I only carry my guns in lined holsters to save the blue. For N&K
frames you are talking $100 for a decent holster at minimum.
I have Bianchi & El Paso mostly and all my guns are 6 to 83/8
barrels with Target hammers. The bottom line is the holsters they
sell for these guns will fit slick as a whistle, unless you have a
Target hammer. If you do the strap will come up short of snap.
It is a PIA to get them stretched without dis coloring with water
or leather solutions.

Also why do makers insist on small belt loops for holsters for
guns that weigh near 3 lbs loaded?

I'm tempted to buy a popular gun that I don't like just fot the
joy of having a endless selection of holsters to pick from.

There are quite a few very good holster maker's who will make exactly what you want and how you want it. And their holster's are mostly less expensive than either Bianchi or El Paso. Not only cheaper, but better quality.

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SWCA 3297 SWHF 583

In reply, how about a holster designer-maker's 'rant':

1. U$100 for a 'good' holster is not a lot; the search for a 'good' holsters is not meant to be a bargain hunt. As with the pistol and the ammo, one pays as much as it takes to get the right one.

2. No excuse for makers on target hammers vs. standard ones. At Bianchi before 1990, the practice was to fit to the target hammer on those that generally came with them (N frames, Python) and the standard one on those that didn't. That said, I have a Jackass (now Galco) here that has a thumbsnap that is a very tight fit on an SW M&P M10. Very tight, one has to 'believe' to get it to snap up.

3. Belt loops: anyone who tells you to get a 'good' belt means a wide, stiff one; and if you need one, then the holster is badly designed; generally, this means top heavy. There are plenty of other errors designers make! Such as position L to R on the backside, it's physical width, etc. So: a 'good' holster can be made with belt loops down to 1"; it's only the 'bad' ones that need a too-stiff belt.

4. Why do they keep doing this? Because 95% of them are either self-taught (how hard could it be, just copy somebody else's design including its flaws) or were taught by the founder (who was also self-taught). Only the remaining 5% ever worked for more than one maker of any size, to learn the science of holster design.

5. Get used to it. Because all makers will blame the consumer and tell them to get a 'good' gunbelt when that is a nullity.

6. Choose your pistol well in the first place. There is a very good reason that the Bond character began with a Beretta .25 and switched to a .32 Walther, both with aluminium frames: small, light, carry them anywhere. Want to carry a 3# pistol? Don't. Want to carry a full-sized 1911 but you weigh 98# yourself? Don't.

This is all very old knowledge, for a hundred years. Your body, then where you will wear it, then biggest power you can conceal there, then (the hard part) find a holster that carries there.

Old wives' tale: you need a so-called 'custom' maker who will make you just what you want. You (and I'm using the general you here, I am not taking the OP to task here) don't know what you want because you're not a holster designer/maker. THEY don't know what you need. This 95% is copying Nelson or Bianchi (which then is me) or Hume or whomever, and their sites will tell you their designs must be good because of who they copied. But we've learned a lot about the science of design in the last half a century. A holster designed by a teenager in 1968 (think Nelson) and copied ever since (think Sparks) is not the sophisticated item you should (but can't) get from a 21st century maker :-(

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I have carried large revolvers in the field since I was a kid. I do
know what I want and know what is comfortable. There is no
need for concealment or fast draw. I can find no fault with the
design of the holster itself. Other than snap issue and the small
belt loops. It' doesn't take a lot of science to figure out that a
wider belt distributes the weight better.

A field holster for a large revover just has to ride high enough so
it's not flopping around with each step you take. Protect the gun
and hold it securely. That's pretty straight forward requirements,
and the holsters I have would be perfect for that intended purpose if they allowed for target hammers and wide belts.

Some makers/designers jest over think it........It's not re-inventing the wheel.


Too short retention straps and small belt loop on holsters are a design flaw sure nuff.




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

My Gosh...........
What a broad view.
That takes in a hellava lot of territory right there.






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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I carry a K22 a lot when hunting or just messing around. I have
a old Hunter Western style belt with the drop loop. I cut the
bottom stiching off the belt loop on a thumb break holster and
attached a strap to it. Like a common Hunter 1100 series holster.
I put the holster over the top of the belt and bring strap through
the drop loop. This gives me a high ride carry with the weight
spread out by the wide skirt of the drop loop. I use same rig to
carry K38 & M19. The Hunter belt is just one ply leather and is
soft from age and use. The loop also traps the holster from
moving around.

Saw on eBay what appeared to be a cheap adequate small holster.
And Left Handed!
Dancing in the street is authorized!
But he didn’t show one for my Beretta 21a.
I emailed him.
He replied he could make me one but didn’t have a gun - model of the 21a.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I custom order the majority of my holsters. Problem solved.

Small belt loops are often traced back to men’s styles in the past. Look at old movies and the skinny belts men used to wear. Why did they wear skinny belts? Tiny belt loops in their trousers! That explains a lot of vintage holsters, some NOS, with tiny clips and loops. I’ve seen vintage photos and films of actual FBI agents sans coats at qualification with, you guessed it, skinny belts.

That said, I habitually wear 1.75 inch belts and usually have to ask the size loops are on a holster if not specified.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

My bad, when the OP spoke of too-narrow loops I expected he was speaking of concealment; which is the only time narrow loops are offered on holsters. Simple answer then, is to buy only holsters with wide loops; by definition they are designed for either field use by sportsmen, or police use by, well, policemen.

A surprising amount of science is in the oldest of modern holsters: the Brill of 1912 onwards. There is no science in, say, the Bianchi No. 6 of 1967 onwards.

So, if the OP is complaining that holster makers aren't making the loops wide enough -- well, they are, for field use. If the loop is narrow then it was not ever intended for the cannons :-).

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

Surprisingly incorrect: although the gunmen of the past did wear narrow belts, their holster loops were typically still wide: it was done to allow the 'sling draw' and Jelly Bryce was its biggest proponent. Bill Myres mentioned the technique in a 1950s newspaper article that included his pride in supplying Bryce. The famous image of Jelly's fellow Kansas City PD/F.B.I. partner Jerry Campbell shows this off well, as does the Life magazine pictorial on Bryce, as do many images of Bryce elsewhere.

1-3/4" wide belts were a byproduct of the 1970s and the hippie era that fostered them. There is never a worthwhile reason to wear a wide trousers belt to hold up a holster, except poor holster design for the pistol involved (usually a c-g problem). It's not rocket science, but it is science :-). Personally my builds are for 1-1/2" wide belts, a very mainstream width today. For concealment. For sporting they are 2-1/2" that also suits the more common 2-1/4".

The Texas Rangers of early 20th century were required to switch to narrow (as narrow as 1" width) for the Colt SAA and 1911 pistols. And the best known of them, Captain J.R. Hughes who had the Brill created for that purpose, lived into his 90s :-). Must've worked in the real world.

Times change yet I was surprised at a Cooper book of circa '65 saying a 'wide' belt was 1-1/4 inch!

P.S. Love the image you use as an avatar :-). I sculpted those while Bianchi's chief of design, for Pachmayr to make for us.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I know, I should write a book. Wait, I did: Holstory, Gunleather of the 20th Century, will appear next month.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I believe you are missing the point. I don't know what part of the
country you were raised in but where I come from men have
always wore wide belts. They call them work belts. Most guys are
not wearing their gun on their pants belt. They use a gun belt
for field guns. You are right, it isn't space science. If you are
selling a holster to fit a 6" N frame and it's not designed to
carry a cannon, what is the purpose of this holster?

I will take it a step futher. Take a #111 Cyclone CD for N frame.
Gun with Target hammer is already out. A 629 will fit and snap.
Put it on a Bianchi cartridge belt. Gun don't fit no more.

I think they should put some design people on making holsters
for big guns that are practical for the sportsman. It's basic stuff.
We are not concerned with concealment, fast draw or any of the
finer points that may be required for anti personnel use or the
holsters guys use on ranges. Like I said there is nothing wrong
with the holster proper. They are molded to fit the gun. A little
common sense should be applied to how a holster for a big gun
is going to be carried. Leave the science for the CCW holsters
for the gut buster guns.

All that I know about bendin' leather and it's history wouldn't make much of a book....


But, if wearin' a rig 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week was of any interest,


I guess I could jot down a line er two about what works purty good.




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols although the gunmen of the past did wear narrow belts, their holster loops were typically still wide:

Red,


Please tell us more about this 'sling draw'.


A short video would suffice as well.

What kind of rig do you carry daily???



Su Amigo,
Dave




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I don't disagree with anything you said there. Perhaps all that, is what you meant to say with your original post? The Cyclone, of course, is from my youth and we've learned a lot about good holster design since then; it absolutely was not a science then. On the other hand, first I've heard of the Cyclone fitting without the belt, and then not fitting with it; and Cyclone comes up often on forums.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

To be honest it doesn't seem like your requirements are too hard to accommodate. Get yourself a cheap nylon holster with adjustable strap. With nylon you don't have to worry about the finish, the strap would be adjustable so fit won t be an issue, you don't need a quick draw and it doesn't sound like concealment is an issue, just a woods holster. Unless you are a holster snob this seems like a job for a cheap nylon holster that fits your gun model.

What I failed to address was that pants in those days were fuller cut and had pockets large enough to conceal full-sized revolvers. I saw a hip pocket holster once with a tab that secured it by the rear pocket button; the holster was for a 4 inch Colt Police Positive Special. Colt's John Henry FitzGerald carried two cut down, or Fitz'ed, New Service revolvers in his front pockets. Of course he habitually wore Jodhpurs, so there was plenty of room for the large frame "snubbies."

I've seen several lots of clips to sew onto OWB holsters so the clips could be slipped over the belt. The clips were for 1 inch belts. I've also seen numerous comcealment holsters made by Chic Gaylord for one inch belts.

I too have 1.5 inch belts and have holsters to fit them.

As for the Lightning grips on my Model 13-3, they are perfect for concealment under a coat in a Don Hume JIT. On the other hand they throw the balance on a Model 12-2 way off. I'm thinking about laser scanning mine and seeing if I could 3-D print a set strong and light enough to be useful without wrecking the balance of lighter guns. You done good.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

My primary carry holsters for my 4 inch S&W Model 65-1 are a tan basketweave Bianchi #5BHL for open carry and a tan Bianchi #7/7L for concealed carry. I love them!

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

To be honest you probably never tried to run around the woods
with a big gun in a nylon holster. They are the king of flop &
twist. The requirements are not hard to accommodate, and
wouldn't be a major retool. I think the problem is people on the
design, decision end have cut down on practical field holsters and
are into the more profitable CCW market.

You're right, I haven't tried to run around with one but I do have a decent nylon holster for my K frame that gets worn and used at the range. It's got a stiff spine and hard plastic back, floppy is not a word I would use to describe it, generic, bulky, slow, those are words I would use. I can't recall the brand but I think I picked it up at walmart. Fits my K frame great.

I have a sack full of nylon holsters and some of them aren't cheap, as far as cost. You described them well, just add flop.
I have been using them to ship guns in. For walking around on
a range they would be fine. ILL stick with leather

Fair enough, just a thought.

I agree with the OP....


I have had to replace too short of hammer straps as well.


The belt loop on most factory holsters are 1 1/2" or 2 1/2"
just to suit the un-washed masses. Most are designed to sell and
not for the serious hand gunner and woodsman.


I like my holster to carry the handgun high enough not to flop around,
but not so high as to be banging me in the ribs.


With this said, a good separate gun belt w/fitted holster suits me just fine and has for neigh on fifty years.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

That's exactly the same as what I have been trying to say. The
Holster itself is fine. Whether holster is molded or just a good
fit is not the problem. To much over thinking and everything is
now geared for "combat". I would say that a very large number
of holsters purchased for large revolvers are never carried except
on a range, if that. I know guys with nice collections of pistols
that have a nice holster for each one. They are to display the
guns in. The farthest they get into the wilds is a parking lot at
a Dunkin Doughnuts.

Guys that actually carry a large revolver are probably a small
market for companies to fool with. I have wrote letters to the
holster companies and they didn't bother to respond.

These companies cannot be excused for not replying. That was one of my roles for Bianchi and the company had a policy that every query got a responsive, timely reply. Of course that was long before email that could flood the system with anonymous queries. It does match my modern experience tho: my emails to Hunter and El Paso Saddlery were ignored and more than once.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

Excellent. Your 3d print idea is a really good one. Be aware that the left side shroud is very vulnerable because it is quite narrow where it allows for the cylinder latch release. I understand that 3d print can be done in sintered metal. But better if you can print in plastic around an internal reinforcement. You could have a new business for yourself there (printing gun parts is expressly illegal here).

Reviewed Chic's bok again recently and he advocated making the belt loop quite tight on the pants belt. It was prior to his time that the holster having slop on the belt was considered a positive.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

This book, Holstory, doesn't give advice about choosing or wearing holsters. It's about people and their designs, 'holstory' being a contraction of the phrase 'holster history'. Fear not, scanning throgh a copy won't disturb your hard-earned carry experience. Lots of big, color images of seminal holsters, many of them quite rare; and notable lawmen's guns with some appearing for the first time ever in print.

It was Cunningham in Triggernometry who said, "history is biography' and Holstory, as a book, follows that model.

Will there be another book about choosing and using holsters? Hope so, in which case the gunman stuff will come from gunmen. That's not my thing.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

As a holster maker myself, I would so much love to spend a weekend, or a week, just discussing this stuff with you.