EYE CANDY AT MILT SPARKS

crazyphil · #1 08-31-2017, 02:33 PM

My friend Jim Wall at Milt Sparks Holsters, who made my 200AW,
called and said he had something to show me. We visited a while
about holsters and I showed him my manual "Renowned Gun
Leather". (He wants one).

Then he showed me what he had called me about. They have a
carver, so they are producing carved holsters. The one shown
here is a carved 200AW. S&W 38/44 on board.

Scorpion520AZ · #2 08-31-2017, 02:39 PM

"I love the smell of fine, carved leather in the morning. It smells like.....victory".

rednichols · #3 08-31-2017, 03:52 PM

That's right, you're neighbors, aren't you. Indeed the Mexican carving is very, very nicely done. You can tell your friend Jim that I said so ;-)

Kansasgunner · #4 08-31-2017, 05:02 PM

That is a fine example of leather art! And functional as well.

ISCS Yoda · #5 08-31-2017, 05:05 PM

Gorgeous holster. I will have to check out Milt Sparks' website again!

Iggy · #6 08-31-2017, 05:27 PM

That's some right fine hide bending right there.

rustythread · #7 08-31-2017, 06:37 PM

Got pics from other directions?

Is that a "dog ear" rear sight cover?

Nice bit of leatherwork!

crazyphil · #8 08-31-2017, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchdog

That's a beautiful piece of work. I'm always partial to open toe holsters. Thanks for showing it to us.

I know lots of people will disagree with me for saying this, but traditionalist that I am, the tension screw looks out of place to me on such a nicely carved holster. It's a classic style of carving, but to me, the screw modernizes the holster a bit too much. At least the screw isn't black, though...thank goodness for small favors. I do have holsters with tension screws (one is a daily carry), but that's only because I haven't had the money to get the exact holster I want yet. When I do, it'll be adios to the current holster, I think.

I'd like to have a holster like the one shown with a dyed background.

That screw happens to be for the adjustable welt.
The story is that Sparks and Keith "improved" the
Hank Sloan adjustable welt.

crazyphil · #9 08-31-2017, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustythread

Got pics from other directions?

Is that a "dog ear" front sight cover?

Nice bit of leatherwork!

That dog ear covers the rear sight and keeps the hammer
from shredding the lining of the jacket.

crazyphil · #10 09-01-2017, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchdog

Well, as I've said lots of times here, I'm always learning something new from being a member of this forum. Thanks for that info.

Quoting from the Milt Sparks website: "The adjustable, slotted welt is skived and tapered to prevent the welt from backing out once the screw is tightened. It is then meticulously hand stitched in place for long lasting durability."

I had to look up what "skived" means, but I'm still not clear on the purpose of an adjustable welt, and not sure that I really understand what "skived" means. And why would the welt be slotted? And I don't understand how the welt could "back out" if it's stitched in place.

Maybe someone could explain all this for me?

Still don't like the screw, though.

I'm just a student still learning like you Watchdog.
I have skived leather. To me it means cutting a piece of
leather at a certain angle, so it will fit into a certain void.

The adjustable welt was conceived and patented by Hank Sloan
who was a high up in the F.B.I. It was manufactured by
Bucheimer. They can still be found occasionally on the auction
sites.
The story is that Milt Sparks improved the adjustable welt with
Hank's permission. I'm not sure how or what he improved.
Elmer Keith, it is said, suggested the "dog ear" to keep the
hammer from shreading the wearer's jacket lining. I don't know
how that could be, because Hank Sloan had already made his
holsters with the "dog ear".

Elmer claimed to be involved in many new things.
Some true. Some maybe.

Here, on the left, is my Hank Sloan by Bucheimer.
On the right is my Milt Sparks 200AW.

Russell Cottle · #11 09-01-2017, 04:33 PM

That's a 'pretty' one!

M29since14 · #12 09-01-2017, 04:46 PM

For my own uses I always prefer basketweave, which I know bears no relationship to that beautiful carving, but that said - Wow, really nice work! Thanks for showing us that.

Russell Cottle · #13 09-01-2017, 04:46 PM

Keith's Sparks 'Sloan' doesn't appear to have an adjustable welt and it's more 'rounded' in the trigger guard to muzzle area. It also has a spring loaded hammer thong.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/201..._holster_1.jpg

rednichols · #14 09-01-2017, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyphil

I'm just a student still learning like you Watchdog.
I have skived leather. To me it means cutting a piece of
leather at a certain angle, so it will fit into a certain void.

The adjustable welt was conceived and patented by Hank Sloan
who was a high up in the F.B.I. It was manufactured by
Bucheimer. They can still be found occasionally on the auction
sites.

The story is that Milt Sparks improved the adjustable welt with
Hank's permission. I'm not sure how or what he improved.
Elmer Keith, it is said, suggested the "dog ear" to keep the
hammer from shreading the wearer's jacket lining. I don't know
how that could be, because Hank Sloan had already made his
holsters with the "dog ear".

Elmer claimed to be involved in many new things.
Some true. Some maybe.

Here, on the left, is my Hank Sloan by Bucheimer.
On the right is my Milt Sparks 200AW.

Hmmm, all of that is incorrect. And Milt Sparks, and his successors, have traded on that false tale since then to this very day; which formed a small part of my suit against the company for unfair competition (now ended by a technicality; fair enough, that's how the game is played).

The true story is revealed by Elmer's description of the project in "Hell I Was There" and the auction of his estate a few years back. Elmer had this holster by Chic Gaylord -- notice it already has a hammer protector -- for his 44 but not being a Threepersons with welt, Elmer's pistol tended to fall out when he leaned over. Image is from the estate auction:

keith collection - gaylord (2).jpg

Elmer also had several Bucheimer versions of the Hank Sloan holster, which also already had the hammer guard. Sloan's was a true Threepersons with welt; his patent was of his improvement over the Threepersons welt which, over time, would lose its grip on the frame. So the uppermost end of the welt was left unstitched and secured by a tee-nut and screw, so that the welt could be repostioned to get back the grip on the frame.

Milt went to Elmer, who he had flown on hunts, hoping to get him interested in promoting his leather flight bags; and told Elmer he was thinking of getting into the holster business. This was early 1970s, having worked as a sewing machine operator for Eubanks; which is where another myth began that Milt had been building under his own name prior to meeting Keith (it was the end of Andy Anderson from an earthquake and then strokes, that was Milt's entrée into the holster biz, using copies).

Elmer, no dummy, saw an opportunity: here is a man who wants to make holsters, and so Elmer had Milt combine the two holsters, by incorporating the Sloan patented welt into the unpatented Gaylord holster. Elmer's personal version had a welt up the forward fold, for his high front sights.

sloan example.jpeg this is an exemplar of the Sloan and not from the aucton

keith collection - sloan.jpg Sloans from the auction

Elmer also said he had Milt copy a Boyt rifle scabbard that he loved but was out of production (also in the auction).

Neither man got permission from Hank Sloan to build the Sparks version; and Hank's patent was still in force. No worries, problem solved, Hank died within a few years.

From there, the legend began that Milt had permission from Sloan (discovery in the lawsuit showed that to be false), that Milt had added the hammer guard to protect suit linings (also false, both the Gaylord and the Sloan already had the hammer guard).

Phil, I wish I'd realised you'd been mates with Jim at Sparks all this time whilst my suit was active; I would have been less forthcoming with you.

Russell Cottle · #15 09-01-2017, 05:17 PM

Thanks for the information, Red. I never thought Keith's holster was a 'Sloan'. It didn't 'look' like any I'd seen. Now I know why. It wasn't!

crazyphil · #16 09-01-2017, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Hmmm, all of that is incorrect. And Milt Sparks, and his successors, have traded on that false tale since then to this very day; which formed a small part of my suit against the company for unfair competition (now ended by a technicality; fair enough, that's how the game is played).

The true story is revealed by Elmer's description of the project in "Hell I Was There" and the auction of his estate a few years back. Elmer had this holster by Chic Gaylord -- notice it already has a hammer protector -- for his 44 but not being a Threepersons with welt, Elmer's pistol tended to fall out when he leaned over. Image is from the estate auction:

Attachment 300895

Elmer also had several Bucheimer versions of the Hank Sloan holster, which also already had the hammer guard. Sloan's was a true Threepersons with welt; his patent was of his improvement over the Threepersons welt which, over time, would lose its grip on the frame. So the uppermost end of the welt was left unstitched and secured by a tee-nut and screw, so that the welt could be repostioned to get back the grip on the frame.

Milt went to Elmer, who he had flown on hunts, hoping to get him interested in promoting his leather flight bags; and told Elmer he was thinking of getting into the holster business. This was early 1970s, having worked as a sewing machine operator for Eubanks; which is where another myth began that Milt had been building under his own name prior to meeting Keith (it was the end of Andy Anderson from an earthquake and then strokes, that was Milt's entrée into the holster biz, using copies).

Elmer, no dummy, saw an opportunity: here is a man who wants to make holsters, and so Elmer had Milt combine the two holsters, by incorporating the Sloan patented welt into the unpatented Gaylord holster. Elmer's personal version had a welt up the forward fold, for his high front sights.

Attachment 300896 this is an exemplar of the Sloan and not from the aucton

Attachment 300897 Sloans from the auction

Elmer also said he had Milt copy a Boyt rifle scabbard that he loved but was out of production (also in the auction).

Neither man got permission from Hank Sloan to build the Sparks version; and Hank's patent was still in force. No worries, problem solved, Hank died within a few years.

From there, the legend began that Milt had permission from Sloan (discovery in the lawsuit showed that to be false), that Milt had added the hammer guard to protect suit linings (also false, both the Gaylord and the Sloan already had the hammer guard).

Phil, I wish I'd realised you'd been mates with Jim at Sparks all this time whilst my suit was active; I would have been less forthcoming with you.

Red, You think that is all incorrect? I think the general
remarks I made were pretty much in sync with what
you said, although you did amplify them somewhat.
I said Sloan already had the dog ear (hammer protector).
I also said Sloan's patent was for the adjustable welt.
I have seen Jim two times in the past 5 years. Nothing about
suits ever came up. In fact I don't recall any details about
the suit coming from you.
P.S. I have absolutely 0 interest in your lawsuits or any
one elses lawsuits. And I do not engage in gossip.

rednichols · #17 09-02-2017, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyphil

Red, You think that is all incorrect? I think the general
remarks I made were pretty much in sync with what
you said, although you did amplify them somewhat.
I said Sloan already had the dog ear (hammer protector).
I also said Sloan's patent was for the adjustable welt.
I have seen Jim two times in the past 5 years. Nothing about
suits ever came up. In fact I don't recall any details about
the suit coming from you.
P.S. I have absolutely 0 interest in your lawsuits or any
one elses lawsuits. And I do not engage in gossip.

Phil, I'm not implying that you're a gossip :-). In this thread, though, you've called Jim Walls a friend, which is of course fine by me; I'm sure he's a good man. And yet, when I discussed my suit with Mass Ayoob he said, "I'm in an awkward spot, I'm friends with both you and Tony" and we never discussed the matter again. Full disclosure made that possible. Yes, of course I mentioned the suit many times when I discovered you were in Boise; I simply thought of it as a pleasant coincidence.

Despite all that from me, you're a good man and always have been; and if I've implied otherwise, then I publicly apologise to you. Your friendship over the years has been a pleasure and hopefully will continue.

(I do hope you'll review your post about the history, and compare it with mine, a bit more carefully. I'm not blaming Elmer; what did Elmer know about the intellectual property of holster makers? It was Milt who based his business entirely on copying other makers. Yes, he did get oral permission after the fact from Bruce Nelson, in exchange for giving Bruce credit for a holster that he didn't actually invent; and in writing from the chap who came up with the Yaqui slide; but he did not get permission from Andy Anderson, and the b.s. in the various stories printed Milt about having permission from Hank Sloan is just that, b.s.)

keith44spl · #18 09-02-2017, 05:26 PM

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...2&d=1504204414

Phil,
That's sure nuff a looker......might build myself one.

Dave

crazyphil · #19 09-02-2017, 06:29 PM

Apology accepted Red. I know absolutely nothing about your lawsuit,
and I care even less.

crazyphil · #20 09-02-2017, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith44spl

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...2&d=1504204414

Phil,
That's sure nuff a looker......might build myself one.

Dave

Be sure and show us if you do Dave.

keith44spl · #21 09-02-2017, 07:21 PM

Phil,
not to hi-jack your thread.....

I got my own pattern design for a like shuck....

Just need to two tone the color, maybe a antique saddle tan
with a little darker back ground....

I got a black rig for court and or formal events.

crazyphil · #22 09-03-2017, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Phil,
not to hi-jack your thread.....

I got my own pattern design for a like shuck....

Just need to two tone the color, maybe a antique saddle tan
with a little darker back ground....

I got a black rig for court and or formal events.

This rig is very nice, but I like your jock strap over
on the other thread a little better. It must be Hell
to have all those choices when you go out.