Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Gun Leather & Carry Gear
o

Notices

Gun Leather & Carry Gear All Holster and Gun Leather Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:46 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default Avenge(r) is Sweet

The first of the Avenger-style holsters came out of the Bianchi stable in 1977 or so, and was followed by a host of copies (at least one of which, Sparks, claimed to have been first with theirs -- ten years later). Here's a partial 'list' in pics, in sequence. They're all marked. Not shown is one I did for Assault Systems in a hybrid fabric/synthetic leather.

20180530_102517.jpg

20180530_102551.jpg

Note that only the last one, which is an extreme sophistication of the original Avenger, is the only one with a slide guard -- which was also invented in the '70s (I believe by Gordon Davis). There is a HP there, and a Glock, but the rest are all 1911s.

20180530_102631.jpg the earliest

20180530_102645.jpg the latest

All Avengers except mine are very simple beasts consisting of two leather pieces: the body, and something for the belt. Mine are made from 7 leather pieces plus the hardware -- that's called progress.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:53 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

There is a myth that Avengers, or the IWB versions, need metal inside the mouth accent to hold the mouth open. The use of metal there by some makers is simply a holdover from when metal was used in competition holsters; it is neither necessary nor even desirable. The metal can be crushed when going prone with an empty holster and wearing forward of 3:00. Instead, it is the tension of the two layers, which is exaggerated by the gluing and the stitching of the layers, that is created when the assembly is folded that holds the mouth open. For awhile I used a thin layer of polycarbonate there 'just because' (it flexes but can't break in that construction) but discarded it as 'no value added'.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:58 PM
les.b's Avatar
les.b les.b is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 5,372
Likes: 104,949
Liked 22,295 Times in 4,529 Posts
Default

Very nice, Red...as usual we are seeing things that, if we saw them previously, we didn't know what they were...or how they came to be...

Thanks for sharing both the images, and your encyclopedic background information!!

Best Regards, Les
__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:28 PM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 8,002
Likes: 35,764
Liked 29,650 Times in 6,014 Posts
Default

Here is one that I kinda like. It is by Kirkpatrick. They call it
their Texas Strong Side.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_0922.jpg (81.0 KB, 115 views)
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 05-29-2018, 10:21 PM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

I had an old Bianchi Avenger I used with a Colt .45 for decades. Think I sold it some time back at a gun show.
I liked it because it carried the gun very high above the belt line. Some preferred it lower, but it I like 'em high and tight.
My only gripe was that it loosened up over time. Some modern versions have tensioning screws.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 05-30-2018, 03:33 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCeeNC View Post
I had an old Bianchi Avenger I used with a Colt .45 for decades. Think I sold it some time back at a gun show.
I liked it because it carried the gun very high above the belt line. Some preferred it lower, but it I like 'em high and tight.
My only gripe was that it loosened up over time. Some modern versions have tensioning screws.
Both are valid points. This one that I have here for a Commander is loose.

As for the ride height, I think we've learned since then that too-high causes the belt to do more work than it's meant to; perhaps, even capable of. And that was the origin of 'get a good (stiff-as-iron) belt' when a newbie comments he can't get the grip to pull in. But the too-high ride is something that John insisted on.

Long since those days I realised what others knew before us at Bianchi: the ideal ride height for the auto is as low as the knuckle of the second finger can go (so just clearing the belt itself). It's been said before but few makers today have put it together. Not too different, from thinking that a Threepersons 'rides high and exposes the trigger'; instead, what was special was 'entire grip above the belt including that second knuckle'.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 05-30-2018 at 05:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-30-2018, 03:40 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

It's not obvious to any but its inventors, that the Avenger was created to compete with Baker's pancake; which was patented. All the makers quickly worked out how to honour his patent by realising the pancake style in another way.

A fully-realised avenger-style works exactly like a pancake, by keeping one outboard slot, and replacing the other with an outboard loop. Designers make a mistake when they simply 'put a loop on the back' as John Bianchi's does. That method works ideally for a true appendix carry (that is, at 2:00; anything further forward is belly carry) and for crossdraw; and both with the barrel strictly vertical (no caster at all, either positive or negative). Very different when doing a 'strong side' draw with a positive caster of, say, the 24 degrees that I use (which has been used since Myres in the '30s).

My current version (you'll also see it on that Aker from the Nineties in the main images) acknowledges the limitations of the avenger design (which is a tendency to turn the rear sight out) by placing the backside loop well out over the fold of the holster:

avengers study (3).jpg Nichols 'Beat the Devil' at left, John's (holster name keeps changing) on right

avengers study (4).jpg 'Nichols Avenger' for Aker in the '90s, the Galco 'Avenger' I did for them, prior to the Aker, at right

Both the Bianchi by Bianchi, and the Galco by Nichols, have virtually no camber so can have rear loops that are 'just anywhere'; as long as one wears them at 3:00 or 2:00. To be worn at 4:00 and have acceptable concealment and access, there must be positive caster; and then the basic loop won't permit them (concealment and access) to be acceptable.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 05-30-2018 at 03:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:08 AM
s&wchad's Avatar
s&wchad s&wchad is offline
Moderator
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Great Lakes State
Posts: 29,676
Likes: 12,664
Liked 33,580 Times in 7,836 Posts
Default

I've owned a handful of Bianchi "Askins Avengers" over the years. Most of them (maybe all of them) had single male snap on the back and I never really understood its purpose.

Avenge(r) is Sweet-img_2014-jpg

I came across this Avenger at a gun show last winter and had to buy it, even though I don't own a HP that fits it (yet). Now I understand why the retaining strap is usually missing!

Avenge(r) is Sweet-img_2011-jpg

Avenge(r) is Sweet-img_2012-jpg

Avenge(r) is Sweet-img_2013-jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2014.jpg (125.9 KB, 569 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2011.jpg (62.9 KB, 568 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2012.jpg (50.0 KB, 563 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2013.jpg (112.7 KB, 564 views)
__________________
"I also cook."
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:23 AM
ColbyBruce ColbyBruce is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 7,854
Likes: 3,767
Liked 11,624 Times in 3,642 Posts
Default

Red, I have owned several holsters that you designed. This Bianchi Askins Avenger was NOS and cost me $15.00 in 2010. I gave my son this outfit about seven years ago. This BHP was the first .40 S&W I ever bought.

Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 05-30-2018, 10:04 AM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

My Bianchi Avenger also had the male snap, don't recall if I had the hammer strap to go along with it or not. At any rate, I wouldn't have used it because when the situation is dire enough for me to "whip out my iron" I want to do it with the fewest movements.
Others may have preferred safety and retention over speed, and I guess that's why that option was available.
There was no concealed carry available in NC for anyone but police officers in those days, so maximum concealment was my goal to prevent me from being identified as an LEO in social situations.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:13 PM
bulletslap bulletslap is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 1,061
Liked 1,738 Times in 624 Posts
Default

What was Col. Askins role in the holster, if any ?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:47 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletslap View Post
What was Col. Askins role in the holster, if any ?
As did Myres with Askins, this holster was simply named for him. An understandable way to get it some publicity for the new product.

It appears that Charlie Askins actually gave Myres his "tio" same moniker, calling him Uncle Sam in an early 1940s article. Tales to the contrary (that it was a populous christening by the Mexican locals) came from Sam's son Bill in interviews some 20 years later.

Another poster enquired about the removable strap; be aware that 'cocked n locked' was a new and as-yet unapproved method of carry. So the strap was added simply to help prevent lawsuits when carried that way. Even photographed with the hammer down in '77 originally:

77.jpg
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:56 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

The Assault Systems version (aka Shooting Systems at the time, then Elite, now something else). It was for this range for them in the '90s that I invented my now-trademark 'skeleton slots'.

The gadget on the outside is the patented 'PowerBand' that gave adjustable retention to the soft fabrics.

5 elite avenger by nichols (1).jpg

5 elite avenger by nichols (2).jpg

Notice, again, how far the backside loop is over the main fold of the holster.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:58 PM
Shark Bait Shark Bait is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,183
Likes: 9,014
Liked 9,908 Times in 2,006 Posts
Default

I really like the Avenger style holsters. They carry very comfortably. I'd like to find some of the old originals.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:33 PM
bulletslap bulletslap is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 1,061
Liked 1,738 Times in 624 Posts
Default

I have a Galco version for my Glock 19.

Carries well.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:45 PM
muzzleblast muzzleblast is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OBWAT, TN
Posts: 440
Likes: 758
Liked 725 Times in 258 Posts
Default

Red, as always, thank you for sharing your "holstorical" knowledge and unique perspective. I had wondered about the origin of the "slide guard" (aka "sweat shield") and appreciate your acknowledgement of Gordon Davis as the likely originator. I always find it interesting to know who is credited with originating particular holster design features that we now take for granted. Certainly, you have contributed many.

You note: "...the Avenger was created to compete with Baker's pancake; which was patented. All the makers quickly worked out how to honour his patent by realising the pancake style in another way."

The language, construction and intent of the Baker patent has perplexed me. From my perspective, the true innovation and novelty of the design is the two panel construction with a belt slot forward and a belt slot trailing the pocket. The dual "outboard" slot design was markedly differential compared to the standard, Threepersons influenced, or even the Gaylord derived, plain-clothes / concealment holsters of the time.

From Baker's 1971 patent application: "The holster is made of two identical leather pieces joined in overlying relationship. One belt receiving slot is provided through both pieces at the bottom or trigger side of the gun; while two slots are provided at the top of the gun, one slot being at a level below the other. Stitching in the form of closed loops around the slots joins the pieces and forms the gun pocket. With this structure the holster is adaptable for regular or cross-draw for both right or left-hand use."

US3731858A - Gun holster
- Google Patents


Basically, it appears that the patent attorney adopted a "kitchen sink" approach rather than calling out each of the truly novel features in separate patent applications. Very precise, yet somehow missing the target because IMO the true genius of Baker's design was the simplicity of the combination of the trailing and forward slots.

As for the Avenger, I have owned several. I agree that the ride height and the height of the holster mouth above belt line require considerable shoulder rotation and elbow lift in order to get the muzzle to clear leather, particularly with a relatively long barrelled handgun like the 1911 Government Model. However, the design has proved to be comfortable while seated and, for me, keeps the rear sight high enough to generally avoid inadvertent bumps to my elbow during normal activity. Your Bogart series Avenger does take the style to a another level, both functionally and aesthetically.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:45 PM
1chessiefan 1chessiefan is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 115
Likes: 3
Liked 130 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Thank you for continuing to educate us Mr. Nichols. The Avenger holster appears to be very similar to Bruce Nelson’s Professional model. Where does the Professional fit in the history of this style holster?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 05-31-2018, 04:10 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1chessiefan View Post
Thank you for continuing to educate us Mr. Nichols. The Avenger holster appears to be very similar to Bruce Nelson’s Professional model. Where does the Professional fit in the history of this style holster?
The Nelson professional was a crossdraw-only holster, very simple:

1 nelson crossdraw (1).jpg

1 nelson crossdraw (2).jpg

It was derived from this Clark crossdraw introduced in the Thirties (Clark became Bucheimer-Clark in 1959 after E.E. Clark died in the '40s; his son Earl carried on with Bucheimer and then even Safariland:

smith clark (1).jpg

smith clark (3).jpg
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 05-31-2018, 04:23 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
Red, as always, thank you for sharing your "holstorical" knowledge and unique perspective. I had wondered about the origin of the "slide guard" (aka "sweat shield") and appreciate your acknowledgement of Gordon Davis as the likely originator. I always find it interesting to know who is credited with originating particular holster design features that we now take for granted. Certainly, you have contributed many.

You note: "...the Avenger was created to compete with Baker's pancake; which was patented. All the makers quickly worked out how to honour his patent by realising the pancake style in another way."

The language, construction and intent of the Baker patent has perplexed me. From my perspective, the true innovation and novelty of the design is the two panel construction with a belt slot forward and a belt slot trailing the pocket. The dual "outboard" slot design was markedly differential compared to the standard, Threepersons influenced, or even the Gaylord derived, plain-clothes / concealment holsters of the time.

From Baker's 1971 patent application: "The holster is made of two identical leather pieces joined in overlying relationship. One belt receiving slot is provided through both pieces at the bottom or trigger side of the gun; while two slots are provided at the top of the gun, one slot being at a level below the other. Stitching in the form of closed loops around the slots joins the pieces and forms the gun pocket. With this structure the holster is adaptable for regular or cross-draw for both right or left-hand use."

US3731858A - Gun holster
- Google Patents


Basically, it appears that the patent attorney adopted a "kitchen sink" approach rather than calling out each of the truly novel features in separate patent applications. Very precise, yet somehow missing the target because IMO the true genius of Baker's design was the simplicity of the combination of the trailing and forward slots.

As for the Avenger, I have owned several. I agree that the ride height and the height of the holster mouth above belt line require considerable shoulder rotation and elbow lift in order to get the muzzle to clear leather, particularly with a relatively long barrelled handgun like the 1911 Government Model. However, the design has proved to be comfortable while seated and, for me, keeps the rear sight high enough to generally avoid inadvertent bumps to my elbow during normal activity. Your Bogart series Avenger does take the style to a another level, both functionally and aesthetically.
Baker (did you know that he apprenticed to Andy Anderson in AR?) faced many difficulties with that patent but ultimately sold his operation for a lot in 1980; so it all worked out for him. Problem One is that the typical patent attorney we're going to encounter is not really very good at understanding the essence of what is to be patented. Prob Two is neither he/she, nor the inventor, have a breadth or depth of understanding the prior art, which the Patent Examiner will go through with a fine toothed comb. Prob Three then, was the belt slide holsters that already had outboard slots (in my prior post you'll see even a single outboard slot was previously patented). Prob Four is that the claims were drawn so narrowly that they were limited to a reversible holster -- because that's what Baker and his attorney thought had been invented.

All the other makers had to do, was make it 'not reversible'. Or -- not use three slots. Or -- not surround the slots with a complete stitchline. You'll see these solutions in all pancakes of the era.

The Avenger competes with the pancake by being narrower
. Ultimately a pancake is an avenger with a second outboard slot, which takes up space that can be limited, on the waistline. The original pancake, because it is symmetrical panels, also closes when the pistol is drawn, by virtue of the belt pressure. This can be good for retention, bad for holstering especially with the shakes after an encounter.

The modern pancake, made with a larger panel on the outside then the inside, correct this to a large extent. But the panel encircling of the mouth of an avenger holds it open; so some of the current makers whack a slab of leather near the mouth and believe they've accomplished something when in fact they've only stiffened the centre of the outer panel.

Note that the Professional had no reinforced mouth, and the tab on the back is mounted so that it can only be used crossdraw or true appendix (2:00 which Bruce called 'forward of hip carry' even though that's not our hip up there).
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 05-31-2018, 09:43 AM
JayCeeNC's Avatar
JayCeeNC JayCeeNC is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 18,905
Liked 3,510 Times in 1,121 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Note that the Professional had no reinforced mouth...
On two custom made pancake holsters I had crafted for a Glock 19, made by R. Grizzle and TT Gunleather, I specified the reinforcement band be left off the top to reduce the thickness of the rig and thereby make it "print" less. I find no disadvantage to eliminating this band.
My favorite pancake, The High Ride (THR) by Greg Bulman, carried the gun with no cant, and had no reinforcement at the top. Unfortunately, Bulman is no longer in business.


Correction: Josh Bulman was the holster makers name, not Greg.
__________________
John

Last edited by JayCeeNC; 06-01-2018 at 10:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 06-02-2018, 10:20 PM
les.b's Avatar
les.b les.b is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 5,372
Likes: 104,949
Liked 22,295 Times in 4,529 Posts
Default

Red, I don't see it often, but saw a copy of the magazine "Guns of the Old West" on the newstand today, and picked it up to look at the pictures, mostly (sort of like Playboy). Anyway, this is the summer 2018 issue, and I noticed that there is an article by Dennis Adler called "The Legend Continues" about your old friend John Bianchi. More or less leading up to what ties in with this particular magazine, his current venture, "Frointier Gunleather". I haven't read it all yet, but thought you might be interested. Dont know if you guys get this magazine down under. If you need a copy, let me know, and I'll send it to you.

Best Regards, Les
__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-02-2018, 10:35 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by les.b View Post
Red, I don't see it often, but saw a copy of the magazine "Guns of the Old West" on the newstand today, and picked it up to look at the pictures, mostly (sort of like Playboy). Anyway, this is the summer 2018 issue, and I noticed that there is an article by Dennis Adler called "The Legend Continues" about your old friend John Bianchi. More or less leading up to what ties in with this particular magazine, his current venture, "Frointier Gunleather". I haven't read it all yet, but thought you might be interested. Dont know if you guys get this magazine down under. If you need a copy, let me know, and I'll send it to you.

Best Regards, Les
Thank you so much Les, would love to have a copy of the article by email [email protected] . Adler of course is the author of puff pieces on both John and on Safariland within the last few years. I mentioned to my team mates working on The Book, that it's OK that we can't speak to the oldie makers to get 'the truth' because even in their lifetimes, we makers spin so many tales we begin to believe them ourselves! So how is an interviewer to know better (but geez, I reckon the author of the puff piece on Bill Rogers should've questioned his claim that he invented the paddle holster).

Thanks, think I have some of your pics that I want to run past you for use in The Book :-). I do my best to keep track of image owners and so, any that I can't be sure of, John and I will have to leave out of course.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 06-02-2018 at 10:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 06-03-2018, 09:49 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Article received, thanks so much Les :-). And for the permission to use your excellent pics.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #24  
Old 06-14-2018, 09:08 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 462
Liked 816 Times in 373 Posts
Default

I wonder why avenger style holsters aren't more popular these days? As pointed out above, they take up significantly less real estate on the belt while serving essentially the same purpose.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 06-14-2018, 10:43 PM
Shotguncoach Shotguncoach is offline
SWCA Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Arizona
Posts: 449
Likes: 329
Liked 2,070 Times in 341 Posts
Default

Here's the Alessi version with my full size Kimber:



...and one from Bulman Gunleather with my CDP:





My son carries his Kimber in the Wilson Combat version, my daughter carries her Kimber (can you see a trend) in one made by IHL for Dillon Precision.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 06-15-2018, 06:34 AM
lawandorder's Avatar
lawandorder lawandorder is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 15,021
Liked 10,811 Times in 2,004 Posts
Default

Red tell us a bit more about Baker working with Anderson in Arkansas.
__________________
LEX ET ORDO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #27  
Old 06-15-2018, 06:04 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawandorder View Post
Red tell us a bit more about Baker working with Anderson in Arkansas.
We know surprisingly little about Roy Lee Baker and it took quite a bit of hunting to find out even that -- including that middle name.

B. 1922 and d. 1990, those years are each within 1 of the birth and death of Andy Anderson. (whose name was Warren Ferrell Anderson). We don't know anything more about Roy until he appears with Anderson who has started up his saddlery in Ft. Smith after leaving the Army at WWII's end. Andy married at the outset of the war, Roy at its end.

I worked out the connection between the two men, after a clue from turnerriver to look more closely at Roy's homage to an unnamed master on the back cover of Roy's 1976 or '77 catalogue. To double check I asked my friend, author Bob Arganbright (geez, we've known each other a long time) and he said, "Oh, yeah, doesn't everybody know that? They were lifelong friends and even shared the cost of buying hardware in bulk, and Andy gave Roy permission to build his unique mag pouch". No, everybody didn't know!

In 1960, Roy appears as a heat treater in IL, then files his patent for the pancake from there in '71 and issued in '73. Nothing more until he sells his company in 1980 -- new owners announce he is no longer associated with the company -- and then his death in '90.

Another friend of mine, Jim Buffaloe, worked for Roy and said Roy spent all the money he made on women and booze (for which the punchline is "and the rest of it I just wasted"). Roy takes up just ten lines in my 1800 line reference list.

After all that, one notices when slotting Roy and Andy into holstory, that Roy fits best into the category otherwise dominated by Chic Gaylord and Paris Theodore: flat construction without welts -- the Eastern School. Andy slots into the Western School with a heavy emphasis on Threepersons styling that included significant welts. Andy was a handgun hunter going way back but there are no hints, so far, as to what inspired Roy.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 06-15-2018 at 06:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 06-16-2018, 07:14 AM
lawandorder's Avatar
lawandorder lawandorder is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 15,021
Liked 10,811 Times in 2,004 Posts
Default

Thanks Red. Did Andy produce a version of the Pancake in his Gunfighter line?
__________________
LEX ET ORDO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 06-16-2018, 05:06 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawandorder View Post
Thanks Red. Did Andy produce a version of the Pancake in his Gunfighter line?
To quote Shania Twain, "you must be joking, right?" Nope :-).
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #30  
Old 06-18-2018, 09:48 PM
muzzleblast muzzleblast is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OBWAT, TN
Posts: 440
Likes: 758
Liked 725 Times in 258 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
Baker... faced many difficulties with that patent...Problem One is that the typical patent attorney... is not really very good at understanding the essence of what is to be patented. Prob Two is neither he/she, nor the inventor, have a breadth or depth of understanding the prior art... Prob Three then, was the belt slide holsters that already had outboard slots... Prob Four is that the claims were... limited to a reversible holster...

All the other makers had to do, was make it 'not reversible'. Or -- not use three slots. Or -- not surround the slots with a complete stitchline. You'll see these solutions in all pancakes of the era...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
...It was derived from this Clark crossdraw introduced in the Thirties...

Attachment 342652

Attachment 342653
Red, thanks for sharing your insight.

I grew up not far south of the state line between central Louisiana and Arkansas. I have been to Magnolia, AR several times, but, not to the location of Roy Baker’s shop. Although I was too young to personally purchase a handgun in the early to mid 1970s, it was indisputable that Roy’s Pancake holster was overwhelmingly popular.

It seems to me that the actual "innovation and utility", of Baker's design was a two panel holster with the location of a belt slot "forward" of the pocket. Having researched patents and vintage copies of Gun Digest, American Rifleman, G&A, Shooting Times, etc.; I haven't been able to find similar "prior art." I would be interested to know of any examples.

Last edited by muzzleblast; 06-18-2018 at 09:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #31  
Old 06-19-2018, 01:18 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
Red, thanks for sharing your insight.

I grew up not far south of the state line between central Louisiana and Arkansas. I have been to Magnolia, AR several times, but, not to the location of Roy Baker’s shop. Although I was too young to personally purchase a handgun in the early to mid 1970s, it was indisputable that Roy’s Pancake holster was overwhelmingly popular.

It seems to me that the actual "innovation and utility", of Baker's design was a two panel holster with the location of a belt slot "forward" of the pocket. Having researched patents and vintage copies of Gun Digest, American Rifleman, G&A, Shooting Times, etc.; I haven't been able to find similar "prior art." I would be interested to know of any examples.
The industry had the belt slide with the fore and aft slots. Thinking of my avenger example, what Baker popularised was having more than one belt attachment point, spaced to provide stability that allowed a super high ride.

Nelson fans will claim his No 1Pro was first. But we only have an old claim that his drsign hit the maket in '67. And Clark had done the crossdraw with outboard slot since at least 1935.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 06-19-2018 at 01:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 06-19-2018, 07:04 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 8,002
Likes: 35,764
Liked 29,650 Times in 6,014 Posts
Default

I suppose this horsehide Kramer Vertical could be
called an Avenger style?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_0841.jpg (106.4 KB, 25 views)
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #33  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:52 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet Avenge(r) is Sweet  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
I suppose this horsehide Kramer Vertical could be
called an Avenger style?
Right again :-). Bianchi made the Pistol Pocket, which is a form of avenger for iwb, for revolvers but not the Avenger itself.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sweet 40C MSG Glenn Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 0 01-20-2015 07:12 PM
All I can say is, SWEET!!! bronconagurski Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 22 07-14-2014 08:29 PM
my sweet 66-3 oneill45 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 19 08-05-2013 11:00 PM
Sweet 14-3 from mjf!!!!! Mike McLellan Feedback 0 06-26-2012 01:05 PM
My sweet K22 Fackler Rebel S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 7 09-25-2011 07:54 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:39 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)