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Old 12-16-2015, 02:16 PM
adams484 adams484 is offline
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Default Holster buying as a second thought...

How many of you have been asked for help when a new to CCW user who is looking for a firearm?

How many times a day does someone post a request here for a holster source for XXX handgun?

Sure if you are trying to acquire a holster for a 2nd or 3rd Gen S&W that you just want to start carrying for a change then yes you would have to go on the quest for a holster or go with a multi-fit nylon holster.

But how many of you when bringing a new CCW person to the store to find a handgun ever consider whether can they get a holster for this gun?

I make holsters for a living and regularly show at gun shows and have people constantly trying to get a holster for a handgun that is not available as a blue gun or other suitable mold.

Here is a tip... Go to Ring's blue gun website and download their PDF catalog then print out the handgun section. Now you have a respectable list of what you can recommend for a purchase that anyone of us holster makers can build from. We all use blue guns or cast aluminum gun molds so use what we work from to guide you.

Or you can go the other route like a guy I sold a holster to at one show. He came by several times throughout the show looking at this one holster I had. Finally I spoke with him thinking maybe he needed a little help with deciding. He related he loved the holster but did not have a gun that would fit it. I said I could make him one like it for one of the guns he had. He said no he would just buy this one then go buy a gun for it...LOL That was a first for me!

But back to the point if you are purchasing a handgun for carry then be certain to realize that not all guns are easy to get a holster for. So go prepared with a blue gun catalog or stop by my tables at a show I hand them out for people shopping for a new gun purchase as a convenience item. If it becomes enough of a criteria for purchasing a handgun then firearm manufacturers may have an incentive to produce a mold themselves to sell to us holster makers instead of us having to rely on an outside source. After all, while I do have a great number of guns I have purchased just for holster making it has to be a real popular model that is not available as a blue gun to justify $900 verses $55.

Or you can come by my shop and spend hours while I use your gun as a mold for a new holster.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
He said no he would just buy this one then go buy a gun for it...LOL That was a first for me!
That really made me laugh!!!!! I love gun people.

You are ever so right, too!

And then there is this:

Last night I was talking to a lady and she said she wants to start concealed carrying. When we got down to it she really wants a small, lightweight gun, and I think a J-Frame .22 or a Beretta Bobcat type of .22 is all that will work for her. Then I asked her how she planned to carry it and she said in a holster inside her waistband. So I asked her how she planned to do that (she had a skirt on with no belt) and she indicated that she would hook the holster onto her skirt/IWB. I could see what she was wearing so I said "You do know that it you do that you're going to drop the gun because it won't stay put without a belt......right?"

"I never thought of that!", she exclaimed.

Adams44 is right - plan your guns around available holsters - but plan on a good gunbelt, too!!!
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:01 PM
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Way back, it was so long ago that JC was a Corporal -
Two brothers that I knew up in FT. Collins were trying to get into the holster biz.
And they were just aching to make me one for my prized Model 39.
So I reluctantly loaned them my 39 so they could make it fit.
Still have the gun and holster.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:34 PM
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But as a customer how am I to know you don't already have a holster made for a gun that's not on a blue gun list. Some guys have that model gun or have had customers supply that gun so they have the molds or whatever. Years ago there was a guy doing the local shows who would make you any IWB hybrid holster you wanted so long as you supplied the gun. He would do it on the spot as you shopped. Want a Broomhandle Mauser holster. ...no problem just bring it in!
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:19 PM
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In my view, any maker who relies on blue guns without also having had the real pistols in hand for the t&e, is asking for trouble for himself and his customers. I jumped off leather workers.net within a day after discovering that hobbyists there were relying on blue guns rather than beginning with the real thing.

The controls on auto pistols, for example, can hand us designer/makers some unpleasant reminders that holsters can interfere with them. Personally I first experienced this with the Colt 380 after discovering that the thumb safety didn't lock the slide when "on", so the blowback slide moved when the pistol was inserted into a tightly moulded holster, putting the pistol out of battery.

These same things happen with mag buttons, triggers, sights, safeties, slides, and anything else that moves or interferes. It's why trigger shoes were such a problem in the 60s: bang!

The courts, in which I've appeared early and often, are mighty unforgiving of any amateur approaches to safety shortcuts in design, testing, quality assurance, and manufacturing. Buyer beware.

Although I use blue guns in manufacture, for mouldings, all my designs then went to USA for t&e before they went into production. No new models can be introduced until that testing can be repeated on them. And, yes, there were two fails including one that was too tight for its Glock to pass testing and that revealed a flaw in a process (drying) that I then fixed up, replaced the holster, and when it passed t&e I have slavishly adhered to the best practice.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:48 PM
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Default You are so right....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
That really made me laugh!!!!! I love gun people.

Then I asked her how she planned to carry it and she said in a holster inside her waistband. So I asked her how she planned to do that (she had a skirt on with no belt) and she indicated that she would hook the holster onto her skirt/IWB.
I had a similar experience with a woman. Women have different dress styles that most often don't lend themselves very well to gun belt quality belts. This lady was after a clip style holster to use without a belt. I told her that I could make one but I didn't think she would be happy with it. I tried to explain that it would cause her skirt to sag and when drawing from it there were likely to be problems like the holster shifting instead of releasing the handgun smoothly.

I usually suggest if they are inexperienced with a particular style of carry that they purchase a cheap nylon holster and try the style of carry with that for a while. Sure it won't match a good quality leather holster but it allows them to get a feel for the location on their body and the access to the firearm. This way they can try a number of things with out breaking the bank. When they get it all down to where they feel confident they have the best solution for them then it is time to upgrade to the best they can afford.

What chaps my hide is the guy who can afford an $800 gun but thinks a $80 dollar holster is out of their budget. And forget a decent belt.

What a lot of people don't realize is that a real good belt will make a 40 oz. gun carry like a 30 oz. gun by distributing the weight further around the waste and not drooping and applying it all at one location on the waist. And by distributing the weight further around the waist it allows it to hold heavier firearms without having to cinch it up as much making it more comfortable.

I carry a full size FNP 45 the fore runner to the FNX and it is a brick weighing in at 44 oz. fully loaded. I do not notice the difference in weight to my other full size handguns because of the belt I am wearing and it is old and well worn but it is a gun belt made for support. I save the "Sunday Go To Meeting" gun belts for dress activities. I know it is not easy to cough up the cash for these but it is one of those things that after you have spent the cash you usually don't regret it.

The moral of the story is a good gun belt is never appreciated enough until you're used to one and don't have it anymore.

So back to the Ladies and what they can do besides put on a pair of dress jeans and wear a belt. There are belly band holsters that offer superior stability but lack in accessibility. There are the shoulder holsters but they have their challenges. There is also the purse option to consider and there are many excellent options in very nice special purpose purses but they are often the target of theft so they are not perfect solutions either.

Or you can do like I did and just adjust your wardrobe to suit CCW. Yes I took to wearing shirts with square cut tails long enough to cover an OWB holster my personal favorite for comfort. I don't like it all the time but heck how often has looking stylish saved your life or a loved one's?

Life is full of compromises and holsters are part of it.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:05 PM
adams484 adams484 is offline
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Default So sorry you misunderstood me I think...

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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
But as a customer how am I to know you don't already have a holster made for a gun that's not on a blue gun list. Some guys have that model gun or have had customers supply that gun so they have the molds or whatever. Years ago there was a guy doing the local shows who would make you any IWB hybrid holster you wanted so long as you supplied the gun. He would do it on the spot as you shopped. Want a Broomhandle Mauser holster. ...no problem just bring it in!
I am not unhappy when they come to me wanting something that is hard to do. I was only implying how often this is the case and it can easily be avoided if prepared when purchasing. I am working towards setting up 3D scanning and printing so when someone has that hard to find fit I can just scan their gun and go back to the shop and print out a model. But that technology in not quite ready yet. But I am watching it carefully.

It is frustrating though to not be able to help them and in the case of the newly purchased guns can be avoided by knowing what your are getting into.

Surprising enough you need to own an N Frame to make a tightly molded holster for one. But I get enough requests I bought one for this purpose.

At least that is what I told the wife

But it is true you can't find a mold for them and the lug lengths vary on them with model and year that even when you have a N Frame you have to be careful about holster design and fit.

But I wasn't complaining only pointing out how many people never consider the holster availability when buying a gun to carry. For collectors and range it is not so much an issue.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:10 PM
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I understand where you're coming from. I'm just saying that as a customer I have no idea what you have available to you.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:17 PM
adams484 adams484 is offline
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Default I would personally like to own every firearm I have made a holster for

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
In my view, any maker who relies on blue guns without also having had the real pistols in hand for the t&e, is asking for trouble for himself and his customers.
But that is not practical in a business sense. If a customer feels that way they can always bring their gun to me and I will make a holster from their gun. I have single actions that I rarely shoot. Some of the handguns I have bought for the purpose of building holsters for them have never been fired other than by the manufacturer.

My customers can return any holster for a full refund or replacement until I make it right.

But I am afraid I do not have the resources to buy every model of gun I make a holster for.

That is the best I can do.

Most of you don't know what it is like to have to buy a gun you don't really want only to not be able to afford the ones you do because you spent the money on the ones you needed but not wanted.

I am not fishing for pity here but it is what it is.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:22 AM
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Although I have worked in environments where indeed I had every handgun available, including when I operated my design studio, Nichols Innovation, nevertheless I'm not suggesting that every maker needs to own every pistol. Instead I'm saying that prior to production, every model of every design needs to be evaluated with the real pistol. To this end, a small maker in USA can make an arrangement with a local gunshop to have pistol in hand.

In the end that means, just because one can get a plastic blue gun or a cast aluminium one, doesn't mean that it is enough for both maker and user to deploy that holster in a life and death environment. Personally, as I said in my original,post, I have mine tested in USA because I have no access to pistols here in Oz.

And I'm between evaluators now, so I can introduce no new models nor add any new pistol fitments until I fix that. So, bottom line, I do without. It's been several years now since my friend Michael Punzone at High Noon died, and my arrangement with Josh Bossart failed after interference from the folks at Milt Sparks.

What does this have to do with forum members? Hard won experience says that there are plenty of big and small makers out there who are using only moulds and no real pistols in design and manufacture, and that's risky for you. And likely not a risk that you realise you're taking. Nor do they, until a widow takes them to court with a motivated personal injury lawyer.
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:09 AM
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Without an evaluator, and not having access to handguns in Australia, have you stopped making altogether?
As an aside, have you encountered any problems with ACBP or shipping companies when re-importing holsters?
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:14 AM
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Thought I'd weigh in from a relative "newbie" standpoint. I've been making holsters for sale now for a less than a decade, but I only make them from actual guns I have in my shop, not blue guns or aluminum guns. I agree with rednichols comments here. The one time I made a holster from a blue gun, the fit did not compare to my other holsters, and I eventually used the blue "training gun" only for that purpose, in classes I taught.
Talking to people about using only "real guns" can be tricky in its own right. I had a lady become increasingly agitated and very offended because she thought I was telling her that her gun of choice wasn't worth calling a "real gun," and she told me off in no uncertain terms.
And yes, it's expensive to buy guns that you don't personally like, or want to shoot. And I have five Glocks sitting in my gun safe, along with a couple of Rugers that I wouldn't choose to carry. But it means I can make a better holster.
Years ago my wife started checking on who was buying my holsters, what they did for a living. The preponderance of them were LEOs. It was a wake up call for me. When you stop to think your holster may become a factor in a life or death situation, suddenly shelling out the dollars for the real thing to design, build and test the holster on doesn't seem like such a big deal. I've chosen to limit the models I can make holsters for, rather than risk causing damage and injury.
We keeps a list of the guns we tell people we can't build as a target for the next gun to buy.
I can't make a holster for every gun that is made, but have made the choice that the holsters I do make, will work for my customers.
This might not work for everyone, but I sleep pretty good at night.
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Old 12-17-2015, 07:27 PM
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Default I do test the holster designs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Although I have worked in environments where indeed I had every handgun available, including when I operated my design studio, Nichols Innovation, nevertheless I'm not suggesting that every maker needs to own every pistol. Instead I'm saying that prior to production, every model of every design needs to be evaluated with the real pistol. To this end, a small maker in USA can make an arrangement with a local gunshop to have pistol in hand.

In the end that means, just because one can get a plastic blue gun or a cast aluminium one, doesn't mean that it is enough for both maker and user to deploy that holster in a life and death environment. Personally, as I said in my original,post, I have mine tested in USA because I have no access to pistols here in Oz.

And I'm between evaluators now, so I can introduce no new models nor add any new pistol fitments until I fix that. So, bottom line, I do without. It's been several years now since my friend Michael Punzone at High Noon died, and my arrangement with Josh Bossart failed after interference from the folks at Milt Sparks.

What does this have to do with forum members? Hard won experience says that there are plenty of big and small makers out there who are using only moulds and no real pistols in design and manufacture, and that's risky for you. And likely not a risk that you realise you're taking. Nor do they, until a widow takes them to court with a motivated personal injury lawyer.
While I do not test my holsters with every handgun I have available there is not a single holster design we make that I haven't personally worn for at very minimum a week of all waking hours with a typical pistol representative of the type the holster was made for. I break them in, hit the range with them, drive with them, work in the shop with them even fall asleep on the couch watching TV with them. If I don't like it it won't be sold by Archangel Gun Leather.

I can't say that I haven't had some challenges though. I was asked for a Yaqui style holster for a Walther PPX and if you are familiar with that gun, while having one of the finest triggers in that price level it is has a big wide slide. It took me two holsters and several hours of fitting before I was satisfied it was suitable to use. I won't do another one at the price I sold it for again but nothing goes out my door without me agonizing over whether it is good enough.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodentrout View Post
Thought I'd weigh in from a relative "newbie" standpoint. I've been making holsters for sale now for a less than a decade, but I only make them from actual guns I have in my shop, not blue guns or aluminum guns. I agree with rednichols comments here. The one time I made a holster from a blue gun, the fit did not compare to my other holsters, and I eventually used the blue "training gun" only for that purpose, in classes I taught.
Talking to people about using only "real guns" can be tricky in its own right. I had a lady become increasingly agitated and very offended because she thought I was telling her that her gun of choice wasn't worth calling a "real gun," and she told me of f in no uncertain terms.
And yes, it's expensive to buy guns that you don't personally like, or want to shoot. And I have five Glocks sitting in my gun safe, along with a couple of Rugers that I wouldn't choose to carry. But it means I can make a better holster.
Years ago my wife started checking on who was buying my holsters, what they did for a living. The preponderance of them were LEOs. It was a wake up call for me. When you stop to think your holster may become a factor in a life or death situation, suddenly shelling out the dollars for the real thing to design, build and test the holster on doesn't seem like such a big deal. I've chosen to limit the models I can make holsters for, rather than risk causing damage and injury.
We keeps a list of the guns we tell people we can't build as a target for the next gun to buy.
I can't make a holster for every gun that is made, but have made the choice that the holsters I do make, will work for my customers.
This might not work for everyone, but I sleep pretty good at night.
"Made with real guns, for real lawmen". I like your strategy. Very professional. PM sent.
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by adams484 View Post
While I do not test my holsters with every handgun I have available there is not a single holster design we make that I haven't personally worn for at very minimum a week of all waking hours with a typical pistol representative of the type the holster was made for. I break them in, hit the range with them, drive with them, work in the shop with them even fall asleep on the couch watching TV with them. If I don't like it it won't be sold by Archangel Gun Leather.

I can't say that I haven't had some challenges though. I was asked for a Yaqui style holster for a Walther PPX and if you are familiar with that gun, while having one of the finest triggers in that price level it is has a big wide slide. It took me two holsters and several hours of fitting before I was satisfied it was suitable to use. I won't do another one at the price I sold it for again but nothing goes out my door without me agonizing over whether it is good enough.
We're on the same page, then, all good.

It pays to understand why holster castings exist at all. Originally, with makers like Heiser, metal castings were used to 'block' the wetted holsters open by hand, then the holsters allow d to dry, likely at room temperature. Though in Denver . . . .? Wer're talking the 1940s and earlier.

Then the likes of Gaylord were hand boning, perhaps with real pistols even. How many did we really need then? The days of fitments for Mauser broom handles and Borchardts were gone with Heiser. For Chic it would've been M&P type revolvers and 1911s. Easy. By Theodore's time, when I myself started, an LEO maker would've added PPKs and 39s. Also easy.

The Big Bang was after them, when Bianchi and Safariland introduced mouldings presses. These were rudimentary machines adapted from the shoe trade when I joined the industry, but shortly they were air over hydraulic machines with electronically controlled pressure and dwell. And that much pressure required solid metal castings because the real thing bent or broke quickly. And rusted.

Blue guns didn't come out of this process. They are training AIDS and originated with ASP red guns, which was only incidentally in the holster biz. These won't survive presses, not least because they can't force the holster to stay flat under pressure.

The auto,pistol,market was sparked by USA's military pistol competition, which brought us Beretta, SIG, Smith. Then Smith launched its 'gun of the month' club and their variants exploded. Today every maker has heaps of models, plus variants, plu obsoletes.

Now how does a small maker keep up? Not knowing the real reason for moulds, the blue guns seem like the complete solution. And I use them myself; they're stellar reproductions. But steel guns with working controls still,have to,go into our holsters during the process or mistakes get made, such as centre of gravity errors or ejecting mag buttons or shifting safeties.
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
Without an evaluator, and not having access to handguns in Australia, have you stopped making altogether?
As an aside, have you encountered any problems with ACBP or shipping companies when re-importing holsters?
Holsters travel readily between the two countries. But I need a federal level import permit for the blue guns and yet no,permit to,possess them in my State. But for blue guns in the other states, one must also be a gun owner, which means one must be a pistol,club member, which means one must compete monthly, which means one can only have one pistol in any one caliber. Bugger that.
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Old 10-18-2016, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
That really made me laugh!!!!! I love gun people.

Then I asked her how she planned to carry it and she said in a holster inside her waistband. So I asked her how she planned to do that (she had a skirt on with no belt) and she indicated that she would hook the holster onto her skirt/IWB. I could see what she was wearing so I said "You do know that it you do that you're going to drop the gun because it won't stay put without a belt......right?"
I get a lot of requests for holsters with clips from women who plan to carry without a belt. They don't realize the weight involved bouncing around as they move around. Women are also more resistant to concessions in dress for CCW then men are so it is more difficult for them to conceal at first until they realize what all CCW people come to eventually, we have to dress for it said, done, and over with...

Also women are notorious purse carriers. They leave their purses with loaded hand guns often not in a holster with the trigger guard covered in the shopping cart and around the home. Think about how many times you got into gramma's or moms purse when she wasn't looking looking for chewing gum or something when you were a kid.

You men too ... Think about the glove compartment carry when your out with the kids or grandbabies. There is nothing like having it on you and in full control at all times. P.S. I am as guilty as the anyone on this score but I am trying to be more conscious of this aspect.
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Jason Adams

Last edited by adams484; 10-18-2016 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Addition of a point...
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