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Old 02-12-2020, 09:13 PM
Pig Hunter Pig Hunter is offline
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Default Brill variation ?

Has anyone seen or have a picture of any "Brill" with a hammer shroud/dog ear? I just got a 3.5" 27-2 and want to make one. I have a prototype drawing. Just wanted to see a vintage one. Thanks
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:17 PM
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One is pictured on page 2 of Holstory. Perhaps turnerriver will be along shortly with a picture.

(He won't plug the book, but I will.)

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Old 02-12-2020, 10:19 PM
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Not the usual dog ear, this is the only Brill Iíve seen with a hammer protector.
Please show us what you come up with.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:06 PM
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Thanks much! I'm not going to do the half lining. The dog ear may be closer to the Myres Threepersons style. Will do the welts, May cheat and do a seam instead of folding over to form the top of the belt loop. I don't carve so it will have to be stamped. Keep your fingers crossed, Mark
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:02 AM
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Thanks much! I'm not going to do the half lining. The dog ear may be closer to the Myres Threepersons style. Will do the welts, May cheat and do a seam instead of folding over to form the top of the belt loop. I don't carve so it will have to be stamped. Keep your fingers crossed, Mark
A true Brill is VERY hard to make. And that is a big reason that the Threepersons that followed, became the standard: EASY to make by comparison -- no cuff, no lip, no lining, less leather by far, etc.

And once one leaves out the hard parts -- the sewing at the tips of the cuff, the exposed lip at the muzzle, the half lining, the integral belt loop, the 1-3 welts, the closed muzzle -- well, it's not really a Brill is it? All that's left to turn it into a common Threepersons is to leave off the cuff!

We call these Notabrills; as opposed to Brillalikes that are the same in every way but made by someone else, including its originator, N. J. Rabensbug. So Myres', which lacked the lining and the cuff was very far away from the bottom edge of the belt, was a Notabrill.

Brill variation ?-myres-1-jpg

A Sessums, which is identical except for using a different sewing pattern for the tips of the cuffs, is a Brillalike. This one is a King Ranch; please note the narrow belt and how tightly the cuff is butted up against its lower edge:

Brill variation ?-king-ranch-2-jpg

When copying/cloning, be aware there are two 'eras' of Brill-marked holsters. This one was made by Kluge for Brill before 1932 and these only have one welt:

Brill variation ?-1-brill-earliest-jpg-4-jpg

This one was made by Rabensburg for Brill beginning 1932 and typically have three welt layers, handstitched:

Brill variation ?-brill-da-rev-8-jpg

The two are VERY different and in many ways. August Brill and his son Arno were not leatherworkers but rather merchants and later real estate investors (Brillville on Lake Austin, for example, a fishing resort) and so had the two men, in different time periods, make their leather products including saddles.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:08 AM
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Is the EPS Austin a Brill knockoff....

The originals are such design works of art...

Thanks...Bob
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:28 AM
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Not the usual dog ear, this is the only Brill Iíve seen with a hammer protector.
Please show us what you come up with.
Regards,
turnerriver
John,

The depth of your collection never ceases to amaze me. That is one NEAT holster.


So......what other Brill treasures are you hiding?
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:38 AM
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Here is a Brill like that Doc Barranti made for me several years ago.
It is his Ranger model with addition of the "dog ear".
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:46 AM
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Not the usual dog ear, this is the only Brill Iíve seen with a hammer protector.
Please show us what you come up with.
Regards,
turnerriver
John, that is one beautiful holster! What gun fits it? Thanks.
Larry
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:01 PM
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I do these projects for myself. I've done a Myres style Threepersons and just want to try this. If I can't get the holster body folded back over and into the cuff I'll go to plan B and put it in and stitch across the top the way Red did on the one he made for Phil. Thanks Phil for posting that picture. Leather work is easier for me than computers, so when it is done I will try to post pictures. Thank you to everyone who has posted ant Brill pictures and info in the past as that is my inspiration for this project.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:44 PM
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I do these projects for myself. I've done a Myres style Threepersons and just want to try this. If I can't get the holster body folded back over and into the cuff I'll go to plan B and put it in and stitch across the top the way Red did on the one he made for Phil. Thanks Phil for posting that picture. Leather work is easier for me than computers, so when it is done I will try to post pictures. Thank you to everyone who has posted ant Brill pictures and info in the past as that is my inspiration for this project.
Your welcome Pig Hunter, but it was made by Doc Barranti,
not Red Nichols. I have a couple by Red, but not with a "dog ear"
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:25 PM
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Your welcome Pig Hunter, but it was made by Doc Barranti,
not Red Nichols. I have a couple by Red, but not with a "dog ear"
Phil, he means this one of yours, with the fender attached separately:

Brill variation ?-nss-jpg
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Old 02-13-2020, 05:01 PM
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Phil, he means this one of yours, with the fender attached separately:

Attachment 434146
Sorry, I thought he was talking about the holster
I show above in this thread.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:39 PM
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John, that is one beautiful holster! What gun fits it? Thanks.
Larry
4Ē N frame.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:29 PM
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Is the EPS Austin a Brill knockoff....

The originals are such design works of art...

Thanks...Bob
Brill variation ?-070-jpg a present-day EPS (not the original company).

Let's call the EPS 'Austin' a Notabrill; because EPS clearly doesn't understand the design's basis. For a Brill, the cuff, at both sides of the holster pocket, is the lowermost edge of the belt tunnel; whereas EPS has used the cuff as an ornament.

Forming the lowermost part of the tunnel requires more than just spacing the cuff ends from the fold, to suit; both ends have to be parallel to the fold to prevent the holster from tipping constantly on the belt. Capt Hughes clearly understood what's considered to be a modern principal: that the belt fill the loop so that the pistol would always be where you expect it to be, and at the chosen angle. A hundred years ago (even the carry angle, which was the basis for the FBI Tilt)!

Brill variation ?-nelson-long-4-jpg a Brill by Rabensburg (so a 'late).

Further, the Brill is made with the cuff ALWAYS at the same position on the holster body regardless of belt width; so for a narrow belt of 1-1/2" the SAA holster has the fold directly above the open end of the welt, at the guard. But for a wider belt the FOLD is raised to make space; still the cuff is not moved. I reckon this is much more than pedantry by these original makers; the cuff is an important part of the grip on the pistol so is always at the same point, preventing the holster from expanding.

On a crossdraw Brill, of which EPS also makes a version, the original has additional hand sewing (in an 'X' as I recall) to then form the lowermost edge of the tunnel; because, again, the cuff is left where it is on the strong-side draw but, that one side of the cuff no longer being functional, a support was needed to replace that end. The EPS has the cuff placed 'wherever'.

The EPS is NotaBrill :-).
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:23 PM
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I have the pattern cut out. I noticed the flap in the back would have been pulled up to the holster body resulting in the grip angle being moved from the body. Perhaps the toe welts help keep the grip closer to the body?
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:23 PM
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Pictures of a left handed Brillalike by Red that I took while I briefly had custody of the holster.

Red has pictures of a "deconstructed" Brill that might be helpful. Also in the book.
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Brill variation ?-nichols-red-brill-gm-lh-10-19-jpg   Brill variation ?-nichols-red-brill-gm-lh-10-19-b-jpg   Brill variation ?-nichols-red-brill-gm-lh-10-19-c-jpg  
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:52 AM
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"I noticed the flap in the back would have been pulled up to the holster body "
No idea what that phrase is meant to convey? What is the 'flap in the back' and what is 'pulled up'?

Images that SG-688 suggested, for the Brill styles:

Brill variation ?-provenance-patterns-revolvers-6-jpg Brill variation ?-auto-3-jpg

I have Sessums, too; and a pair of Myres Threepersons. Even a King Ranch, the much larger holster that the Brill is cut down from. Apparently the style, that I would want to call a Texas Ranger holster, was then known as a Sunday holster; according to Texas Ranger Captain Sterling whose book is on my shelf. "For the city and not for the trail", a truism because it indeed was created for the cities and lacking a hammer thong, aka 'retreating strap', it wasn't suited to use on horseback while outside the cities (no horses for them inside Austin then).
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:02 PM
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I was trying (obviously not well) was the folded over part being the back flap. My observation was that when the pouch portion of the holster was closed it appeared to force the back flap toward the holster. That brings the muzzle closer to the leg and the grip farther away from the torso. The intention of the wedge at the muzzle may move the muzzle farther from the leg and the grip closer to the torso than say a Myres style Threepersons. Has anyone that has carried with the Brill style and a Myres Threepersons noticed a big difference in how close the grip hugs your side?
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:37 PM
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I was trying (obviously not well) was the folded over part being the back flap. My observation was that when the pouch portion of the holster was closed it appeared to force the back flap toward the holster. That brings the muzzle closer to the leg and the grip farther away from the torso. The intention of the wedge at the muzzle may move the muzzle farther from the leg and the grip closer to the torso than say a Myres style Threepersons. Has anyone that has carried with the Brill style and a Myres Threepersons noticed a big difference in how close the grip hugs your side?
Well, there is a purpose behind the construction of the muzzle area in the Sunday holster; and it originated in the King Ranch. It appears to be intended to take all the pressure off the pistol's muzzle end so that the pistol will lay flat down there. In making them I see no evidence that it affects the other end of the pistol! That is controlled by the flatness of the fold of the fender behind the pocket itself; and in a lined version that relies on the lining not being glued at least at the folded area (originals are not glued anywhere).

Otherwise a Brill IS a Threepersons; even Myres called his version a Threepersons. The Threepersons is literally a Sunday holster with it's fender abbreviated severely and attached directly to the backside of the holster, with the cuff therefore eliminated and the extended lip, too.

Some pics:

Brill variation ?-how-lates-5-jpg

Brill variation ?-welt-late-1-jpg

Brill variation ?-bmcgilvray-brill-5-jpg

Brill variation ?-how-lates-4-jpg

Notice the nomenclature in the third image, which helps us communicate when discussing the parts of a Brill. It was the effort to describe what we call 'clocking' today (position of a holster around the waist) that led to the miscommunication about what 'appendix' carry is: Jeff Cooper trying to use words instead of images (and not understanding biology very well). So he used just four positions as a guide only: appendix, right kidney, left kidney, and spleen. For that reason folks today feel that is authorization to place a 'hot' 1911 over those organs as 'safe' (look up where the appendix and spleen really are).
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:30 PM
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Well I've got it cut out and tooled. Built a welt stack and glued it together. I was looking at the picture of the partially completed Rabensburg and got dyslexic and got it upside down. Since this is probably the only one I'll make I am using cardboard instead of wood to put into the holster body to hold the welt stack in position as I stitch. The biggest challenge is going to be getting the body folded over into the cuff. I really appreciate all your help and all the pictures that have been posted. Mark
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Old 02-16-2020, 04:24 PM
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So it is finished! Pictures taking all during the process I just have to figure out how to post them. I did figure out something for Red. The stitching on the front fender cuff stitching that is different than the back is because if you use a single needle and go through all the pre punched holes yo can cinch it tight after the holster body is through the cuff. At least that's how I did it. I'll see if it carries different than a Myres style Threepersons after if dries out. Thanks much to all who contributed to this with pictures and advice. Now can someone direct me to the instructions for posting pictures for dumbies?
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Old 02-16-2020, 04:39 PM
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Let us know if this doesn’t help.
Regards,
turnerriver

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Old 02-18-2020, 10:59 PM
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Ok here is the holster and M-27. I have been carrying it for 2 days. My impressions are the "dog ear" works great, the fender makes the belt tunnel solid. I needed to get the welt wider for more grip. that can be worked on. The cuff is nice and tight with the trick I used. Doing pictures is harder than making the holster:-).
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:41 AM
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Here is another kinda Brilly looking holster, made by David Keith a few
years ago.
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