Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Gun Leather & Carry Gear
o

Notices

Gun Leather & Carry Gear All Holster and Gun Leather Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-16-2018, 08:33 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default the 'sling draw' explained

The 'sling draw' came up in another thread that I tried hard not to hijack; with mixed results I'm afraid.

But in that thread I mentioned the sling draw, which is my label for a draw that was practiced by the FBI et al beginning in the '30s.

The only worthwhile images that I have of it are of Jelly Bryce in 'that' 1945 Life magazine article, and we'll have to have faith to 'see' it there because the images are composites of his draw and shoot action (none of these are my images, but some are used in The Book with permission):

life 12 nov 1945 (5).jpg Jelly's 1945 appearance
jelly bryce holster (2).jpg Jelly's holster

I can, however, quote two writers of note during the era, Elmer Keith and Col. Askins. Bear in mind that I'm not advocating a return to the drawing style; it came up in the context of wondering why FBI agents had narrow belts but wide belt loop tunnels, such as this one of 1930's agent Jerry Campbell:

ballantyne myres (2).jpg

I've no images of the backside of Campbell's holster but expect it to have the same full-width belt tunnel as this one from that 'early' era; as I've not seen any Myres' No 614s that were otherwise.

myres early (34).jpg


Askins, 1950 I recall: "The six-gun, when it is put into action, is 'throwed' from the Tom Threepersons holster; it isn't drawn in the conventional sense at all. It is bounced forward into line, and to make this possible the holster hangs on the cartridge belt at a decided angle. The muzzle does not hang parallel with the leg but is angled to the rear quite sharply. This places the gun handle well forward and when the draw is unfolding the artillery is 'throwed' with an underhand motion much like heaving a baseball. It's lightning fast."


Elmer Keith, 1961: "Never try to do your best work by holding the gun close against the body. You can point it much more accurately if you throw or poke it toward the target".

Likely Ed McGivern had words about this, too; as his trick shooting was from the holster (that included the Myres, and Hardy, and Berns-Martin). I haven't looked through my original 1938 edition again, it's as thick as a bible.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 08-16-2018 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 08-16-2018, 09:13 PM
Russell Cottle's Avatar
Russell Cottle Russell Cottle is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pawnee, Oklahoma
Posts: 286
Likes: 16,836
Liked 621 Times in 139 Posts
Default

They were still teaching that 'draw' when I went thru CLEET basic in 1973. Most holsters had a decided forward tilt to them.
__________________
Sheriff Russell Cottle. ret
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 08-16-2018, 09:21 PM
SG-688 SG-688 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 407
Liked 2,219 Times in 618 Posts
Default

From that 1950's FBI training film on youtube - Fundamentals of DA Revolver Shooting.

"the holster tips forward, allowing the gun to slide out easily"

I didn't save a picture of the rest of the draw, but I'd bet he's slinging.

The explicit point in the video is not merely that the holster is tilted forward - muzzle rear rake - but that the wide belt loop of the holster allows movement on the narrow belt. Look closely at the picture of the holster without the revolver. The holster is raised above the belt.

And then, from the 1967 Safariland catalog - the number 1 FBI Speed Tilt holster. "A unique belt loop construction allows the holster to pivot forward when the gun is drawn."

Last edited by SG-688; 08-16-2018 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 08-16-2018, 10:20 PM
Pig Hunter Pig Hunter is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 902
Likes: 2,754
Liked 1,036 Times in 443 Posts
Default

I don't remember were I saw the video, but it was a demonstration of the FBI style . Assume the crouch position while grabbing the grip and rotating it away from the body and out of the holster, with a twisting pull. Then "slinging" the muzzle to waist level, locking the elbow to the hip, and firing. Oh ya, remember to bring your off hand fore arm in front of your chest to hopefully deflect any return fire!? Jelly also recommended aiming for the belt buckle. The guys that came up with that method were the real deal, but I'm not sure it would translate well to the lawyers and accountants they had to teach. JMHO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 08-16-2018, 10:54 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig Hunter View Post
I don't remember were I saw the video, but it was a demonstration of the FBI style . Assume the crouch position while grabbing the grip and rotating it away from the body and out of the holster, with a twisting pull. Then "slinging" the muzzle to waist level, locking the elbow to the hip, and firing. Oh ya, remember to bring your off hand fore arm in front of your chest to hopefully deflect any return fire!? Jelly also recommended aiming for the belt buckle. The guys that came up with that method were the real deal, but I'm not sure it would translate well to the lawyers and accountants they had to teach. JMHO
Right on topic for me: in '66 the FBI sent an agent to my high school just to the west of London, to tell us all about it. After that I really, really wanted to be an agent (or President!) except the lawyer or accountant thing turned me off. I was all of 16 and it turns out would've loved being a lawyer.

My lethal force training from Mas Ayoob, which I was just thinking about when a pair of local officers wandered into 'my' coffee shop, was to shoot for the pelvis. Nobody can fight on when the pelvis is shattered, it seems; and body armour over the torso of course is no defense.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:25 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 8,002
Likes: 35,764
Liked 29,650 Times in 6,014 Posts
Default

Here are 3 popular holsters that were/are referred to as "FBI holsters"

On the left is Myres 614 Tom Threepersons style. Authorized by the FBI
but not issued. Probably what Jelly Bryce and Jerry Campbell are shown
wearing. Very popular with agents. Floral carved.

In the middle is a Heiser "pre" 457. Has the older triple H logo, but no
model number. But identical to other 457s that I have. Heisers were
issued. Later the 459s with "dog ears" were issued. Plain finish.

At right is Lawrence's 34 FBI "Extra Quick Draw". They entered the
party later than the other two. Don't know if they were authorized or
issued, but they claimed the FBI name. Basket Weave.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_1123.jpg (153.6 KB, 84 views)
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:33 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 8,002
Likes: 35,764
Liked 29,650 Times in 6,014 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG-688 View Post
From that 1950's FBI training film on youtube - Fundamentals of DA Revolver Shooting.

"the holster tips forward, allowing the gun to slide out easily"

I didn't save a picture of the rest of the draw, but I'd bet he's slinging.

The explicit point in the video is not merely that the holster is tilted forward - muzzle rear rake - but that the wide belt loop of the holster allows movement on the narrow belt. Look closely at the picture of the holster without the revolver. The holster is raised above the belt.

And then, from the 1967 Safariland catalog - the number 1 FBI Speed Tilt holster. "A unique belt loop construction allows the holster to pivot forward when the gun is drawn."
Here is a photo of what you refer to as Safariland's number 1
FBI holster. Mine has PATENT PENDING, but it looks to be the
same one. The 4 inch model 29 trigger guard doesn't quite
make it to the welt. Holster was probably made for 3.5" gun.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_0839.jpg (111.0 KB, 92 views)
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:50 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 8,002
Likes: 35,764
Liked 29,650 Times in 6,014 Posts
Default

Here, on the left, is the Heiser #459, that I mentioned previously,
with model 19. It had a strap, that is not necessary, that I removed.

On the right is a Crump FBI holster with a "trigger protector".
I have read that Jelly Bryce designed a holster with a trigger protector.
This one is marked Q37. Jelly was teaching at Quantico in 1937.
Is this the hoster Jelly designed so agents would keep their finger
off the trigger? Maybe.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_0802.jpg (88.6 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg SAM_0857.jpg (86.6 KB, 84 views)
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 08-17-2018, 08:13 AM
SG-688 SG-688 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 407
Liked 2,219 Times in 618 Posts
Default

I buzzed through the 1950's video. In the staged, slow-speed demonstrations, the shooter mostly kept his finger off the trigger at the holster. Full speed - finger on the trigger every time.

My Safariland model 1 was a gun show bargain in about 1970. I don't know if the wide belt loop is the 1967 version or the perhaps second version in the 1968 catalog that does not mention the feature.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Safariland 1 FBI F R 1970.jpg (91.3 KB, 51 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 08-17-2018, 09:57 AM
Russell Cottle's Avatar
Russell Cottle Russell Cottle is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pawnee, Oklahoma
Posts: 286
Likes: 16,836
Liked 621 Times in 139 Posts
Default

I was taught 'finger on the trigger' as the draw begins, applying pressure to the trigger as the gun is pulled and 'slung forward' so that the hammer falls as the gun comes level. These new 'trigger guard covered' holsters give me fits.
__________________
Sheriff Russell Cottle. ret
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 08-17-2018, 10:06 AM
max503's Avatar
max503 max503 is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 2,576
Likes: 1,375
Liked 3,292 Times in 1,411 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Cottle View Post
I was taught 'finger on the trigger' as the draw begins, applying pressure to the trigger as the gun is pulled and 'slung forward' so that the hammer falls as the gun comes level. These new 'trigger guard covered' holsters give me fits.
That must explain the trigger cut-out on my venerable Model 15 holster.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg model 15.jpg (44.8 KB, 55 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 08-17-2018, 03:36 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,690
Likes: 13,045
Liked 28,605 Times in 5,151 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=rednichols;140135766]

The 'sling draw' came up in another thread that I tried hard not to hijack;

But in that thread I mentioned the sling draw, which is my label for a draw that was practiced by the FBI et al beginning in the '30s.

/QUOTE]








I'm very familiar with that draw and have used it....For Real.

But, I had never heard that style of draw referred to as a 'sling'...

So, that's just what you are calling it, correct ???




.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 08-17-2018, 03:51 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

[quote=keith44spl;140136523]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post

The 'sling draw' came up in another thread that I tried hard not to hijack;

But in that thread I mentioned the sling draw, which is my label for a draw that was practiced by the FBI et al beginning in the '30s.

/QUOTE]


I'm very familiar with that draw and have used it....For Real.

But, I had never heard that style of draw referred to as a 'sling'...

So, that's just what you are calling it, correct ???

.
As mentioned, that's my own phrase for it. Back then they just called it 'drawing' :-).

One of my references also refers to the trigger pull beginning during the draw! Dunno where anyone got the idea that was a good idea but it certainly explains, better than any other way, why exposing the trigger was an essential selling feature for holsters, gosh, at least until the 1970s.

For example, the only reason the trigger is covered on the Bianchi Cyclone was protection against brush snagging the trigger while hunting.

And covering the trigger now causes its own problems, especially for Glock users: the string of a/d events with Safariland Kydex holsters, a perfect storm of exposed trigger that is striker fired and reinforced with Kydex to guarantee the 'bang'. I have a Safariland in my collection; oh, my, what were they thinking.
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 08-17-2018, 06:47 PM
SG-688 SG-688 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 407
Liked 2,219 Times in 618 Posts
Default

Staging - one term for applying pressure to the trigger while drawing/lining up - is still a contentious issue - so it would seem from prior threads.

Reports differ. The FBI may or may not have recommended it up to the 10 mm era, but for sure S&W came out with a warning against it then.

A P.S. I remember the reaction of one of the bravest cops and best shots (and medals to prove both) I knew upon seeing a Hume Agent 9 - a holster with a covered trigger guard: "How do you get your finger on the trigger?"

Last edited by SG-688; 08-17-2018 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 08-17-2018, 09:51 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG-688 View Post
From that 1950's FBI training film on youtube - Fundamentals of DA Revolver Shooting.

"the holster tips forward, allowing the gun to slide out easily"

I didn't save a picture of the rest of the draw, but I'd bet he's slinging.

The explicit point in the video is not merely that the holster is tilted forward - muzzle rear rake - but that the wide belt loop of the holster allows movement on the narrow belt. Look closely at the picture of the holster without the revolver. The holster is raised above the belt.

And then, from the 1967 Safariland catalog - the number 1 FBI Speed Tilt holster. "A unique belt loop construction allows the holster to pivot forward when the gun is drawn."

Excellent as always :-). First time it has actually registered, that the Safariland holster is in the Myres' shape at the welt, vs. the Heiser shape other Safariland's (and Bianchi) used (although Lucky B's Heiser 457 used the intersecting angle, most 457s have the 'waisted' look):

myres witty (9).jpg

safariland mariano (3).jpg
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:35 AM
LoboGunLeather's Avatar
LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
US Veteran
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,518
Likes: 19,273
Liked 32,340 Times in 5,474 Posts
Default

I entered civilian law enforcement in 1973, at which time duty handguns were almost entirely double-action revolvers. Training included "staging" of the trigger in DA mode, and the trigger finger was always on the trigger when the revolver was drawn. I spent many hours practicing for precise control of the trigger until I was able to easily stop the trigger pull just as the cylinder locked into position and the hammer was just shy of the release point, then either squeezing off the shot or releasing pressure and lowering the hammer without firing the revolver.

It can be done. This requires many, many hours of training that is repeated constantly, which few cops are willing to do. This also requires many more hours of range time than most departments are willing to pay for, so it was not part of most official training programs. Not to mention the expenditure of ammunition required to master the technique.

I've seen several of the FBI training films produced during the 1950's and 1960's that demonstrate what Red has described as the "sling draw"; the "combat crouch" position, the technique of rotating the holster on the belt, the almost completely forward motion of the draw, locking the elbow into the hip, covering the chest with the off-side arm (supposedly to protect against return fire), and the largely unaimed "point shooting" that was taught during that time period. I am sure that there were some people who became very proficient with those methods, but I know that I was not one of them.

In his autobiography "Will" Mr. G. Gordon Liddy wrote at length about his firearms training while he was a Special Agent of the FBI, including hours spent on the range on his own time, the "Hogan's Alley" course (multiple targets presented suddenly, some hostile and others non-hostile) taking advantage of unlimited ammunition for practice, shooting until the skin on his trigger finger was torn and bloody, then mending his finger with "New Skin" (an adhesive liquid bandage product) and practicing some more. Later in that book Liddy describes a couple of incidents in which he avoided firing even though his revolver trigger was nearly completely pulled, and credited the FBI training and his own constant practice with building that level of control and awareness.

Just like every other method or technique, the key element is practice, practice, practice until every movement becomes nearly automatic through repetition and "muscle memory". Someone thoroughly trained and experienced with the "sling draw" would probably have difficulty transitioning to any other method, and a Weaver stance with two-hand hold would probably be awkward at best.

Right way? Wrong way? Best method? Worst method? These are probably meaningless concepts, and the point of Red Nichols post was describing a specific method and equipment developed for that method.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-19-2018, 01:51 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained the 'sling draw' explained  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,481
Likes: 1,843
Liked 7,687 Times in 2,112 Posts
Default

I did take a stroll through McGivern's thick book. Which reminds me that Ed is undeservedly misunderstood by virtue of being a trick shooter, with one sage saying his teaching would be of no use in the modern day of shooting while moving or while targets were moving; when instead McGivern taught both.

Anyway, despite his lengthy discourse on drawing and hitting, and quickly; and his close proximity to the appearance of the F.B.I. and his chapters on the agency itself and the letter from Mr. Hoover himself; nevertheless he doesn't seem to explicitly describe his ideal drawing methodology.

But -- this fascinated me as being the product of the transition of terminology from 'combat shooters' to 'practical shooters':

'For years I have been deluged with arguments and discussions, between the careful holding, very deliberate target shooters, on one side, and the somewhat faster and generally referred to as "practical shooters" on the other side. Here we find the so-called practical or defense shooters poking fun at the slower, deliberate fire . . . [who] in their turn . . . poke fun at the "Slam! Bang" crowd, as they sometimes like to call those generally referred to as the "practical shooters".'

It seems that Cooper, with his establishment of IPSC ('P' for Practical) in '76, in choosing that word to avoid the use of the 'combat' or 'defense' terms, was not ahead of his time; Ed's book was published 1938!
__________________
Red Nichols The Holstorian

Last edited by rednichols; 08-19-2018 at 01:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why we are all here, explained. TomkinsSP The Lounge 10 04-08-2018 09:17 AM
E-RUSH Sling by URBAN-ERT Tactical Sling Loudeneer79 Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 2 02-07-2014 11:16 PM
Sling and Sling Mount options Scottpants Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 66 09-20-2013 02:42 PM
New M&P 15 need Sling & front sling Swivel kmloar Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 4 12-10-2010 09:15 AM
Put some stuff on: Magpul MBUS, KZ Sling Loop, Vertical Grip and Sling Rottyfan Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 16 11-11-2010 08:44 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:03 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)