Do I see a rivet at the top of the welt on the 457? Or are my eyes just
messing with me?

Here, on the left, is my 457 and there is no rivet where they show one
in your catalog. This is kind of an old timer. It has the elongated HHH
maker's mark.

2nd from left is my black 457. It is a little newer and has the football
shaped maker's mark.

3rd from left is a 459. Only difference is the added "dog ear".

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In Omnia Paratus

All great points. The 459 with the hammer protector was introduced in Heiser's No 50 catalog that was printed for 1951; Keyston Bros. just having acquired Heiser from The Denver upon Ewald Heiser's death in '49, car crash. 1950 is also significant (besides being my birth year) because Evaluators Ltd was founded then just after the General retired from the Army also in '49; and the 459 appears often with the Evaluators Ltd logo imprinted on its backside. Turnerriver has shared with me a letter between Clyde Parr at Heiser and the General, in which the latter asks that the 'FBI' letters be ground off the stamp; and indeed these holsters are found both ways :-).

Ditto the rivet at the top of the welt; the 457 at least is found both ways; but because of the welt and the return stitching there, is unnecessary.

fbi (1).jpg fbi (7).jpg

But needed on a holster without a welt because the 'empty' seam leaves the stitching in peril of being ripped out on a Threeperson because of human nature with holstered pistols; to wit:

lean.jpg

It's an example of why we designer/makers must not slavishly copy our predecessors work; but instead understand the science of the designs. When we at Bianchi tried rivets at the top of our welts because of the ripping early '70s, the real answer was to switch to nylon thread! And Safariland then did the same. Otherwise we'd all be using rivets to this day.

When thinking about the timing of the hammer guard being added to the 457 to create the 459 (their correct numbers only when the finish is 'plain', different first digit for carved and for basket) consider that Hank Sloan included the hammer guard in his holster that he notified his FBI employers about, in 1964 -- and the designer of the 457 in '39 was Al Kippen, who created the 459 for Heiser then cofounded Colorado Saddlery; then was at J.M. Bucheimer 1954 onwards to work with Sloan on his prototypes early 1960s.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

Heiser marked Mexican carved holsters with 7 for the first number.
The Mexican carved, oxblood, Heiser on the left is marked 757.
The Mexican carved, brown, Heiser on the right, with "dog ear",
is marked 759. My memory isn't what it once was, but I don't
remember ever seeing a basket weave Heiser. I sold both of the
holsters, shown here, a while back. (Just call me crazy)

UPDATE: I went to the search function and looked up Heiser
basket weave holster. Sure enough, bracebeamer had acquired
and posted a basket weave Heiser. Marked 711.

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In Omnia Paratus

Basketweave Heisers aren’t that common, I see more floral carved examples than basketweave ones. The number prefix for them is 5. 4xx is plain, 5xx is basketweave & 7xx is floral carved.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

I wonder why bracebeamer's basket weave Heiser has the 7 prefix?
711. Did Heiser make some changes in numbering? Or perhaps
Heiser made a mistake. I have seen mistakes they made before
and strike over the mistaken number with the correct number.

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In Omnia Paratus

That’s my guess too, a mistake that slipped by and didn’t get corrected.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

Where did Alfonso Pineda fit in? I've seen his holsters that look VERY like Bianchi products. He was n Los Angeles.

We need to discuss the so-called thumb break holster, like Safariland's Model 29. That's my preference, for most needs. Gaylord was the first maker I saw promoting it. Did it come earlier?

According to our resident Holstorian Red Nichols, the thumb snap, or
thumb break if you prefer, was created by A. J. Kippen, along with his
employer G. R. Bucheimer, in 1956-1957.

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In Omnia Paratus

Anyone who has had the lining of a nice suit jacket shredded by the
hammer spur on the revolver knows the value of the hammer guard
(that I refer to as a "dog ear"). Although much discussed on here,
I don't think we ever arrived at a definite conclusion as to who created
the hammer guard. I wonder why it wasn't patented?

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In Omnia Paratus

Its first appearance was in a Myres catalog of 1939.

1939 myres (10).jpg hammer guard (3).jpg

Because my catalog image collection for Myres is very incomplete, the model could have appeared earlier (turnerriver please correct me). All other hammer guard holsters that have appeared so far are by later makers (folks like Oliver Ball, and John Bianchi, and Wally Wolfram).

The thumbsnap was patented, as Phil says, by J.M. Bucheimer. It does appear in their own catalog, though, of '55:

1955.jpg

And this would have defeated the patent; and 'own goal' of sorts, because 'no prior publication anywhere in the world prior to the filing by applicant' is the USPTO requirement.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I don’t have any earlier depictions of the hammer guard than the 1940 Myres catalog, the 1934 catalog doesn’t show it.
This Brill may be as early as the 1930’s or considerably later.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

The hammer guard discussion is not off-topic because they indeed are found on many Threepersons-construction holsters. And prior writers have needlessly posited that a SAA deep in its turn-of-the-century holster can't be drawn as quickly as from a Threepersons: it's all in the clearance at the mouth of the holster, at the front; and full hand clearance for the grip; and carry angle and height. And where the belt is worn! At the turn of the century, and later including Tom Threepersons himself, the belt was worn around the pelvis and not at the waist; it was the Texas Rangers only who required it be carried high on the waist itself.

1928 cunningham.jpg

ranger brown 1906.jpg Texas Ranger Brown, who is in an image with Texas Ranger White (later better known as 'Doc' White of Treasury with Threepersons himself, then with the BOI and when it became the FBI).

Tom's own hangs quite straight, and quite low for what we call a Threepersons today. Instead it is the Brill, shown in turnerriver's image, that folded the top of the belt loop tunnel just as close to the trigger guard as possible, and tilted the revolver with a positive caster of 25 degrees or so. This is precisely how the FBI's holsters were turned out beginning in 1935, by Myres first and then by Heiser nearly ten years after Sam. The hammer guard followed quite soon for Myres but yet another ten years later for Heiser; 1950 and so their version appears to have been inspired by the General at Evaluators Ltd.

eps genuine (3).jpg Now try to tell me that Tom couldn't have drawn just as quickly from this old El Paso Saddlery / Shelton-Payne Arms design that preceded his -- when the belt is worn quite low.

Anyway, my point: the Brill with that 'tongue' at the mouth isn't really 'right' because that version of the hammer guard requires that the revolver be lifted higher whereas the Myres with guard, the Heiser with guard, and the Bucheimer with guard leaves that forward edge as low as without the guard. Of course we're expecting that 'real' gunfighters didn't lift their revolvers any higher than they had to; images of Jelly Bryce who was as 'real' as they come (killed 23 men) show that part of the FBI crouch was to lower the entire holster instead, by dropping it away from the rising pistol.

1945 bryce (1).jpg

JB went a step further, after copying the Heiser 459 line-for-line otherwise he added a second sight guard flap on the inside:

bianchi - heiser comparo.jpg

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

turnerriver's scans reminded me that I have this old S.D. Myres #624.
It is your basic Tom Threepersons with a couple of modifications. The
hammer guard and mine also has the retention strap.
By the way, the gun is my model 67 Combat Masterpiece.
The Silver Dollar buckle on the lizard belt is my birth year (1935).
Wow, that reminded me that I'm sneaking up on 85.

This is a great thread. Very educational. Thank you Red, and John too.

On a personal note, being mentioned in the same sentence as turnerriver
by Red, and in the same sentence as Red by turnerriver, is quite an
(undeserved) honor for me. Thank you both.

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In Omnia Paratus

Let's remember that the original, official (so labelled by Myres in 1930) Threepersons Style Holsters were available with a safety strap. So although Tom's own holster was (is) strapless a holster is 'still a Threepersons' with a strap:

1931 myres (3).jpg

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

So, even though Bucheimer-Clark came very close to replicating your
original Tom Threepersons with their Rebel, their Federal Man could
be called an authentic T3P if one preferred a higher ride and a retention
strap.

Thank you for the catalog scans, by the way.

The dirty old Rebel at the bottom of the page is supposed to be here
Friday. I will clean it up, make some photos, and post a short story
about it.

Photo upper left is the Bucheimer-Clark Rebel.

Photo upper right is the Bucheimer Federal Man.

Photo at bottom of the page is the Rebel #98 which I hope
will fit my SAA Colt replica.

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In Omnia Paratus

Yes, the Federal Man is absolutely a Threepersons :-). My view of the Rebel is that it is the most like Tom's own, because of the sculpting of the mouth after he trimmed his, and of the muzzle (notice how it is almost a full 'smile'?) vs the Federal Man's, and the long, straight drop which Tom's is and Myres' is not.

When you get your new holster and clean it up, and post pics with your revolver, I'll put up images of Tom's alongside and point out just how 'exact' the two are. It was introduced while Tom was still living, in the '60s; and Bucheimer-Clark was in So Cal vs the East. So it's not impossible that Earl Clark had a look-see at Tom's own; Tom's wife Lorene was always hunting a chance to make a buck off his reputation (in 1964 a TV movie appeared titled 'Threepersons' and she and Tom retired on what was 25 grand in today's buying power, paid to them by the producers).

The only maker I know of, that called these styles 'Threepersons' in the 20th century, was Don Hume. In my time at Bianchi (20 years), JB never referred to them as such. These are things I've had to learn on my own since then.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I was reading this post again this morning and remembered
this little 459 that John (turnerriver) let me have several years
ago.

My picture doesn't show the stamping on the back too well,
but in the little box it says:
EVALUATORS
QUANTICO, VA.
QUICK DRAW
Quite obvious that the 3 letter blank space in front of quick draw
would have said FBI once upon a time, had it not been ground out.
Down below the little box is says
4 5 9

C H 2
That I suppose means Chief with 2" barrel.

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In Omnia Paratus

We have enough information now to say that Evaluators holsters are 1950s and 1960s only; so it strikes me that this one does not have the 'waist' that Heisers normally have even on the very short holsters:

fbi.jpg

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I'm still trying to learn about this style of holster and it gets costlier all the time.
Question on the Threeperson style holster does it matter if it has a retention strap and were it's located?
This Mixson I have looks like a threeperson style but the retention strap is located differently then some I've seen.

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Here’s a scan of the letter from Evaluators’ General Van Orden to C.E. Parr of Heiser asking him to grind off the FBI on the Evaluators stamp. Crump was supplying the FBI with holsters, Evaluators Ltd. & Heiser were trying to get that business.
Note the discussion on the new Chiefs Special revolver.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

I looked at my EVALUATORS QUANTICO, VA. FBI QUICK DRAW holster
and it does have FBI so does this mean that it came from H H Heiser? There is no other stamp on the holster but it does fit a Chief Special 2" even though it shows a Terrier in the picture.

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Gun Safety is no accident.

Then you've missed the point of the lines in the General's letter: 'OUR stamp'. Notice it's not a Heiser stamp but instead is a stamp made for Evaluators' holsters.

So the significance of with/without 'FBI' goes to date of manufacture; 'without' is for Evaluators but after the letter, 'with' is still for Evaluators but before the letter.

At his point Heiser, now under Keyston Bros control (we can't prove that money changed hands; and Heiser had become the D.B.A. of Keyston only in Denver, which is to say that Heiser no longer was a separate company at all) was shifting to making OPH -- other people's holsters. That included holsters with the Keyston mark, those with the Sportsman mark (also Keyston), those with the Heiser mark, those with the Fred Mueller mark, those with the Powder River mark (Keyston); that I know of).

It's also clear to me, that it was Evaluators who came up with the need for the 459 at all. It appears exactly when Evaluators does, 1950. I think it's most likely that Crump is competing for the business but not able to deliver, as opposed to getting the business and falling behind.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

Richard C. Coffman was an FBI Agent from 1950 to 1980. In his book
EYE WITNESS TO J. EDGAR HOOVER'S FBI, he said at the time of his
training (1950) they had a choice of Colt's Official Police or Smith &
Wesson's Military & Police (later designated model 10). They both had
4" barrels. Richard chose the Colt.

On pages 291-292 he gives good description of the issue holster, but
does not name the maker. From his description, I believe it was an
Evaluators 459, made by Heiser.

My 459, shown below, was not made for Evaluators, but it is a Heiser.
A previous owner had put a retention strap on it, but I removed it.
It was a solution to a non-existing problem. May have been made
for Colt's OP, but my Model 19 fits just fine.

By the way Red, what is a "waist"???

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In Omnia Paratus