I imparted the same info to my students. At that time there was also the backup of the LGS who sold the holsters. No internet existed.
Now you can order on line not knowing a darn thing about holsters and belts, so it is imperative for instructors to school their students on the subject.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:24 PM
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One of the first things I have my new guys do is go out and get a good leather gun belt. You would be hard pressed to find a guy in my line of work NOT wearing some version of the double-thickness 1.5" leather belt.
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Old 12-24-2018, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidsix View Post
One of the first things I have my new guys do is go out and get a good leather gun belt. You would be hard pressed to find a guy in my line of work NOT wearing some version of the double-thickness 1.5" leather belt.
I'm seeing more people than ever wearing a gun without a proper belt! Did I miss something? Has the price of leather skyrocketed?
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:04 AM
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Default VENTURE A *GUESS* ?

For myself, any $ I got I put towards another gun. Things like quality cleaning rods, quality binoculars/scopes, chronographs, spotting scopes, quality gear in general, took a second seat, until I grew up & gained some experience. I still refuse to pay 300$ for a holster, or belt as much as I would like to have them. When I win the powerball I will get ALL THAT STUFF. The guy you mentioned had a learn the hard way kinda night. What's important to me is probly different to another.
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:08 AM
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And this is why we all have the "big box o'holsters" in the corner . . .
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:27 AM
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Default DELFATTI AINT BEGGING ON THE CORNER.

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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
I'm seeing more people than ever wearing a gun without a proper belt! Did I miss something? Has the price of leather skyrocketed?
Did I miss it? When was "quality" leather cheap? When you can go to WW and buy SOMETHING (uncle mikes) off the shelf RIGHT NOW, & "it will probably work OK" may have something to do with it. Speaking of belts, I don't see them hanging around in the big box or LGS's. They are more of a do some research, order online, & WAIT for delivery. People have become less inclined to do the homework & more inclined to want it now, IMO.

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Old 12-24-2018, 10:52 AM
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My instructor, Jeff Cooper, was pretty clear on the need for quality gunbelts.

Colonel Cooper addressed most significant issues in the course of his training programs.

Of course, his in person training was focused on folks who were pretty serious about gun matters as opposed to those with a more casual or transient concern about carrying and using a handgun.
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerpat View Post
I don't understand people who spend $400 on a handgun and then carry it in a $30 nylon holster with a $15 belt from Walmart.
They probably buy the $400. gun because they don't have a lot of money and a $400. gun will probably work just fine for defense. If a person has to watch their dollars a $30. dollar holster and a $15. belt may be all they can afford and I'm pretty sure they will work. Not everybody can afford a $2000-5000 dollar pistol with a tooled leather holster and a matching belt with with a silver and gold buckle. Larry
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:42 PM
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There is an almost universal mistake I see when people are trying to buy a gun belt; they think leather= good gun belt. It doesn't.

There are good leather gun belts out there. The problem with leather, any leather, it that as it ages, it softens. When it softens, it doesn't support the gun as well as it should. This creates pain when carrying because the weight of the gun isn't spread out and focuses on one point.

There are no absolutes in life, but for me, I'll only use a gun belt that has a polymer (or other stiffener) liner that won't break down. My Uncle Mike's Instructor belt is as stiff today as the day I bought it at least 5 years ago. I think I only paid $25 for it.

I've recently discovered Kore Gun Belts. These always fit properly, aren't too expensive, look nice and not "tactical" and have a polymer liner so, they're stiff. I really like these and highly recommend them.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:49 PM
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Sadly, Eagle Industries is no more, but this was/is the best all around belt I have ever worn. Luckily, I have a couple in rotation, and one near new in storage . . .

Eagle Industries Instructor's Emergency Rappel Belt | Free Shipping over $49!
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:09 PM
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Check out "Wilderness Tactical Products" their 'Frequent Flyer" belt is a modified(no metal)instructors belt.......

I've been using the 5 stitch model for about 3 years now ...... great belt..... with the double rings it looks more "70s hippie" than 21st century taticooool. About $35-40
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:09 PM
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Default ANYONE (EVER) USE THAT FEATURE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Sadly, Eagle Industries is no more, but this was/is the best all around belt I have ever worn. Luckily, I have a couple in rotation, and one near new in storage . . .

Eagle Industries Instructor's Emergency Rappel Belt | Free Shipping over $49!
I have one too & think it would sorta strangle your insides if you tried to rappel with it. Better to have it & not need it???
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:23 PM
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When I started carrying a gun no one talked about what belt or what holster. I learned by trial and error. My EDC belt is a Kydex reinforced leather belt and have worn it almost every day since I bought it. I have also purchased gun belts from Eaglestroker, Snubby Fan.Tucker and Byrd and Don Hume.


I also learned to buy good quality holsters. My EDC holster is a Roy's original, Lobo Gun leather, Enhanced Pancake and it has shouldered the bulk of carry duties for the last 10 plus years. For off the shelf holsters I like Galco and Don Hume.
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Old 12-26-2018, 10:13 PM
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We can't, here in Tennessee. The curriculum is clearly defined PowerPoint presentations. Instructors may answer questions during break periods, but revealing a carry gun inadvertently isn't that big a deal in a state with *carry* permits and no legal obligation to conceal the firearm.

Personal opinion- decent quality and some degree of positive retention.

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Old 12-30-2018, 05:28 AM
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I've always recommended Double Thick Horsehide Gun Belts after buying and using one over the last 15 years. To me there is no equal! While the initial outlay is more than cowhide, they last far and beyond what any Cowhide double leather belt has for me.

Not only is material important the belt width is equally important! While a 1 1/4" wide belt is more than adequate for a Model 60, a mini compact pistol, and even a Colt Detective Special, larger framed guns and OWB holsters need at least 1 1/2" to properly carry the weight over the long term.

Quality Cowhide is great but quality Horsehide is better, IMO.
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:54 AM
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I would have thanked the guy. If I had somehow been roped into squirming through a poetic reading, having that scenario occupy my mind would be a blessing
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Old 12-30-2018, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
I'm seeing more people than ever wearing a gun without a proper belt! Did I miss something? Has the price of leather skyrocketed?
In my local area ("permitless carry"), seeing someone with a proper belt or holster, or sometimes 'any' belt or holster, is unusual. This is not a criticism but my observation about how some may take carry a little too casually, perhaps.
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:17 AM
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I carry on a Bigfoot gun belt, It has a steel liner to keep it stiff. I've never tried taking it thru the airport. Also most of my holsters are from Bullard leather in Texas. Most times you get what you pay for.
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:35 AM
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As an instructor, yes I have recommended gunbelts.

I use em myself daily.

This one's today's rig.



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Old 12-30-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
I have one too & think it would sorta strangle your insides if you tried to rappel with it. Better to have it & not need it???
The main use I had for it outside of just an every day gun belt was hooking into the rail where students dropped off while teaching high angle rescue. I did rappel down about 50 feet with one once, just to see how it works. The main issue is the belt ripping through your belt loops as it follows its inevitable path to your armpits. The loops did not survive, but I figured they wouldn't. The belt survived quite nicely, and I still wear it today. That's why we call it an "emergency . . . "
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Last edited by Muss Muggins; 12-30-2018 at 10:45 AM. Reason: added a thought
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Old 12-31-2018, 12:31 PM
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I learned about gun belts from reading forums addressing defensive carry. This one and others. Buying my first good quality gun belt was one of the most enlightening experiences I have ever had. It immediately converted me to OWB carry almost exclusively. So much easier and more comfortable than IWB or pocket carry which had been the norm up to that point. Also much quicker and easier to access.
My instructer(s) have always addressed different methods of concealment/carry, but I don't recall anything about equipment.
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Old 01-02-2019, 03:15 AM
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I was pleased to see that his is an old thread! Otherwise, here we go again.

No one knows what a 'good gun belt' is. Those who think they do, would have to define it as 'wide as possible, thick, stiff, with a sturdy buckle'.

More important is that this definition of a 'good' gun belt only came into being because of really bad holster design: top heavy. A thin, soft belt will readily carry your loaded pistol inside a very-well-designed holster if it's at least wide enough; which I would define as 1.5" minimum. I test my holsters on a personally-acquired, certified Walmart belt of that width.

The 'barrel band' belts that the cognoscenti recommend came from the competition pistoleros of the '70s who were dialing it all back from the wide buscadero belts of Fast Draw and Mountain Men shoots. For them it was a compromise! But for daily use it's a ridiculous concept.

Don't get a 'good' gunbelt. Get a good holster, which for concealment at least includes low center-of-gravity (so NOT a Bianchi Askins Avenger).
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