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Old 05-28-2018, 07:59 AM
swrevo swrevo is offline
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I have a pre 27 3.5 and I would like to know what was the most common holster that was used during the 50s, for that smith, that was not a duty holster?
Any thoughts?
Thanks for your help.
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:19 AM
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During the 1950's the one holster that was available for the most pistols and revolvers in most of the larger gun shops was the Hunter Holster. Yes you could order better holsters but if you bought a new gun, you could usually find a new holster that would fit and they all looked the same regardless of size.


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Old 06-01-2018, 04:41 AM
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Find a vintage Myres threepersons on the auction sites. Can be a bit difficult to work out frame size from a pic.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:56 AM
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Lawrence had the #120 Keith and many other "field" type holsters.

I found a brand new in the package #120 for my 6" pre-27 on eBay a few years ago. They are out there...

Bob
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:39 AM
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The most admired and acquired by FBI and other LEOs was the Myres
#614 Tom Threepersons. Mine is shown below with my model 29 with a
4" barrel. The holster was probably made for a 3.5" barrel as you can
see where the front of the trigger guard meets the welt. They are not
easy to find, but watch the auction sites and one will come up sooner
or later. Maybe.
Some of the makers here on our forum make replicas. Doc Barranti
and Lobo come to mind.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:11 AM
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Suggest that you contact Mark and Matt at Lobo Gun Leathers. They now own the company.

During my ownership we made thousands of Threepersons-style holsters. One of my projects (about 10 years ago) was recreating the original carving pattern, based upon a photograph of Tom Threepersons' personal holster which is now in a private collection. For those interested in this historic holster design it seemed natural to provide the closest possible recreation of the original. Lobo can also provide a holster made specifically for the 3.5" barrel, not the usual 4" version that so many makers suggest for your revolver.

Best regards.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
One of my projects (about 10 years ago) was recreating the original carving pattern, based upon a photograph of Tom Threepersons' personal holster which is now in a private collection.
FYI, and I've mentioned it before, The Autry holds Tom's revolver and 'that' Myres holster; and the holster itself it holds as being Lone Wolf Gonzaullas, not Tom's. There is only one surviving original Tom Threepersons holster and that's the one that I hold, which I bought from the widow of the chap who received it personally from Tom in 1934 at the Prescott rodeo.

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Tom's LEO service began and ended before Myres was in the holster business; so 1920-1927 for Tom, and 1931 onwards for Myres with his Tom Threepersons Style Holster range including the No. 614 based on Tom's original (which I believe was made by Egland in Douglas, where Tom was both in a rodeo as his alter ego Tom Three Persons winner of the Calgary rodeo of 1912, and joined the Army, both in 1916).

The Autry is providing images for The Book, of the revolver and badge of Tom's that they hold, and of the holster of Gonzaullas that they hold, which will cost me/us more than a low-budget operation like ours would wish; and if they'll allow us to re-post them here we will. What's been missing all these years, of all three items, is the other side of each!
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:23 PM
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Pre Model 27 3.5" holster of the 1950s:
Lewis L.A. Police Special Holster (the best plainclothes/off duty holster EVER!)
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
FYI, and I've mentioned it before, The Autry holds Tom's revolver and 'that' Myres holster; and the holster itself it holds as being Lone Wolf Gonzaullas, not Tom's. There is only one surviving original Tom Threepersons holster and that's the one that I hold, which I bought from the widow of the chap who received it personally from Tom in 1934 at the Prescott rodeo.

Attachment 342874 Attachment 342875

Tom's LEO service began and ended before Myres was in the holster business; so 1920-1927 for Tom, and 1931 onwards for Myres with his Tom Threepersons Style Holster range including the No. 614 based on Tom's original (which I believe was made by Egland in Douglas, where Tom was both in a rodeo as his alter ego Tom Three Persons winner of the Calgary rodeo of 1912, and joined the Army, both in 1916).

The Autry is providing images for The Book, of the revolver and badge of Tom's that they hold, and of the holster of Gonzaullas that they hold, which will cost me/us more than a low-budget operation like ours would wish; and if they'll allow us to re-post them here we will. What's been missing all these years, of all three items, is the other side of each!
Red Nichols is a treasure of information in all matters relating to holsters and leather gear. His knowledge exceeds anything available in a dozen libraries, and spans at least five decades of experience.

At the risk of being impertinent, I will offer a bit more information for those interested in the Tom Threepersons history.

Tom Threepersons was born near Vinita, Oklahoma in about 1887. His heritage included both Anglo and Native American ancestry. Just about the turn of the 20th Century the family moved north to Alberta, Canada, and engaged in cattle ranching in the Calgary area. Tom's father and a hired man were murdered by cattle thieves when Tom was in his early teens. The culprits were arrested, then admitted to bail and released. Tom confronted them in a saloon, shooting and killing them both. He was arrested, tried, and acquitted.

Threepersons later joined the Northwest Mounted Police. During his service he reportedly interdicted a bank robbery in Calgary, shooting and killing several bad guys. He also is credited with stopping a train robbery, also involving some shooting of outlaws. Threepersons and another officer took the trail of a criminal gang in early winter, engaged in a shoot-out that left his partner dead, and Tom was forced by deep snowfall to abandon their horses and continue pursuit on foot into the Yukon Territory. The outlaws were holed up in a cabin when Threepersons found them, and all 3 fell to his guns.

Threepersons later returned to the US. In about 1916 he signed on with the US Expeditionary Forces as a muleskinner (packing and handling mules for the US Army). At some point he was badly injured by a mule kicking him in the head, resulting in severe headaches for the remainder of his life. He is reported to have relied upon good stiff Stetson hats to protect his head for the rest of his life. He turned up in San Antonio, Texas where he worked as a police officer. Later he moved on to El Paso, Texas where he was a police officer, city detective, and was appointed as a mounted US Customs officer serving the border area. During the early prohibition era Tom was run down by a truck carrying smuggled liquor. At about that time he had a holster made by "Tio Sam" Myres, S.D. Myres Saddlery Company. Whether that holster was of his own design, or was a creation by Sam Myres, it became a standard of North American law enforcement and sportsmens' use for decades, and continues to be produced by several companies today.

Tom Threepersons later signed on to manage a cattle ranch in Chihuahua, Mexico. While there he confronted several cattle rustlers, and in the ensuing battle succeeded in killing them. He was arrested and jailed, escaped jail, and returned to the US. Settling in the Silver City, New Mexico area, Threepersons was a cattle rancher and businessman until the 1960's. At one point Hollywood expressed some interest in making a movie about his life, an idea he rejected with comments to the effect that he just didn't like those Hollywood people very much. Tom Threepersons lies at rest in the Masonic Cemetary at Silver City, New Mexico.

Tom Three Persons was a Canadian of "First Nations" heritage and a noted rodeo champion. During the time period being discussed he was repeatedly confused with Tom Threepersons, the notorious American gunfighter, and he strongly denied any connection. This appears to be nothing more than a coincidence in name and association with the Calgary, Alberta area during a similar time period.

The Threepersons' style holster was unusual for its period (circa 1920) for several reasons. The design utilized minimal leather, just enough to secure the revolver during moderate activities, with the grip-frame fully exposed for rapid access. Moderately high ride (by standards of the day). The trigger guard was fully exposed. The holster featured a modest butt-forward cant, rather than the (then standard) straight drop. Elements of the Threepersons design can be seen in many subsequent developments through the 1980's, and continuing on to today.

I have recited this from memory rather than relying upon records, so there may be some minor discrepancies. Regardless, Tom Threepersons was a legend of the early 20th Century, and his holster design remains a classic.

G. Gordon Liddy (of Watergate fame, or infamy) was a FBI agent during the 1950's. In his autobiography "Will" Liddy discusses his association with, and training by, Special Agents John Paul Jeter and Wayne Bratner, both old time Cherokee Strip lawmen and gunfighters recruited by J. Edgar Hoover to teach gunfighting skills to FBI agents. Liddy carried a 3.5" Pre-Model 27 in a Threepersons' style holster.

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Old 06-02-2018, 03:47 AM
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Darn it, Lobo, that's nearly all incorrect. There was no confusion between the Blood Indian and the Cherokee; Tom himself took the identity of the Blood to enter a rodeo in 1916 (as Tom Three Persons), then used that to join the U.S. Army (as Tom T. Persons), then used that new identity that the Army issued him to continue his life (changing the spelling to Tom Threepersons). He did not ever spend any time in Alberta, taking that connection from the Blood Indian who was a Canadian citizen and indeed won the Calgary Stampede in 1912. This is all heavily documented; what you've repeated is from the legends that Tom and his second wife sold to writers like Cunningham and Arnold to pay the bills.

The legendary friend he is said to have avenged, Bill White, does not appear to have existed. Instead the friend first receives a name in the legend the year after Tom serves with Doc White at Treasury; so likely that's where the White name came from. Tom was illiterate (the Army notes he could only sign his name) and he did not give any interviews because he spoke very little; instead his wife would give the interviews whilst he was doing the dishes (set out in several Oren Arnold articles).

If he ever spent time in San Antonio, it was nothing to do with being an LEO. The sequence was Army 1916, civilian blacksmith 1920, El Paso P.D. 1920, Treasury 1922, back to EPPD 1922, furloughed from EPPD to Cudahy Ranch 1923, then Customs 1923, then Sheriff's deputy 1925, asked to leave deputy Dec 1927. The end. Then at Heart Bar Cross ranch until 1929 when he sold his guns to Power who died 1931. His own ranch from 1930 until he retired 1958. Died 1969 (believed to have been born 1889, his tombstone states ten years later) after selling his last gun in '68. ALL of the facts about Tom came from the Blood Indian: year of birth, height, weight, schooling, Alberta, all of it.

Tom was with Treasury during Prohibition and Myres did not make such holsters until the 1930s; instead from a one hundred page saddlery catalogue of 1922 he had a few scabbard with enclosed trigger guards. Some legends confuse the 'tomato can' legend with the Threepersons holster; but that tomato can is correctly associated with the first metal-reinforced Border Patrol holster of the '30s; and generally associated with Charlie Askins (who by the way, gave Tio Sam his nickname).

Hopefully he really was Cherokee; certainly all three of his wives were, and there was a monetary and real property benefit to being Cherokee circa 1900 because it was one of the five 'civilised' tribes shifted into Indian Territory, then out again when it became part of the State of Oklahoma (Jelly Bryce was from a tribe in the western part of the State that then was called Oklahoma Territory vs. Indian Territory) in 1907. Cherokee were given land; and unable to prove he was Cherokee, he relied on the benefits of being married to those women who could prove it (Susie, Lorene, and Rose, all appear on the Cherokee Rolls as required).

The real Tom Three Persons, who was a Blood Indian in Calgary, died in 1949 after being trampled in a stampede of his own horses on the Blood Reservation in 1946. He learned of 'our' Tom's scam in 1928 and threatened to sue, because he was shown an article that appeared in a London magazine that said Tom Threepersons was a killer (and he was Tom Threepersons of Alberta after all). As a reservation Indian this was understandably libellous -- he wasn't permitted even to be armed. Neither was he permitted to leave the reservation there without a permit from the Indian Agent. The Blood Indian was a prosperous horse rancher and his herd sold for a half-million in 2018 dollars, in 1950.

The legends spread by Askins and Skelton are good fun but they aren't correct. It appears that Bob McNellis of El Paso Saddlery spread some of these tales about Tom; certainly they appear in a 1988 article about McNellis' company that appeared in American Rifleman.

We've (that's not the royal we) done the research and they didn't; they were working from a scrapbook that had belonged to Tom, held by a collector and loaned out, which contained newspaper articles that Cunningham and Arnold had written. But they didn't have the resources to investigate, and now several authors (I can think of a half dozen) have written the real story of the two different Indians.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:19 AM
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I suppose that the main problem with legends is that they become legendary!

I bow to the encyclopedic knowledge of the Holstorian in Australia.

Best regards.
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Old 06-02-2018, 10:39 AM
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I suppose that the main problem with legends is that they become legendary!
When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:40 PM
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Will this answer my question? Any idea when this Lawrence was made? I scored this on ebay.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:45 PM
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I believe Lawrence started using 3 digit size codes in the 1960s, so
your holster would probably pre-date that. It probably fits right in
the time frame you want.
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:22 AM
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I picked up a Myres 624 dog ear with a butchered welt a while back. Doc Barranti was kind enough to restore it for me, as they don't seem to come along very often.
I was looking for something to fit a 2" K frame, but as this one was marked MAG 3 1\2", I was forced to track down a pre-27 to fit it.


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Old 06-03-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
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Will this answer my question? Any idea when this Lawrence was made? I scored this on ebay.
Phil is right, Lawrence started using the 3 digit size code in 1963-4, your holster was made sometime from the late 1940s to 1963.
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