Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > The Lounge
Forum Register Expert Commentary Members List


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-05-2009, 10:22 PM
papalondog's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 416
Likes: 3
Liked 50 Times in 9 Posts
Question Walther info/value

Any of you folks familiar with Walther's? My dealer has a NIB, mint Walther model PP German .22. It looks just like this one pictured. On the other side it is stamped with the Interarm VA stuff. My dealer thinks it is a steal at $800. It IS a beauty, but I have no idea of the value. This is the pre PPK gun if I understand it correctly. Any info or help is appreciated. Lonnie

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-05-2009, 11:29 PM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,733
Likes: 3,469
Liked 2,162 Times in 975 Posts
Default

The last PPK .22 that I saw for sale was also marked at $800.00. That was about two years ago.
__________________
Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:33 AM
sub-moa's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Florida, A Third Wo
Posts: 324
Likes: 17
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Typed up an eloquent and complete response to your question earlier, but upon hitting "Post" it disappeared ...

Short answer...If it really is "Mint" as described and is boxed w/ spare magazine and paperwork, $800 is a very good price.

Its brother is for sale on GunRobbe...I mean GunBroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=145485753 right now.

Off the top of my head, it looks like a post war "French" machined, "West German" finished and Ulm proofed, Interarms import. If the boxes are the same, it was probably imported in the '70s...older boxes were reddish "alligator" while later boxes were black plastic. They were produced for Walther by Manurhin from '54 thru '85 and have a serial number suffix of LR. There are minor variations to the markings, but the serial number should appear on the right side of the slide (below ejection port) and vertically behind the trigger guard on the frame. You'll also find a post war "Eagle over N" proof" on some combination of frame, slide and/or barrel hood. Check the frame below the ejection port for the Ulm Proofhouse "antler" proofmark and a two digit date such as 75 for 1975. BTW, on .32s/.380s these markings are on the barrel hood. Likely with .22s is a two letter date code instead of two digits, but in the same location(s). The date code would begin with the capital letters H (for 7) or I (for 8) followed either A (0)/B (1)/C (2)/D (3)/E (4)/F (5) etc...Example: IF = '85...

BTW, the PP was first introduced in '29 followed by the PPK in '31 and finally the PPK/s in '68. Sooooo, though PP models appeared before PPK models, your PP is about 40 years late to be considered a "pre PPK gun" ...

Beware though...If there is a Collector/Accumulator bone in your body be prepared for an addiction ...

Best of luck with your new purchase
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:48 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 1,116
Liked 391 Times in 193 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sub-moa View Post
Typed up an eloquent and complete response to your question earlier, but upon hitting "Post" it disappeared ...

Short answer...If it really is "Mint" as described and is boxed w/ spare magazine and paperwork, $800 is a very good price.

Its brother is for sale on GunRobbe...I mean GunBroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=145485753 right now.

Off the top of my head, it looks like a post war "French" machined, "West German" finished and Ulm proofed, Interarms import. If the boxes are the same, it was probably imported in the '70s...older boxes were reddish "alligator" while later boxes were black plastic. They were produced for Walther by Manurhin from '54 thru '85 and have a serial number suffix of LR. There are minor variations to the markings, but the serial number should appear on the right side of the slide (below ejection port) and vertically behind the trigger guard on the frame. You'll also find a post war "Eagle over N" proof" on some combination of frame, slide and/or barrel hood. Check the frame below the ejection port for the Ulm Proofhouse "antler" proofmark and a two digit date such as 75 for 1975. BTW, on .32s/.380s these markings are on the barrel hood. Likely with .22s is a two letter date code instead of two digits, but in the same location(s). The date code would begin with the capital letters H (for 7) or I (for 8) followed either A (0)/B (1)/C (2)/D (3)/E (4)/F (5) etc...Example: IF = '85...

BTW, the PP was first introduced in '29 followed by the PPK in '31 and finally the PPK/s in '68. Sooooo, though PP models appeared before PPK models, your PP is about 40 years late to be considered a "pre PPK gun" ...

Beware though...If there is a Collector/Accumulator bone in your body be prepared for an addiction ...

Best of luck with your new purchase
I don't mean to hijack Papa's thread, but the timing is uncanny, and 'sub-moa' looks to know his "PP stuff"... I just came across a .32 pre-war 'crown N' marked PP that is being offered at $650. I'm guessing here, but I'd say it's in 80%+ condition. Decent blueing, but overall kind of thining; some holster wear, good grips, good bore, some very light surface rust in various areas of the gun, and wear on the back strap. It's just the gun, and what looks to be a police holster. It had a beautiful slide action, and very nice trigger. What do you think of this deal...?

Papalondog, the one you are looking at sounds like a nice NIB piece, probably not easy to come by in that condition, so $800 is probably not a bad price; good luck...

DMAR
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by dmar; 11-06-2009 at 12:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:53 AM
papalondog's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 416
Likes: 3
Liked 50 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Thanks for the info. I remember a 5 digit serial number beginning with a 5 and after the 5 digits it had LR. My dealer will let me take pics, so if I get really interested, I'll post them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:59 AM
Thiokol's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northeast, Illinois
Posts: 4,966
Likes: 13
Liked 278 Times in 95 Posts
Default

Lonnie,

Contact forum member searcher451. His name is Bill Florence and he's a Super Moderator on the Walther Forum. Tell him that I referred you to him. He'll give you the right answers about the PP. He's your neighbor and a college professor in Salem.

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-06-2009, 02:23 AM
sub-moa's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Florida, A Third Wo
Posts: 324
Likes: 17
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by papalondog View Post
Thanks for the info. I remember a 5 digit serial number beginning with a 5 and after the 5 digits it had LR. My dealer will let me take pics, so if I get really interested, I'll post them.
IIRC, .22 PP serial numbers ended around the mid-50K mark in '85, and yep, as mentioned earlier, they all ended with the LR suffix...

See mention of the Ulm Proof and two letter date code from my original response, the later the PP, the more likely it'll have a two letter code on the right side of the frame below the ejection port, instead of a two digit code.

Searcher451 is a Super Moderator over at Walther Forum and we've corresponded several times on this very subject, dating various PP series pistols, there on Walther Forum.... Hopefully he'll be home and have his reference materials at hand, if so he'll have the ability to be more specific.

BTW FWIW, if I wasn't awfully sure of the "right answers", I wouldn't post an answer at all, even with an "Off the top of my head" caveat . I'm away from home working, as usual, so my reference materials are not available to me. I doubt I posted anything off the mark, but we'll see. Pulling panties out of a bunch ...OK, that's better ...

Post pics when you get 'em papa...

DMAR...Thanks for the kind words, but they are undeserved. Pre-war and wartime PP/PPK pistols are a cult all their own. I've never been able to afford to be a member of that cult ...I've been forced to limit my interest strictly to variations of post war PP, PPK and PPK/s pistols...I remember a bit about the post war pistols because I'm always on the lookout for Walthers that fit in my limited area of accumulation . You might read through the Walther Forums or better...for Zella Mehlis pistols...the PP/PPK section of the P38 Forum. Sorry ...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-06-2009, 02:52 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,009
Likes: 6,411
Liked 3,102 Times in 1,732 Posts
Default

Hit Wikipedia under "Walther PP" or PPK.

You'll learn most of what you may want to know. Some nice pix, too, and the big one of the PP is an early gun with butt-mounted magazine release. Bit rusty in places, though. The PPK pix are better. Also shows a PPK/L, with light alloy frame.

T-Star
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,457
Likes: 45
Liked 891 Times in 502 Posts
Default

Nice looking PP in 22.
I'd guess it would go for something close to that but I don't think it's quite in the 'steal' catagory especially for an InterArms marked gun. JMHO

Should have 2 magazines with it too. Plus the owners manual (I think the common version wasn't model specific and covered the PP, PPK and later included the PPK/s. Earlier ones were 3 language versions. InterArms imports might be just English language,,not sure.

My pre-InterArms PP 22 had a cleaning rod also in the box. For some reason it also had a small packet with 2 extra mag followers and also a slide stop spring. Most probably just extras bought and thrown in the box

Are the grips in the one pictured original Walther,,,the thumb rest looks out of place but maybe it was an change to satisfy GCA68 or at least get more points in the import system they imposed.

FWIW my PPK in 22 was proof/dated on the barrel hood. A '66 gun and was also pre InterArms.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:32 AM
n4zov's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: S.E. USA
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Buy the gun! I have owned a similar Interarms PPK/S .22 since the 1970's, and it is a high quality and totally reliable handgun. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Walthers currently being produced by S&W. The gun I own was packaged in an Interarms box like the one you show. Here is a previous thread with a photo:

Walther P-22 - or PPK
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-06-2009, 12:33 PM
sub-moa's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Florida, A Third Wo
Posts: 324
Likes: 17
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Nice looking PP in 22.
I'd guess it would go for something close to that but I don't think it's quite in the 'steal' catagory especially for an InterArms marked gun. JMHO

Should have 2 magazines with it too. Plus the owners manual (I think the common version wasn't model specific and covered the PP, PPK and later included the PPK/s. Earlier ones were 3 language versions. InterArms imports might be just English language,,not sure.

My pre-InterArms PP 22 had a cleaning rod also in the box. For some reason it also had a small packet with 2 extra mag followers and also a slide stop spring. Most probably just extras bought and thrown in the box

Are the grips in the one pictured original Walther,,,the thumb rest looks out of place but maybe it was an change to satisfy GCA68 or at least get more points in the import system they imposed.

FWIW my PPK in 22 was proof/dated on the barrel hood. A '66 gun and was also pre InterArms.
Don't know if you are speaking of 2 difference Walther .22s here, a PP and a '66 PPK (if so I'm seriously jealous ) or they are one in the same, but...

IIRC, for either to be "Pre-InterArms" they would have to have been produced prior to 1956 when Interarmco/Interarms took over from the original US Walther importer, Thalson Co. of San Francisco.

Lack of the usual Interarms slide logo, could mean a pre-GCA68 import, an early GCA68 import if the grips have an Interarms Banner at the bottom edge, early GCA68 with replacement grips or a privately imported individual pistol.

Re: "German" Walther PP series pricing, you are absolutely right, condition, spare original magazine, correct box, manual and paperwork/target can make all the difference in the world to a collector/accumulator. Earl's is certainly the most knowledgeable and reliable supplier of correct original accessories, but dropping over a hundred bucks on a correct replacement .22 magazine and almost that on a correct, used cardboard box requires some effort ...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,457
Likes: 45
Liked 891 Times in 502 Posts
Default

Yes both a PP and PPK in 22. I've had a couple of the Mod PP in 22, the last one was the best one,came with the box, papers, etc.

Pre InterArms...should have said not InterArms marked on the slide of the PPK.

The PP was originally purchased in W.Germany in the early 60's by the person I bought it from while he was in the Army stationed there.
It had no import/export marks at all.
The PPK I bought used in 1972 and carried it almost daily up till last year. Shot it alot,,broke the fireing pin once but found a replacement from a parts dealer. Still needed to be fitted but wasn't a difficult job. Had a small 'W Germany' stamp on the frame but no InterArms flag on the slide.

The .22's are all gone now. Sold the last of them,,the PPK in .22 earlier this year. Still have a 1937(?) PPK in 32 w/the holster and xtra mag. Nazi police marked.

I still have an extra original magazine,,maybe 2, for the 22LR PPK though. Had a dozen or so from a dealer that said he got them from the Nuremburg(sp) Police Dept in Germany where they had used some PPK .22's for training. Too bad the pistols couldn't be imported.

Had a nice Mod 8 & Model 9 and a fairly rare Model 7 too. But those are history also. Down to one wartime P38 and one P1. I can still operate the slides on those!

Last edited by 2152hq; 11-06-2009 at 01:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:16 PM
sub-moa's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South Florida, A Third Wo
Posts: 324
Likes: 17
Liked 81 Times in 50 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
The PPK I bought used in 1972 and carried it almost daily up till last year.

The .22's are all gone now. Sold the last of them,,the PPK in .22 earlier this year. Still have a 1937(?) PPK in 32 w/the holster and xtra mag. Nazi police marked.

Had a nice Mod 8 & Model 9 and a fairly rare Model 7 too. But those are history also. Down to one wartime P38 and one P1. I can still operate the slides on those!
Sorry to hear of your need to let those Walthers go 2152hq, but glad you are still working the others...

FWIW, to those interested in proof dates, the seller of that Walther PPK/s .22 (134041S) H? proof, I posted as a price example for papa earlier, was kind enough to respond to my question regarding what the second letter code is. It is an "I", making the Ulm proof date code HI, that puts it at 1978.

Hope it helps others looking to date their pistols ...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-06-2009, 04:08 PM
jag312's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Jose, (Peoples Republic of)California
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 62
Liked 660 Times in 303 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Are the grips in the one pictured original Walther,,,the thumb rest looks out of place but maybe it was an change to satisfy GCA68 or at least get more points in the import system they imposed.
I have a Walther PP in .22LR with the same left grip. I don't have it in front of me, but if I remember correctly, it was made in France. I don't know if the thumb rest grip is something unique to the .22LR versions or if they are after-market.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-06-2009, 07:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,007
Likes: 845
Liked 833 Times in 471 Posts
Default

the only walthers i have seen with the thumbrest grips from the factory were 22lrs, and then only from certain eras.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
22lr, 650, interarms, ppk, walther

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
The Lounge Thread, Walther info/value in General Topics; Any of you folks familiar with Walther's? My dealer has a NIB, mint Walther model PP German .22. It looks ...
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SOLD: Walther TPH Stainless .22LR & Walther PPK (Interarms) mckits GUNS - For Sale or Trade 0 01-11-2012 09:30 PM
Help with info on .32 hand ejector info buckfever1613 S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 9 06-16-2011 10:33 AM
Need help, BG or Walther? earl s Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 6 02-01-2011 10:58 AM
22a or a Walther P22?? Mark Cowan Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 5 05-25-2010 10:17 AM
WTB/WTT HK USP 9F for HK P30 V3 or Walther P22 Osmosis GUNS - For Sale or Trade 1 05-21-2009 10:23 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)