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02-17-2018, 01:00 PM
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new to me O.Ball of Ft.Worth
I just acquired an O. Ball holster with dog ear and retention strap features. It is a little rough and someone re-dyed it black.
My 66-3 snub shows the K frame will seat into it down to the trigger guard, however my 19-8 4" will not and it is not quite all the way to the toe of the holster. Maybe this was made for a Colt Police revolver with a 4" barrel..... any suggestions?
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02-17-2018, 01:33 PM
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Great find !
Could it that it was made for a standard barrel K-Frame and the thicker barrel on a M19 doesn’t go as deep in the holster ?
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02-17-2018, 01:45 PM
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I think 66 and 19 are the same frame size, so it's just the 4" barrel
keeping it from seating. I have found that my 19 with 4" barrel fits
in holsters made for Colt's Official Police with 4" barrel, but I don't
think Colt made the OP with a 3" barrel?
Take it with you to a gun show and try a few. Maybe a 19 or 66 with
3" barrel? Or one of the Colts with 3" barrel?
Oliver O. Ball was a Lt. (homicide detective) on the Ft. Worth PD
from 1940-1976. He made holsters for graduates from the police
academy and for quite a few Law Enforcement Officers. He passed
on in 1983.
Here is my O. Ball holster carrying my S&W model 67 on the left,
and with my model 19 on the right.
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02-17-2018, 01:55 PM
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Nice find DevilDog. We don't see a lot of Oliver Ball holsters here. I think his work was very good. The thing that I like best about Ball's holsters is that most of them were a cop making holsters for cops. So, most of them probably saw duty with law enforcement.
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02-17-2018, 01:56 PM
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A K frame without the under lug and ramp front sight might be the ticket.
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02-17-2018, 02:10 PM
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DevilDog let me know if you don’t have such a 4 inch non-lugged K Frame to try - since we are neighbors and all
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02-17-2018, 02:18 PM
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well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletslap
DevilDog let me know if you don’t have such a 4 inch non-lugged K Frame to try - since we are neighbors and all
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just so happens I do not have one.... was on Gun broker looking at some mdl 10's. Sick, right. Buy the holster...... then the gun to go with it.
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02-17-2018, 02:36 PM
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That sounds perfectly normal to me
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02-17-2018, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
A K frame without the under lug and ramp front sight might be the ticket.
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Seeing your conundrum, and knowing Ball's era, the plain old 4" M&P was my first thought. They are 'smaller' than a 357 when it comes to holsters and were mighty common in Ball's time.
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02-17-2018, 03:49 PM
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Offer: I have a belt that came to me with a Ball holster, though it is unmarked. Presently it is tan Mexican carved and measures 37" to 40" (closest to furthest hole). If it would fit you and your holster I'm happy to make it black and send it along to you gratis. Oh, and a 38 slide that came with it, also unmarked.
ball (6).jpg
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02-17-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols
Offer: I have a belt that came to me with a Ball holster, though it is unmarked. Presently it is tan Mexican carved and measures 37" to 40" (closest to furthest hole). If it would fit you and your holster I'm happy to make it black and send it along to you gratis. Oh, and a 38 slide that came with it, also unmarked.
Attachment 326257
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That is a most generous offer sir. The belt would indeed fit me.
I will gladly take you up on your very generous offer.... thank you..... does not say it all.....
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02-17-2018, 04:15 PM
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That Red's generosity is exceeded only by his vast knowledge of
holsterology. We are fortunate to have him amongst us.
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02-17-2018, 04:17 PM
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Yes we are very fortunate !
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02-17-2018, 04:26 PM
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I could not agree more.
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02-17-2018, 06:06 PM
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Nice find. I think you’ll find that a pencil barrel M&P or a 15/67 fits just right. I don’t know about Ft. Worth PD but when Lt. Ball was actively making holsters Dallas PD was still issuing 4” 15s.
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02-18-2018, 06:58 PM
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found
Quote:
Originally Posted by TxShooter
Nice find. I think you’ll find that a pencil barrel M&P or a 15/67 fits just right. I don’t know about Ft. Worth PD but when Lt. Ball was actively making holsters Dallas PD was still issuing 4” 15s.
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I just bought a ragged old hand ejector pre-Mdl 10 from gun broker. We will see how she cleans up.... maybe a project gun.
S&W Pre Mdl 10.jpg
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02-18-2018, 08:13 PM
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Not too bad for a 1920s era gat.
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02-18-2018, 09:31 PM
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I found a set of Mother of Pearl service stocks... thinking of buying them for this rag. I am hoping some machine oil and brass wool will give me a nice worn patina and clean out any pitting on her.
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02-18-2018, 10:21 PM
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Definitely not a "sock draw" gun. The Model 10 was the first gun I ever shot. That was in the early 1970s and I've been enamored of them ever since. Right now there are a 10-5 and 10-6 Nickel sitting in the gun safe. I don't shoot them all that often, but they are must have guns for any serious gun owner. I also have a Model 18 that I use as a first gun for new shooters. Teaches great trigger control, it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
I just bought a ragged old hand ejector pre-Mdl 10 from gun broker. We will see how she cleans up.... maybe a project gun.
Attachment 326521
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02-19-2018, 12:50 AM
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02-19-2018, 07:51 PM
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ver y nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray
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Very nice set up..... very nice, I like it.
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02-20-2018, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil
Oliver O. Ball was a Lt. (homicide detective) on the Ft. Worth PD
from 1940-1976. He made holsters for graduates from the police
academy and for quite a few Law Enforcement Officers. He passed
on in 1983.
Here is my O. Ball holster carrying my S&W model 67 on the left,
and with my model 19 on the right.
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His death date made it easier, though not easy, to screen him out of the rest in my various research sites (tho I made a mistake in subscribing to Myheritage instead of Ancestry). The earliest I can find him as a policeman on Newspapers.com is 1949 and 1975 latest; he had a concurrent career as a boxing referee that precedes and succeeds his l.e.o. career by a few years. He appears as a detective during all those years, so likely that's what is required to be quoted in a newspaper on behalf of the P.D.
He appears to be Oliver E. Ball, lived 03 May 1911 (the year my own father was born) to 24 Aug 1983. Appears that his first wife b. 03 Nov 1915 died 04 Feb 1968 and he remarried 08 Jun 1973 and divorced 16 Jun 1981. His first wife is buried with him.
It was a post by boykin (sp?) on another Smith forum that clued me into his boxing ref career. Apparently well regarded in that field.
It's not much info that really relates to what I'm doing with The Book; but when I can place a person in time and space then they gain more relevance.
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02-20-2018, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols
His death date made it easier, though not easy, to screen him out of the rest in my various research sites (tho I made a mistake in subscribing to Myheritage instead of Ancestry). The earliest I can find him as a policeman on Newspapers.com is 1949 and 1975 latest; he had a concurrent career as a boxing referee that precedes and succeeds his l.e.o. career by a few years. He appears as a detective during all those years, so likely that's what is required to be quoted in a newspaper on behalf of the P.D.
He appears to be Oliver E. Ball, lived 03 May 1911 (the year my own father was born) to 24 Aug 1983. Appears that his first wife b. 03 Nov 1915 died 04 Feb 1968 and he remarried 08 Jun 1973 and divorced 16 Jun 1981. His first wife is buried with him.
It was a post by boykin (sp?) on another Smith forum that clued me into his boxing ref career. Apparently well regarded in that field.
It's not much info that really relates to what I'm doing with The Book; but when I can place a person in time and space then they gain more relevance.
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I have Oliver's middle initial as O.
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02-21-2018, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols
It was a post by boykin (sp?) on another Smith forum that clued me into his boxing ref career. Apparently well regarded in that field.
It's not much info that really relates to what I'm doing with The Book; but when I can place a person in time and space then they gain more relevance.
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Hey Red,
Thanks for the credit. I am kinda strange, in that many times when I buy something that I know little about, I will spend some time finding out information. That is what I did here when I got my O. Ball holster. It was interesting and fun doing the research. Here is the thread that I started and a copy of the O. Ball I researched:
O. Ball Holster
After I won the holster, I tried doing some internet research on him. If any of you folks have an Ancestry.com account maybe you can find more info. I did find a few interesting things about him. Here is what I could find in addition to what I posted in the first post:
1. Below is a picture from 1943 that came from here:
Oliver Ball, Golden Gloves instructor . UTA Libraries
2. Apparently he was very involved with Golden Gloves. In the early 40's he was an instructor.
3. I found an article from the Amarillo Daily News from January 20, 1949 that talked about him being a Golden Gloves referee:
Amarillo Daily News from Amarillo, Texas on January 20, 1949 . Page 12
"The others, who will alternate with Andrews, the chief referee, in the ring, are Oliver Ball of Fort Worth, for several years one of the top referees at the state Golden Gloves, and J. C, Oakley of Amarillo. Oakley served efficiently during the 1947 and 1948 regional tourneys, Contestants thus are assured of impartial, expert judging, of alert ringwork, and of quick but wise decisions whenever the situation indicates a bout should be halted."
4. I found a story from the Chicago Daily Tribune from March 19, 1970 from a bout that took place in Las Vegas here:
Chicago Tribune - Historical Newspapers
"Thompson's "thing" is the knockout. The colorful heavyweight did it the T.K.O. way tonight, bombing Jesus Malonado of Elizabeth, N.J., so relentlessly that Referee Oliver Ball stopped the fight 44 seconds after it began."
5. I found another story that talked about him being a Golden Gloves referee in 1976 here:
Danny Adams - BoxRec
"The amazing thing about Adams, in 1977, was his ability to box again. In December of 1976, he was shot in the heart and lung during an attempted gas-station robbery, where he had been set up by a "friend." Adams had given the friend money to go inside the station to pay for gas, while Adams pumped it in his car. The so-called "friend," taking such a long time to pay, caused Adams to go inside the station to see what was the delay. When Adams got inside, he saw the "friend" with a gun pointed toward the station's attendant. As Adams confronted the "friend," the frighten attendant pulled a gun and shot him, believing that "the two crooks started arguing over who was going to get the loot." Adams recovered from his bullet wounds enough to resume boxing in two months, and after the robbery situation was cleared up by the great investigation of Fort Worth police detective, Lt. Oliver Ball, who was also a Golden Gloves referee."
So, apparently he was a referee for quite a while. First at the state level, then (I guess) the national level.
We know he died in 1983.
Larry
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02-21-2018, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil
I have Oliver's middle initial as O.
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I was unable to locate any documents that gave his middle initial. But I was also unable to locate any other Oliver Ball who died 1983 in TX. Often other documents will mention a wife, or a change of city, that points to someone being the right person or the wrong one. Hasn't happened here. As Boykin points out, he appears often in the press as a boxing referee; and often noted there that he is a detective with the PD; but that other kind of 'steering' info hasn't appeared yet. So I have said "appears to be Oliver E. Ball" but can't be certain.
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02-21-2018, 07:20 PM
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Wow, interesting information, especially since I’m a Cowtown boy.
Red: what is “The Book”?
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02-21-2018, 08:14 PM
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His granddaughter is a FWPD Officer.
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02-21-2018, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtcarm
Wow, interesting information, especially since I’m a Cowtown boy.
Red: what is “The Book”?
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John Witty (turnerriver) and I have been asked to write the sequel to Packing Iron as a coffee table book covering the 'holstory' of gunleather (not plastic or fabric) of the 20th century. There being no title selected, I simply call it The Book.
John owns an unsurpassed -- and unsurpassable -- collection of near-new holsters that span the 20th century. And he is quite a still photographer; so is providing the pics.
My contribution is 'been there, done that' during the last half of that century, industry-wise; and masses of materials about the men and women (including a few teens) who made it all possible.
There will have to be a nod to those who didn't create, but influenced holstory; such as Bill Jordan. And those who built but didn't create -- I call them Indiana Jones, an inside joke -- because their appearances made no difference in how holstory turned out; people such as, IMHO, Capt. Hardy.
And of course the designers, of which I have not-so-humbly placed myself amongst. Weren't very many of us who designed but did not really build; Bruce Nelson is another example, whose designs affected holstory but was not really a player on the build side.
I'm having a ball, personally; waiting for my publisher to clear the decks for it. Little bits of substantial information dribble over the threshold in the meantime, that I'm glad didn't miss an arbitrary deadline (my wife's). :-).
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02-21-2018, 08:34 PM
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That holster shows a lot of frame. I think it may be for a three-inch J-frame.
If for a K-frame without stretching the leather, try a M-13 or M-65 with three-inch barrel.
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02-21-2018, 10:14 PM
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This little thread has become very, very interesting. I searched for info on O. Ball and found very little. The research exhibited in this thread is fantastic. Makes me want to see more of his work... so if you have them... feel free to show'em.
As to the dilemma of what fits my holster.... checked my K frames in it a little more and found they are fairly loose fitting. At first I was only concerned with the depth... I am convinced it was made for a 4" gun, maybe a Colt Official Police. It was a common issue revolver of the day. Any thoughts on this?
I am off tomorrow and think I'll take it with me and go Pawn shop crawling to see if I can find a match.
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02-21-2018, 11:11 PM
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A Colt OP is a slightly larger overall revolver than a K Frame, so that may be a fit.
Try a Service Six if you get a chance.
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03-01-2018, 02:02 PM
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got it
Well I finally found my O.Ball companion.... a M&P .38 SPL
IMG_0805.jpg IMG_0808.jpg
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03-01-2018, 06:35 PM
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Made for each other !
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03-01-2018, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray
3 1/2-inch .357 Magnum (N-Frame)
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What is the little scalloped bit sticking out to the left of the O Ball stamp?
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03-01-2018, 09:26 PM
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It's just where the floral tooling is carried around from the front of the holster.
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03-02-2018, 08:16 AM
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This is one of the most interesting holsters I own, made by O. Ball.
Regards,
turnerriver
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03-02-2018, 09:37 AM
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that Hammerless Colt holster looks like NOS. A 1911 configuration of a Tom Three Persons--- paddle rig.
I like it.
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03-02-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
that Hammerless Colt holster looks like NOS. A 1911 configuration of a Tom Three Persons--- paddle rig.
I like it.
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I know I can be quite a wet blanket; apologies in advance then. There really was a 1911 configuration of the Tom Threepersons and oddly, was not done this way. Have a look at the Brill for the 1911: Sam Myres 'Tom Threepersons' for the 1911 was configured the same way (minus the fender and cuff).
Nevertheless I do understand what you're suggesting and quite agree. Several Texas makers had a go at modernising the 1911 holster with welts that grasp the pistol frame only ahead of the trigger guard. It's understood that this did not begin until the 1950s. Brill could've done it so much earlier if they'd paid attention to what had actually been invented a half century earlier.
On the other hand, if you were to look up the definition of the Threepersons style, as parlayed about the internet, that description is not in it (the definition). Go on, have some fun with it; one can build a holster that is NOT a Threepersons but meets the definition; and one that IS a Threepersons that does not. One of these definitions is on the BATFE web page devoted to Tom; no, not because they're LEOs and not holster makers -- their definition is consistent with all the others you'll find (think John Bianchi, Charlie Askins, Bob Arganbright, Skeeter Skelton, everybody). We know better here thanks to the exchange of information that we enjoy; but virtually no one else realises (think El Paso Saddlery).
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03-02-2018, 09:23 PM
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Red,
El Paso Saddlery shows these holsters as Tom Three Persons. I have been eyeing one for my 5" 1911
elpasosaddlery_1920_tom3-400x400.jpg
If this is not the case... please show me what a 1911 Three Persons looks like.
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03-02-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
Red,
El Paso Saddlery shows these holsters as Tom Three Persons. I have been eyeing one for my 5" 1911
Attachment 328536
If this is not the case... please show me what a 1911 Three Persons looks like.
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As mentioned, quite like a Brill for the 1911 less the cuff:
brill auto (9).jpg
Myres' 1931 Threepersons holster page; the auto (because it is designed consistently with his other holsters designated for autos on following pages) is at bottom right and also has a safety strap:
1931 threepersons.jpg
The best interpretation of the Threepersons concept on a 1911 that I've ever seen (I think the maker is unknown?). But it does not fit the original definition set by Myres; nor the contemporary 'generally accepted' definition either. Instead it fits the most modern definition developed on this forum:
ostrowski (1).JPG
Homework for you or anyone: find a definition on the net, of a Threepersons holster (not on this forum, that would be cheating) and we'll explore what it takes to 'correct' it -- both for the revolver, and for the auto, and for its historical context. No more answers or hints until all homework is turned in :-).
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Last edited by rednichols; 03-02-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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03-02-2018, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
Red,
El Paso Saddlery shows these holsters as Tom Three Persons. I have been eyeing one for my 5" 1911
Attachment 328536
If this is not the case... please show me what a 1911 Three Persons looks like.
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The real tragedy, is that EPS makes that Threepersons auto for the Glock: the strap has no hammer to block against a discharge. I think they cover the trigger -- which, like the strap, also doesn't keep it from being discharged in the holster. Which is why I don't make Glock holsters at all: the pistol can't be made safe as on a 1911 et al.
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03-03-2018, 04:00 AM
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This is what a 1911 Threepersons looks like. It is called a Brill-Persons
and was made by my friend Red Nichols. He also made the Ranger belt.
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03-03-2018, 10:29 AM
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interesting..
......and my education continues. So, Red, according to your Myers catalog page I have a relatively close Three Persons design for my Commander.. neither holster in the attached pic has a Makers mark...
IMG_0246.jpg
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03-03-2018, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
......and my education continues. So, Red, according to your Myers catalog page I have a relatively close Three Persons design for my Commander.. neither holster in the attached pic has a Makers mark...
Attachment 328606
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And both are handsomely made :-). One would think such a maker would mark them.
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03-03-2018, 06:40 PM
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agreed there ole boy
both are the base of my BBQ rigs, when Snubbyfan finishes my belt I will post more picks to ... well. show off.
Last edited by DevilDog72; 03-03-2018 at 06:47 PM.
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04-04-2018, 08:18 PM
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Red,
I received the belt and cartridge carrier.... thank you kind sir. I will post pic's of my Oliver Ball with the belt and carrier..... and the pre-war M&P I bought for it.
I will also post some pics using the belt and carrier with other hand guns and holsters I own.
Thank you Red. The forth coming pics are for you.
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04-07-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog72
This little thread has become very, very interesting. I searched for info on O. Ball and found very little. The research exhibited in this thread is fantastic. Makes me want to see more of his work... so if you have them... feel free to show'em.
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I got my second Oliver Ball holster this week. Here is the thread from my first one:
O. Ball Holster
When I got the second one, I thought it was the left-handed twin of the first. It was close. My newest one looks brand new. The second one is smaller than the first and the first was small! The first one would fit a Colt Detective Special. Here is the second one by itself and a picture showing it with the first. I don't know what it fits, but my Colt 1908 Vest Pocket kinda fits in it. I don't think that is what it was made for though. I think most likely a revolver. So......what do you folks think? Thanks.
Larry
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04-15-2018, 12:40 PM
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Well just took some pics of my O.Ball holster that I have with the belt and cartridge slide Red, so generously, sent me. Alas the belt is too wide, 1.75", to fit my holster. That said I do have a floral carved Mexico holster that does fit. As promised a few pics of same.....
IMG_0911.jpgIMG_0910.jpg
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