Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > The Lounge
Forum Register Expert Commentary Members List


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-28-2009, 07:15 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Normandie, France
Posts: 337
Likes: 13
Liked 46 Times in 20 Posts
Default Uberti 1860 Army

Last year I bought this gun here in France. I have used it 4 or 5 times at the range. The last time I cleaned it I found that one of the barrel locking or locating pins had come out, and the other was loose. I couldnít find the missing one, so I returned the gun to the shop where I bought it to buy a replacement and a couple of spares.

They thought there was a possible safety issue, so they kept the gun for the gunsmith to look at. That must be at least nearly 2 months ago. The last time I called in they told me hunting gun repairs were being given priority as the season was fast approaching (it actually started yesterday).

I am sure that there is no safety issue. Just replace the pin, re-assemble and start loading. Itís nice to know the shop are being cautious, but I am sure that there is no serious problem. I only wish they had told me it would take time as they had a backlog of repairs.

On 1 September I sent an e-mail to Uberti in Italy asking if this was a common problem, and asking if the pins were standard replacement items. I received an automated reply the same day. Since then nothing.

I also bought a stainless Pietta 1858 in 2006 and have had no problems at all with that gun. Remington clearly had a far better design than Colt, and Pietta have made a superb replica. I would imagine the Uberti version of that gun is equally good.

I just wondered if anyone else had had problems with the 1860, or indeed any of the Colts.
__________________
Kill it, cook it, eat it.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-28-2009, 11:01 AM
Evil Dog's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal Desert
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 400
Liked 439 Times in 192 Posts
Default

If my understanding is correct, there is no real safety issue. Those pins fit into a recess in the hammer face to more or less "lock" the hammer between nipples and to keep the cylinder from accidently turning when being carried. Supposedly could carry with all 6 chambers loaded and capped that way. Personally I feel it is much safer just to load and cap 5 of the chambers and then carry with the hammer down on the EMPTY chamber. The 1860 Army will function just fine without those pins.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-28-2009, 11:28 AM
Andy Griffith's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northeast Georgia
Posts: 4,863
Likes: 62
Liked 447 Times in 232 Posts
Default

Evildog, I think he is referring to the pins on the front of the frame that engage the barrel, rather than the pins found on the rear of some cylinders used as a "safety" notch.

I have had the pins come out on a 1851 steel framed Pietta.
I simply used the red colored Loctite to secure it back in the frame, and have never had an issue since.

Just order a new pin, which can be had here through VTI gun parts.

Here is a link to the 1860 Army page of the Uberti at VTI:
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/sho...erti+1860+Army
Part #23, and they are $1.75 US plus shipping.

I sincerely doubt that you would have a problem ordering this part internationally, since they are only pins- which could be for anything. If you do have trouble, a good gunsmith should have had this taken care of with nothing more than some steel rod, hardened if possible, and cut to the correct length and installed.

Once you get them, gently hammer it into place after coating it with Loctite. Just be certain to wipe any excess off the outside of the pin.

If they cannot ship them to you, there should be a Uberti parts distributor around France or Italy that should.


I take it that it would be a "faux pax" to obtain a Kirst or R&D cartridge conversion cylinder in .45 Schofield or .44 Colt in France for that revolver without paperwork? I just ordered one myself after shooting one my friend had this past weekend.
__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Last edited by Andy Griffith; 09-28-2009 at 11:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-28-2009, 11:55 AM
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: utah
Posts: 13,160
Likes: 2,550
Liked 6,759 Times in 2,965 Posts
Default

To simpify matters, the "pin" that holds the barrel on is known as a "barrel wedge".
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-28-2009, 12:39 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Normandie, France
Posts: 337
Likes: 13
Liked 46 Times in 20 Posts
Default locking pins

Andy got it. I agree with what you say. If I don't have any luck I will order from VTI.

I am not talking about the wedge that holds the barrel to the frame, but the pins that stop it turning. They are so small, it seems silly that the shop that sold the gun can't just replace the missing one. Evil is talking about something else. Thanks anyway you guys.

As to the conversion, I would love to have one, but that changes the nature of the gun, and its classification. As a black powder replica I needed an electricity bill to show that I live in France and ID. For a Category 4 revolver I have to go through loads of time consuming formalites. I assume the same applies for a conversion.

If someone was to send me one, I would be pleased to accept it and pay. Just as a matter of interest, how much are they?
__________________
Kill it, cook it, eat it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Evil Dog's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal Desert
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 400
Liked 439 Times in 192 Posts
Default

anglaispierre.... I still can't envision the pins that you are talking about. The "pin" that stops the cylinder from turning is actually a rectangular looking piece of metal that rises from the bottom of the frame to engage the rectangular cuts in the side of the cylinder.... it is called a "bolt" and is #12 in this diagram. (The diagram is actually an 1851 Navy but the mechanics are pretty much the same.)



The cylinder pins I was originally referencing are #41.

Which pins do you mean?

Oops, just went back to your original post and noticed you had said "barrel locking pins". Those would be #23 in the diagram. If nothing else you could make them yourself out of a proper diameter nail. Glue in place with Loc-Tite or epoxy.

Last edited by Evil Dog; 09-28-2009 at 01:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-28-2009, 01:11 PM
Andy Griffith's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northeast Georgia
Posts: 4,863
Likes: 62
Liked 447 Times in 232 Posts
Default

"Kirst Konverter" is a 5-shot .45 Schofield conversion for the 1860 Army.

Kirst Cartridge Konverter for Pietta 1860 45 Schofield Cowboy Gun

You can use a Dremel tool and cut/file the frame out on the right side and use the loading gate with the Kirst Konverter if you buy the ejector that replaces the loading gate:
Kirst Cartridge Konverter Ejector Assembly ONLY for Uberti 1851 Percussion Cowboy Gun

The R&D conversion cylinder is a simple drop in and doesn't have a loading gate.
R&D Cartridge Conversion Cylinder Engraved for 1860 Pietta Cowboy Gun in 45 Long Colt

Both of them usually need just a bit of filing with a needle file on the ratchets to fit in the gun- just like fitting another percussion cylinder.

I wouldn't recommend trying to get this shipped from the US to France...US customs would likely get it if the shipper wasn't up on the laws of the "international transport of arms act" or something like that. Also, the shipper would likely have a knock on his door from the US State Department or Commerce Department if laws weren't followed.

I do believe that Brownells sells these cylinders, and they do more international shipping of gun parts than any other company in the US- they can answer the question if they can ship that to you.
__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-28-2009, 01:27 PM
Vegetaman's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Illinois (not Chicago)
Posts: 969
Likes: 2,420
Liked 282 Times in 141 Posts
Default

I have a Remington and a Colt 1860 Army (we never did buy Uberti), and I personally like the Colt better than the Remington, myself. The Remington is more apt to jam.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: utah
Posts: 13,160
Likes: 2,550
Liked 6,759 Times in 2,965 Posts
Default

Hey! I bet he means #23 in your diagram. I forgot about those myself!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-28-2009, 03:45 PM
David LaPell's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,849
Likes: 274
Liked 2,291 Times in 796 Posts
Default

I can tell you what I think of Uberti after the 5 month ordeal of what I had with my Dragoon. I purchased it brand new, and then the gun would not, and I mean would not come apart. The barrel wedge would come out, but you could not separate the barrel from the frame to clean the gun. So, I sent the gun back to Uberty, 5 months went by, when I got the gun back, the paperwork stated that "the owner needs to read the manual per method of disassembly". They touched nothing. I called them, I was told over the phone how to take the gun apart, and then told by the tech to use the rammer until the gun comes apart, or the rammer breaks in which case they would replace that. So I told the guy I was not about to break my own gun, and I sent it back. A month or so later, the gun came back, nothing was done, again a note saying "suggest owner reads manual per disassembly". No matter how many times I told the people at uberti the issues, and the fact that I had been owning and shooting black powder revolvers since I was 18, it didn't matter. So I turned the gun over to my local Smith, who told me after he worked on it that the pins where the frame met the barrel were too big, and the barrel wedge was also slightly oversized. But after Uberti not once, but twice, couldn't fix their own gun, and then essentially told me that I didn't know what I was doing, I wasn't about to keep their gun. As far as Pietta guns, I have had several, never a problem with any of those. In all fairness though, my Uberti Walker never gave me any trouble. But I have found that I like Pietta revolvers and Pedersoli or Zoli rifles.
__________________
Vaya con Dios
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-28-2009, 05:39 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Normandie, France
Posts: 337
Likes: 13
Liked 46 Times in 20 Posts
Default

That's right - #23 in diagram.
Vegetaman - my Remington hardly ever jams but the Uberti always does unless I hold it upright as I cock it after every shot.

Evil Dog - glad you found it.

Andy - thanks for all the info.
__________________
Kill it, cook it, eat it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-28-2009, 07:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,996
Likes: 6,386
Liked 3,068 Times in 1,721 Posts
Default

anglaispierre-

I thought you meant No. 23...

It's a poor gunsmith who can't fix that, and quickly! The comments here should fix that.

In original use, in the US Civil War, the Remington had a reputation for gumming up sooner than the Colt, but it may have taken several cylinders fired to cause that. I'm trying to learn more about that.

The solid Remington frame was certainly stronger, and the Army insisted on that in their new revolver in 1873.

Colts were held in high esteem, though, and were the most mentioned brand, from what I've seen. Col. John S. Mosby (CSA) mentioned the .44 Colts several times in his memoirs, but not other brands, although his command probably encountered them.

I have a Uberti 1860 Army .44, and it is better made than my Pietta Remington .44. But I have no easy access to black powder, so they are mainly collectors items, in my case.

On another matter, while we have someone in France to answer, do you see many Ruger revolvers in police service there? Someone on a Ruger forum asked that, but got mostly negative answers about the French people. I understand that both the SP-101 and the GP -100 are used to a considerable degree, in addition to Manurhin making a spin-off of the older Security-Six. (This is NOT their famed MR-73.)

Last edited by Texas Star; 09-28-2009 at 07:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-28-2009, 07:24 PM
Vegetaman's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Illinois (not Chicago)
Posts: 969
Likes: 2,420
Liked 282 Times in 141 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglaispierre View Post
That's right - #23 in diagram.
Vegetaman - my Remington hardly ever jams but the Uberti always does unless I hold it upright as I cock it after every shot.
The Remington seems to jam with blown pistol caps that fall down behind the cylinder. The Colt seems to not have this problem, in my experience. But, I do not own an Uberti, either.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-29-2009, 03:16 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Normandie, France
Posts: 337
Likes: 13
Liked 46 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
anglaispierre-




On another matter, while we have someone in France to answer, do you see many Ruger revolvers in police service there? Someone on a Ruger forum asked that, but got mostly negative answers about the French people. I understand that both the SP-101 and the GP -100 are used to a considerable degree, in addition to Manurhin making a spin-off of the older Security-Six. (This is NOT their famed MR-73.)
Have never seen any revolvers. Gendarmes and Customs all have semi-autos. One I spoke to a couple of days ago had a Sig Sauer, but I am sure that one who came to my house one time had a Glock. I live in a rural area, so I can't comment on what they have in large towns, but whenever I leave France or return Customs have semi-autos in the ports/ferry terminals.
__________________
Kill it, cook it, eat it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:31 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Normandie, France
Posts: 337
Likes: 13
Liked 46 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Uberti sent me a number of replacement pins direct from Italy. I was able to shoot the gun this morning. It shoots very high, so I have to aim very low on the target, about 10" below the bull at 25 yards.

I did contact VTI who confirmed they could ship replacement pins to me in France. I have saved their address for future use.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:38 AM
stanws6's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: S.E. Pennsylvania
Posts: 130
Likes: 92
Liked 20 Times in 12 Posts
Default

anglaispierre , I have several reproduction revolvers from different manufacturers. Every one shoots high out of the box. My understanding is that the guns dimensions are copied from originals and that Colt and Remington sighted their guns in at 50 yards. I have had good luck using silver solder to build up the front sight. It's a little tricky and the heat needed to melt the solder usually messes up the bluing on the end of the barrel. Since mine are shooters I just touch them up with cold blue and keep on going. If you want to keep the gun as nice as possible it's probably better to leave it alone.
__________________
Stan

"Get off my lawn."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Evil Dog's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal Desert
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 400
Liked 439 Times in 192 Posts
Default

Rather than silver solder, it would probably be a bit easier to build up the front sight a bit with JB Weld.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Vulcan Bob's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: central pa
Posts: 3,804
Likes: 528
Liked 539 Times in 299 Posts
Default

I have a second gen Colt 1860 army that shot way high. Had a smith install a nice and tall new front sight that I call the shark fin! Shoots to point of aim now. As far as reliabilty goes, the Army has been trouble free but I have a Colt second gen 1861 Navy that basicly fell apart before I got two cylinders full out of it. Sent it back to Colt with a note stateing that this revolver was to be shot and not just looked at. It's fine after Colt sent it back but the pity of it is that it shot to point of aim before the new hammer (one of many new parts) was installed, now it's the normal way high.
__________________
Stay safe people!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:53 PM
Step N. Mud's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
Liked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Can also deepen the hammer notch a bit with a dremel tool cut off wheel, it don't hurt none. or heaven help us, a old fashion hack saw to lower the POI.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

I used to shoot the cap&ball revolvers a lot.Today,I have and use a Uberti made Colt second model dragoon which I will keep.The Colt percussion revolver design (which I prefer) has it's quirks,which I suppose may be part of it's charm.

Among several other of it's idiosyncrasies,One of the pins you refer to can quite commonly slip out when stripping the gun or on occasion wedge in the opposing hole in the barrel unit when slightly oversized.These pins are press fitted in their recess and sometimes the fit will be either too tight in one or too loose in one hole or the other.I've had more than one come out while dissasemblying.

Repairs of this nature are very easy and only require a modest amount of gunsmith skill.

Two problems noted are common with most of the cap&ball revolvers such as hitting high on target and getting a jam from fired cap debris.

Another very common quirk is for it's loading lever to drop during recoil.This is usually because the notch catch is slipping and is very easy to solve with a few strokes of a needle file.Sometimes it will be because the spring is not strong enough in which case a small wedge installed behind the spring will normally work very well.


If you ever have another problem with seperating the barrel unit from the receiver,place a piece of leather between rammer and cylinder and use a bit more force when pushing the rammer against the cylinder face.It should come loose.

Last edited by canoe on the yukon; 10-18-2009 at 10:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:32 PM
Vulcan Bob's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: central pa
Posts: 3,804
Likes: 528
Liked 539 Times in 299 Posts
Default

Hey Step N mud, done that to a CVA 1860 Army, works great! But I dont have the heart to bugger up the Colt hammer.
__________________
Stay safe people!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-30-2009, 08:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default colt 1860

hi guys i was reading the tread,about your colt problems , the best way to deal with a low front sight on a uberti is to take the sight out get a flat bottom af tap and thread the hole you are able to get about four good threads in there, then get a brass screw the same thread put it in your electric drill and turn it down with a file leave a few threads on the end an youv'e got a new sight that wont come out ,file to suit your point of aim.someone talked about filling the hammer notch deeper to change the point of aim ,this wont work unless you file a bit of the hammer lip because deepening the notch wont move the point of aim unless you use the bottom of the notch to sight with which is no good at all.you can take a little bit of the hammer nose but dont overdo that or you will start to see the rear of the barrel through your sight .the best way is to replace the front sight as stated .if you have any more problems let me know ,i have a great way of curing long or creeping trigger pulls if anyone wants to know just write me .
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-30-2009, 09:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: OK. U.S.A.
Posts: 839
Likes: 3
Liked 122 Times in 82 Posts
Default

I've owned a number of Italian Colt clone BP revolvers.

They are prone to issues with parts breakage, and the internal parts are rather crudely made.

The Colt single action design itself was prone to small parts breakage. Notably the bolt/trigger spring, and the hand spring, plus the hand itself. All parts that tend to break on the clones.

Something that makes the parts breakage issue worse is the fact that there isn't much parts interchangeability between manufacturers versions of the guns. Seemingly every maker's version differing in internal geometry!

I have a Pietta stainless Remington clone, and it has been the best BP revolver by far. No mechanical issues with it, and it's internal parts seem way better made than any of the Colt clone's internals.

What to do with a broken Colt clone BP revolver? I've been making my own small parts as needed. Simply because I can machine a hunk of hardened keystock into a better/tougher part than the crude cast pieces the Italian makers are using.

I've made triggers, bolt springs, hands and hand springs, welded and recut hammer notches too.

I have not seen a decent percussian Colt clone! My wife bought me a Pietta .36 Navy back in the 1990's and it had issues from the box(should have sent it back to Cabela's). Very poorly fitted. Then I got a stainless Pietta Remington clone, and it's much, much better made! Can't explain that....almost like the Remington clone came from an entirely different factory that cared about quality.

I can't say if everybodys Remington clones are as good, because the Pietta is the only one I have owned or messed with.

I had heard the Uberti clones were the best of the Italian made guns. And they were the makers of the second generation Colt percussian revolvers, or at least the parts.

I have noted that Uberti's overall quality has improved greatly on the Clone single action army revolvers they make. To the point that they redesigned the hand spring and hand in these guns.

The guns are fun and cheap to shoot, and they can be very accurate with a bit of work on the sights. However I can't say much good about the internal parts! I pickup a broken clunker every so often as a parts gun, or to tinker back to functional, and even guns of the same make really are not interchangeable!

The Colt clone guns have probably sold a bunch of Ruger Old Army revolvers.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-30-2009, 11:03 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

hi steve ,yes our club purchased two uberti navy colts recently and they were complete junk, everything and i mean everything went wrong with them ,loading lever retainer catch fell out of the barrel, the, cylinder main frame pin got loose in the frame ,timing went out, main spring wouldent fire caps ,front of the loading lever cracked and the retainer and spring jumped out ,these new uberties are complete junk .i have an old pocket police ,the last of the stainless steel ones uberti ever made and i must say it is a jem to own and shoot .i have it now for about 15-20 years it still has all origional screws even though i shoot and completly strip this little pistol twice weekly.but the newer ones are are soft as lead..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brownells, cartridge, colt, ejector, engraved, glock, gunsmith, leather, lock, pedersoli, remington, ruger, sauer, schofield, sig arms, uberti

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
The Lounge Thread, Uberti 1860 Army in General Topics; Last year I bought this gun here in France. I have used it 4 or 5 times at the range. ...
LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/102566-uberti-1860-army.html
Posted By For Type Date
converting a uberti walker over to r&d in 45bpm - Info.com This thread Refback 04-07-2013 10:08 PM
uberti walker with r&d conversion - Info.com This thread Refback 04-04-2013 07:03 PM

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1860's Revolver ? lorenzoj S&W Antiques 8 01-09-2014 05:10 PM
Traditions (Pietta) 1860 Colt Army .44 David LaPell Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 4 08-07-2011 06:25 PM
1860 Army Revolver & Holster S&W Fan4EVR GUNS - For Sale or Trade 3 04-14-2011 08:46 AM
Help Identify Colt 1860?? revho Firearms & Knives - Other Brands 15 02-20-2011 05:43 PM
WTS/WTT: 1st Model Richards Conversion 1860 Army by R&D Gunworks (Kenny Howell) RonC GUNS - For Sale or Trade 0 07-09-2009 12:46 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 AM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)