Lined Holsters

balin · #1 12-16-2019, 04:43 PM

I have always had unlined holsters. But am looking at getting a smooth lined one from Lobo Gun Leather for concealed carry. I understand about there may be less wear with a lined holster. But was wondering if the slightly added thickness which I am told stiffens it up some would be a positive or more of a negative factor.

squidsix · #2 12-16-2019, 04:45 PM

The stiffness is only present briefly. I have several lined holsters and they all started out a little stiffer than their unlined counterparts, but softened roughly at the same rate.
My nicer blued guns only get carried in lined holsters.
You will like your Lobo holster!

balin · #3 12-16-2019, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squidsix

The stiffness is only present briefly. I have several lined holsters and they all started out a little stiffer than their unlined counterparts, but softened roughly at the same rate.
My nicer blued guns only get carried in lined holsters.
You will like your Lobo holster!

Thanks. I was wondering if the added stiffness would make holstering easier or such. As I know what I am like I know any gun I care much will not look pristine after a while.

M29since14 · #4 12-16-2019, 05:20 PM

I’ve always bought lined holsters. My impression is the same as above. They loosen up soon and are the same as unlined in the stiffness department, or very nearly so. Nonetheless, I do think they offer a very worthwhile improvement in reducing finish wear. I was/am particularly fond of the old Safariland “orthopedic elk” lining and always tried to buy their lined holsters when I could get them. I never thought Bianchi’s lining material was as good, nor holsters made “rough out,” or with smooth leather lining inside. Shame the Safariland holsters are no longer produced, IMO.

ISCS Yoda · #5 12-16-2019, 06:43 PM

COOL! I had parallel questions and I ordered a lined Loboleathers holster for a Walther CCP late last week. I am looking forward to its arrival! Thanks for reading my mind!

rednichols · #6 12-16-2019, 08:30 PM

Not found in the sticky here about leather holster linings, is the following:

Any maker of any size uses clicker dies to make gunleather. That's because they're very cheap and it takes very little volume to justify the increase in speed (that is, savings on labor) including edge treatments and eliminating 'what happened there?' thoughts.

That means that the die used to make the unlined holster, that 50 years ago was the standard, is used to make the lined holster. So one can't use the same thickness of cowhide (horsehide is rarely used though I do use it exclusively) AND add any significant thickness of leather lining; the casting won't go into the holster.

Very early holsters, of 100 years ago, used very thin linings. Notable among them was the half-lined Brill that used 1mm thick calfskin. That's comparable to the thickness of kangaroo and I've used it for that reason.

But those very old holsters did not have their linings glued into position. That's material because when dampened they will fold as easily as an unlined holster. But glue it all down and then stitch it; and the folding becomes so troublesome that the grain of the cowhide can even crack. So when I made Brillalikes I simply had to leave the folded area unglued, but glue the rest down and sew the perimeter to keep the edges from splitting open, in order to wet and hammer the fold down flat as needed for the belt.

Enter Safariland, which company only knew how to make gunleather the way that John and Neale and Gordon knew how: glue it. But Neale did two things: his added suede was quite thin and they weren't folded except sometimes at the belt loop. Then he switched to separate belt loops. Then he switched to Kydex. On these latter holster the split sueded leather is paper thin, even thinner than bookbinding leather as used on the Brills.

So: bottom line is that a traditional gunleather maker will make the cowhide thinner to provide you with a lined version. But it's the cowhide that provides all the stiffness that's available! So such a lined holster is now actually SOFTER than an unlined one.

Add to that the many makers who don't know to hot-air dry their holsters -- the Milt Sparks people expressly have denied following this protocol -- and then a suede lined holster is quite soft.

A 'leather lined' holster -- that is, one made of two layers of cowhide, is another solution. Generally that requires that the holster be designed from scratch to be built that way because now the darned holster is quite thick and difficult to fold. Some companies, such as Bianchi in the olden days, would skive the leather away on the flesh side so that it was thinner at the folds, to make the wet leather fold easily and not crack, either.

A happy medium could be to switch to the very thin kangaroo. Readily available in USA but not used there -- no cutting economy because despite the size of the creatures the resulting skins are quite small. I don't even use it any more because it's very labor intensive to line a holster, and slow because of the gluing.

So I made the switch to the real answer when money is no object: 3mm to 4mm thick horsehide. The flesh side against the pistol is as smooth as a baby's bottom so no lining is even desirable; and horsehide dries in hot air to be as hard and stiff as Kydex. But is still leather and breathes; but again, no cutting economy on horsehide (which destroys the profitability that causes people to be in the business of gunleather at all). I'm an industrial artist so don't worry about such things.

This is not an ad; I'm very close to shutting down my gunleather operations because I turn 70 next month. That's a good thing, I've been doing this since I was about 8; time to let it go as I did motorcycles and other fast things.

balin · #7 12-16-2019, 09:48 PM

Thank you for the Info rednichols. Very interesting and iformative.

Wrangler Rich · #8 12-16-2019, 11:41 PM

Very informative post, Red. I turned 70, 3 weeks ago. Haven't you heard that 70 is the new -------- 70? We are only as old as we feel, and I still feel pretty good. I hope you do too.

WR

rednichols · #9 12-17-2019, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangler Rich

Very informative post, Red. I turned 70, 3 weeks ago. Haven't you heard that 70 is the new -------- 70? We are only as old as we feel, and I still feel pretty good. I hope you do too.

WR

Thanks for that :-). Don't feel old nor am I; likely that's the problem. I suppose I've made the transition to researcher and author, finally? I get more, personally, out of what I discover and publish therefrom, than I do from actually creating 'holstory' on my workbench as I've done since 1970. I've even been dabbling at working out how the world's elections will turn out and I find that very rewarding. "Intelligence is the ability to make connections" a Greek philosopher once wrote and I'd extend that to say "that aren't obviously connected". Very fun to work things out, and go public in advance vs. "I knew that" after it happens. Then to watch it come true :-).

crazyphil · #10 12-17-2019, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Not found in the sticky here about leather holster linings, is the following:

Any maker of any size uses clicker dies to make gunleather. That's because they're very cheap and it takes very little volume to justify the increase in speed (that is, savings on labor) including edge treatments and eliminating 'what happened there?' thoughts.

That means that the die used to make the unlined holster, that 50 years ago was the standard, is used to make the lined holster. So one can't use the same thickness of cowhide (horsehide is rarely used though I do use it exclusively) AND add any significant thickness of leather lining; the casting won't go into the holster.

Very early holsters, of 100 years ago, used very thin linings. Notable among them was the half-lined Brill that used 1mm thick calfskin. That's comparable to the thickness of kangaroo and I've used it for that reason.

But those very old holsters did not have their linings glued into position. That's material because when dampened they will fold as easily as an unlined holster. But glue it all down and then stitch it; and the folding becomes so troublesome that the grain of the cowhide can even crack. So when I made Brillalikes I simply had to leave the folded area unglued, but glue the rest down and sew the perimeter to keep the edges from splitting open, in order to wet and hammer the fold down flat as needed for the belt.

Enter Safariland, which company only knew how to make gunleather the way that John and Neale and Gordon knew how: glue it. But Neale did two things: his added suede was quite thin and they weren't folded except sometimes at the belt loop. Then he switched to separate belt loops. Then he switched to Kydex. On these latter holster the split sueded leather is paper thin, even thinner than bookbinding leather as used on the Brills.

So: bottom line is that a traditional gunleather maker will make the cowhide thinner to provide you with a lined version. But it's the cowhide that provides all the stiffness that's available! So such a lined holster is now actually SOFTER than an unlined one.

Add to that the many makers who don't know to hot-air dry their holsters -- the Milt Sparks people expressly have denied following this protocol -- and then a suede lined holster is quite soft.

A 'leather lined' holster -- that is, one made of two layers of cowhide, is another solution. Generally that requires that the holster be designed from scratch to be built that way because now the darned holster is quite thick and difficult to fold. Some companies, such as Bianchi in the olden days, would skive the leather away on the flesh side so that it was thinner at the folds, to make the wet leather fold easily and not crack, either.

A happy medium could be to switch to the very thin kangaroo. Readily available in USA but not used there -- no cutting economy because despite the size of the creatures the resulting skins are quite small. I don't even use it any more because it's very labor intensive to line a holster, and slow because of the gluing.

So I made the switch to the real answer when money is no object: 3mm to 4mm thick horsehide. The flesh side against the pistol is as smooth as a baby's bottom so no lining is even desirable; and horsehide dries in hot air to be as hard and stiff as Kydex. But is still leather and breathes; but again, no cutting economy on horsehide (which destroys the profitability that causes people to be in the business of gunleather at all). I'm an industrial artist so don't worry about such things.

This is not an ad; I'm very close to shutting down my gunleather operations because I turn 70 next month. That's a good thing, I've been doing this since I was about 8; time to let it go as I did motorcycles and other fast things.

If you are "shutting down" your gunleather operation, I would
sure advise everyone to grab some before it's too late. Here
are a couple of holsters Red made and gifted to me. There has
never been any better gunleather.
Replica of Tom Threeperson's personal holster on the left.
Red's "Brill-Persons" on the right.
By the way, Red also made the belt show in the two photos,
it is a wonderful creation.

crazyphil · #11 12-17-2019, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Thanks for that :-). Don't feel old nor am I; likely that's the problem. I suppose I've made the transition to researcher and author, finally? I get more, personally, out of what I discover and publish therefrom, than I do from actually creating 'holstory' on my workbench as I've done since 1970. I've even been dabbling at working out how the world's elections will turn out and I find that very rewarding. "Intelligence is the ability to make connections" a Greek philosopher once wrote and I'd extend that to say "that aren't obviously connected". Very fun to work things out, and go public in advance vs. "I knew that" after it happens. Then to watch it come true :-).

I do hope you continue to post here on the forum such as the
one you posted above. I have always read your "stuff" and
kept a lot of it. Always found it to be "fairly reliable".

smoothshooter · #12 12-25-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rednichols

Not found in the sticky here
about leather holster linings, is the following:

Any maker of any size uses clicker dies to make gunleather. That's because they're very cheap and it takes very little volume to justify the increase in speed (that is, savings on labor) including edge treatments and eliminating 'what happened there?' thoughts.

That means that the die used to make the unlined holster, that 50 years ago was the standard, is used to make the lined holster. So one can't use the same thickness of cowhide (horsehide is rarely used though I do use it exclusively) AND add any significant thickness of leather lining; the casting won't go into the holster.

Very early holsters, of 100 years ago, used very thin linings. Notable among them was the half-lined Brill that used 1mm thick calfskin. That's comparable to the thickness of kangaroo and I've used it for that reason.

But those very old holsters did not have their linings glued into position. That's material because when dampened they will fold as easily as an unlined holster. But glue it all down and then stitch it; and the folding becomes so troublesome that the grain of the cowhide can even crack. So when I made Brillalikes I simply had to leave the folded area unglued, but glue the rest down and sew the perimeter to keep the edges from splitting open, in order to wet and hammer the fold down flat as needed for the belt.

Enter Safariland, which company only knew how to make gunleather the way that John and Neale and Gordon knew how: glue it. But Neale did two things: his added suede was quite thin and they weren't folded except sometimes at the belt loop. Then he switched to separate belt loops. Then he switched to Kydex. On these latter holster the split sueded leather is paper thin, even thinner than bookbinding leather as used on the Brills.

So: bottom line is that a traditional gunleather maker will make the cowhide thinner to provide you with a lined version. But it's the cowhide that provides all the stiffness that's available! So such a lined holster is now actually SOFTER than an unlined one.

Add to that the many makers who don't know to hot-air dry their holsters -- the Milt Sparks people expressly have denied following this protocol -- and then a suede lined holster is quite soft.

A 'leather lined' holster -- that is, one made of two layers of cowhide, is another solution. Generally that requires that the holster be designed from scratch to be built that way because now the darned holster is quite thick and difficult to fold. Some companies, such as Bianchi in the olden days, would skive the leather away on the flesh side so that it was thinner at the folds, to make the wet leather fold easily and not crack, either.

A happy medium could be to switch to the very thin kangaroo. Readily available in USA but not used there -- no cutting economy because despite the size of the creatures the resulting skins are quite small. I don't even use it any more because it's very labor intensive to line a holster, and slow because of the gluing.

So I made the switch to the real answer when money is no object: 3mm to 4mm thick horsehide. The flesh side against the pistol is as smooth as a baby's bottom so no lining is even desirable; and horsehide dries in hot air to be as hard and stiff as Kydex. But is still leather and breathes; but again, no cutting economy on horsehide (which destroys the profitability that causes people to be in the business of gunleather at all). I'm an industrial artist so don't worry about such things.

This is not an ad; I'm very close to shutting down my gunleather operations because I turn 70 next month. That's a good thing, I've been doing this since I was about 8; time to let it go as I did motorcycles and other fast things.

What are “ clicker dies “ ?

Texas Star · #13 12-26-2019, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M29since14

I’ve always bought lined holsters. My impression is the same as above. They loosen up soon and are the same as unlined in the stiffness department, or very nearly so. Nonetheless, I do think they offer a very worthwhile improvement in reducing finish wear. I was/am particularly fond of the old Safariland “orthopedic elk” lining and always tried to buy their lined holsters when I could get them. I never thought Bianchi’s lining material was as good, nor holsters made “rough out,” or with smooth leather lining inside. Shame the Safariland holsters are no longer produced, IMO.

You saved me saying the very same thing.

A good used Safariland M-29 or the equivalent El Paso Model 2 (still made) are superb.

I really like that green Safariland lining, and never felt it made the holster stiff.

As for stiff or thick lined holsters, well, there are linings and then there are (other) linings...

Jeppo · #14 12-26-2019, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothshooter

What are “ clicker dies “ ?

Think cookie cutters, with the profile of the leather pieces, and the actual cutting done with the dies placed on the leather in a press and die-cut.

StrawHat · #15 12-26-2019, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

...A good used Safariland M-29 or the equivalent El Paso Model 2 (still made) are superb...

For years I used an unlined Safariland 29 to carry a couple of 4” N frames. It was a good enough holster I had it restitched, twice. It was carried everyday on a good belt.

Kevin