Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-03-2018, 04:59 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default Notapancake style

I offer these on my site as 'pancake style' but in truth, they are not pancakes at all. More like a hybrid of the pancake and the original Avenger, by having a folded body with a slot near the guard but now a slot near the hammer, too.

This is its latest iteration, which has a hammer guard not only on the front side but on the backside.

And like my first version, this one has a cylinder recess inside, at the backside.

Gee it carries well, with ideal balance in all four directions. Ruger GP100, the prior one was for the K frame (other makers note: 1/2" added at the fold is the only pattern change; even the belt panel is the same panel).

Notapancake style-20181004_063020-jpg

Notapancake style-20181004_063036-jpg

The design came from a customer wanting my Avenger for a revolver, which I had made but I absolutely hated to build because it just wasn't 'right'. The new design felt right and so I've continued to sophisticate it.
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-03-2018, 06:20 PM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 3,707
Likes: 9,297
Liked 10,579 Times in 2,587 Posts
Default

That is a mighty handsome holster Red.
__________________
In Omnia Paratus
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 10-03-2018, 06:31 PM
MN Lefty MN Lefty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 11
Likes: 9
Liked 10 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Great looking holster. Love the way the hammer is covered, should be no poking in the love handles.🤔
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 10-03-2018, 06:32 PM
ISCS Yoda's Avatar
ISCS Yoda ISCS Yoda is offline
US Veteran
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 4,784
Likes: 1,077
Liked 5,216 Times in 2,144 Posts
Default

Call'em what you like! Very pretty!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:10 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

I admit to being quite enamoured of its looks. More so with its performance. Next step is to adapt the learnings to automatics.

P.s. the true purpose of the hammer guatds is not to protect the clothing or even love handles. It's to prevent the elbow from cocking the hammer, which then gives a lower-than-expected trigger pull.at the draw. This makes a 'bang'.
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).

Last edited by rednichols; 10-03-2018 at 09:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:32 PM
F75gunslinger's Avatar
F75gunslinger F75gunslinger is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South of Rochester , NY
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 65
Liked 1,067 Times in 455 Posts
Default

Great looking holster Red...
__________________
1st smiles,lies.Last,gunfire.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 10-04-2018, 12:21 AM
LoboGunLeather's Avatar
LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
US Veteran
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,706
Likes: 1,616
Liked 10,730 Times in 2,091 Posts
Default

Very impressive design, obviously the result of much thought and insight into the intended result.

Easy to see how this method of belt attachment will maximize stability on the belt and keep the "package" pulled snugly into a consistent position against the body under all conditions. Ride height appears perfect for weight distribution and accessibility (ease of draw). Exactly what is needed for a defensive carry holster.

Again, a very impressive design. Also beautifully executed.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 10-04-2018, 01:40 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,384
Likes: 9,335
Liked 19,643 Times in 3,907 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
I admit to being quite enamoured of its looks. More so with its performance. Next step is to adapt the learnings to automatics.

P.s. the true purpose of the hammer guatds is not to protect the clothing or even love handles. It's to prevent the elbow from cocking the hammer, which then gives a lower-than-expected trigger pull.at the draw. This makes a 'bang'.





What with all that bonein' and such.....


I wouldn't think it would be a loose enough fit to allow the hammer to rotate the cylinder into battery.



Purty looking holster anyways.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Last edited by keith44spl; 10-04-2018 at 01:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 10-04-2018, 03:18 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,786
Likes: 852
Liked 1,491 Times in 581 Posts
Default Gorgeous

Dig two tone holsters...brown/cordovan and black. Let us know when/if you make one for a Glock 43. I will buy!

Be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
I admit to being quite enamoured of its looks. More so with its performance. Next step is to adapt the learnings to automatics.

P.s. the true purpose of the hammer guatds is not to protect the clothing or even love handles. It's to prevent the elbow from cocking the hammer, which then gives a lower-than-expected trigger pull.at the draw. This makes a 'bang'.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 10-04-2018, 03:34 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Dig two tone holsters...brown/cordovan and black. Let us know when/if you make one for a Glock 43. I will buy!

Be safe.
I did kind of stumble into that color combination, over the last few years. Originally my range was faithfully all brown or all black. The switch to black on brown with the ostrich came from being unable to juggle all the colors of brown, if I mail-ordered and got a very different shade.

The Glock: no can do, I won't build for the striker pistols. No external hammer or safety, 'unsafe at any speed' for a holster maker; we can't make the pistol safe with the holster yet buyers think that we have.
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 10-04-2018, 07:52 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
What with all that bonein' and such.....

I wouldn't think it would be a loose enough fit to allow the hammer to rotate the cylinder into battery.

Purty looking holster anyways.
Seems logical, doesn't it? As designers, and as builders, though, we have to think of everything; and keeping the cylinder in position assumes at least that it is fluted; and when it is, that either the design or the process will mould the leather into the outermost flutes.

In that regard, the construction of this particular holster doesn't enable hand detailing into the flutes, and I don't use a press (which would then force the leather to conform to the flutes, like it or not).

And fluteless cylinders have become more, and not less, popular.

Notapancake style-sw-fluteless-jpg
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 10-04-2018, 11:47 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
Very impressive design, obviously the result of much thought and insight into the intended result.

Easy to see how this method of belt attachment will maximize stability on the belt and keep the "package" pulled snugly into a consistent position against the body under all conditions. Ride height appears perfect for weight distribution and accessibility (ease of draw). Exactly what is needed for a defensive carry holster.

Again, a very impressive design. Also beautifully executed.
Thanks for the professional view :-). As a pro, you will appreciate, also, come construction details that one would readily miss even when handling the product itself.

Starting, and stopping, stitching on a lined holster is awkward. So I don't. The complete holster panels, front and back, are stitched all 'round, then sewn together; and the 'welt' is simply stitched through the same holes. One can see it here:

Notapancake style-20181004_063020-copy-jpg

And my particular obsession, is to do it all at once, in a single line; so the green circle shows the intersection where the perimeter stitch has been 'switched' like train tracks into the interior of the holster panel, then back out to the perimeter.

Not really possible on the old needle-and-awl harness machines, but I worked this out when the Bull was new circa 1990 and, tho I couldn't do it for my holster company customers back then because they didn't have such machines, I can do it for my customers. The standard 'S' point needle in the Ferdinands make this 100% successful; that is, doesn't cut the knots inside the holes.

What's life without whimsy?
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 10-05-2018, 12:13 AM
Pig Hunter Pig Hunter is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 398
Likes: 695
Liked 205 Times in 121 Posts
Default

Did you use a rubber grommet around the screw for retention force or some other material?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-05-2018, 02:33 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig Hunter View Post
Did you use a rubber grommet around the screw for retention force or some other material?
I really thought I had mentioned it, but I see I didn't.

About 3/4" diameter and about half-inch thick, it's a square-shouldered grommet used with sheet metal for electrical applications. I buy one at my local hardware shop and adapted my designs around it.

The way this is installed -- the brass nut has been placed inside the oversized center hole while I was aligning the holes front and back -- the spacer doesn't really work as a roller. But if the hole were smaller, the grommet would simply rotate 'round the screw (and teenut barrel) with friction against the leather lining from the faces of the grommet.

As it is, the revolver 'seats' at holstering and unseats when drawn, in a barely perceptible way. So it's what it's actually doing, is applying a forward pressure for the revolver's top strap against the inside of the holster fold :-).

Looks quite like these:

Notapancake style-41g6-ko6hal-jpg
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:11 PM
bronco45's Avatar
bronco45 bronco45 is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Moscow, Idaho USA
Posts: 2,390
Likes: 6,373
Liked 1,138 Times in 491 Posts
Default

Beautiful work, very classy!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:52 PM
muzzleblast muzzleblast is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OBWAT, TN
Posts: 342
Likes: 591
Liked 554 Times in 189 Posts
Default

I just stumbled across this thread and thought I would share some thoughts. I am a hobbyist holster maker, and a student of the innovations of my predecessors, including Red’s prolific work.

Why “notapancake”? First some history, or perhaps, “Holstory”...:-) Roy Baker’s Original Pancake was a two piece construction holster with belt slots fore and aft of the pocket. The front and rear panels were equal sized, hence the term “50/50.” The design is stable and pulls the gun snugly into the body of the wearer, aiding concealment. The downside of a 50/50 pocket is that after the handgun is drawn, the empty holster tends to “pinch” and constrict the mouth of the pocket, thereby hindering the (re)holstering process. Common solutions to this issue have been the addition of reinforcement to the outer panel, and better yet, offset construction (sometimes called “flatback”) in which the outer panel is larger than the rear panel, effectively shifting the pocket outward and reducing the pinching effects of belt tension.

I find it interesting that the pancake and the Avenger style holsters each are nearing the half century mark. Yet, there are few notable examples of professional holster makers attempting to merge the positives of each. Other than Red’s Maltese Falcon (one of my personal favorite designs) and now his “notapancake”; the only other notable examples I can think of are Tucker Gun Leather’s HF1 and Bob Mernickle’s PS6.

In the past I have experimented with some modified pancake and Avenger designs, a couple of which may be of interest to fellow holster enthusiasts. First is the “Hemlock”, which is basically a 50/50 “pancake” pocket design. However, the back panel is “full size” and the front panel is abbreviated. I call it three-quarter sized. The belt slots are located in the rear panel. This concentrates the belt tension on the rear panel, minimizing pinching at the pocket mouth.

Second is the “Stiletto”, which much like Red’s “notapancake” is a one-piece, full-wrap pocket design similar to an Avenger except the rear tunnel loop is replaced with a forward belt slot. This style incorporates the best features of the Avenger and the pancake, i.e. the “Avengercake”, or maybe “Cakevenger”, perhaps.


In any case, the pancake and the Avenger are each solid designs that have withstood the test of time. It would seem reasonable to expect that the “notapancake” will too.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 10-14-2018, 03:43 AM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Very nice muzzleblast. Refreshing to see a new approach or two, and yours are handsome :-). You've used the tried-and-true Nichols adage: "there's gotta be a harder way!". That's what innovation is (think iPhone vs Princess phone).

It was in the late '70s that Gordon Davis said 'there's nothing new in holsters'; yet since then hundreds of holster patents have been granted. 'Nothing new' is just a copyist's way of justifying his (or her) business model. And there are lots of these people populating the holster world. Why bother?

My notapancake is certainly not earth-shaking for automatics. It would be simply an avenger with a twin-slotted panel on the backside; and so an associated increase in thickness over the Baker.

What I think I added to the recipe was incorporating a cylinder recess into one, so that a revolver could lay flat as a pancake; yet the holster stays open like an avenger. I have my first dealer, and sincerely tried to improve on Beat the Devil with the learnings of Casablanca; and gave up, and left it alone :-).

Casablanca confirms the origin of the avenger itself: it was created to compete with the new pancake, which was patented, by removing the second slot that was part of the patent. Harder? Yup. Nobody copies my present, only my past, because they get ever-harder to build.
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:43 PM
muzzleblast muzzleblast is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OBWAT, TN
Posts: 342
Likes: 591
Liked 554 Times in 189 Posts
Default

I agree with the perspective that simply stitching an Avenger body to a twin slotted backing plate would yield a Avenger-Baker mongrel having excessive thickness on the backside. Avoiding such redundancy is one of the many attributes contributing to the uniqueness of your “Maltese Falcon” and “Beat the Devil” designs. Incorporating the cylinder recess into the revolver “notapancake” design simply confirms a “function first” approach.

My approach to the Avengercake, isn’t that sophisticated: There is not a separate backing plate. Simply extend, and reinforce a forward wing (or flange), as illustrated in the attached photos of an IWB, nylon clip version. It is the same basic approach used on the previously mentioned OWB design. I am fairly well researched and haven’t been able to identify any “prior art” using this particular construction technique for merging the Avenger body with the forward wing of the pancake. That’s not to say that the late G. Wm. Davis did not know something that I don’t. Perhaps a “holstorian” would be able to verify. ;-)


I understand what you are saying about “copyists”. Copying, unfortunately, is inherent in the nature of humans. Yet, I think it fair to postulate that “leaders” look to the works of others for “inspiration”, while “followers” are content with “imitation”. It will be interesting to see if other members can share examples of Avenger - Baker hybrids.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-14-2018, 04:33 PM
rednichols's Avatar
rednichols rednichols is offline
Member
Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style Notapancake style  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1,108
Liked 3,734 Times in 1,123 Posts
Default

Muzzleblast, if you're experiencing any frustration with the rear sight of the automatics 'showing', it's because the avenger styles are very pedantic about the height of the main fold. And, as we've discussed, extending the loop into a slotted panel doesn't cure that. So: avenger styles, such as Beat the Devil; and modified as in Casablanca; need that fold to extend up above, not below, the ejection port, to keep the rear sight close.

For revolvers one can do pretty much as one pleases in this matter, because the rear sight is well forward of the grip. Not so the automatics where the rear sight is actually behind the grip.

Excellent holster design, and build, is not as straightforward as it looks. Another example was a little maker who told me he was struggling with the pistol snagging a bit during the draw: it was obvious to me from the image -- he was moulding into the ejection port because 'that's how it's done for retention'. Into the port can cause too much 'retention'. When he stopped moulding into the port, his draw was transformed. I don't mould into the port, or the trigger guard, for that reason; a fully-enclosed automatic that is well-moulded into/onto every other feature will retain very, very well.
__________________
Red Nichols
Holstorian (tm).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PC, WC style TomkinsSP The Lounge 8 03-14-2018 01:38 PM
New style M&P9? Sweet9ofmine Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 14 01-03-2017 09:42 PM
'New Style' vs Old Style Extractor Ratchets mogwan S&W-Smithing 0 01-01-2013 11:31 PM
I like their style CAJUNLAWYER The Lounge 9 11-30-2009 10:04 PM
Docter style or tube style red dot for model 41 BadaBing11 Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 13 12-23-2008 05:21 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)