I own several old milsurps that use 'Mannlicher style' magazine systems. The sort of feed system where the entire packet of cartridges plugs into the rifle, and clip drops from the action after the rounds are fired.

I own an Italian Carcano, a couple Steyr M95's, and a French Berthier, all using the Mannlicher feed system.

I also have an M1 Garand rifle. To me it's basicaly a variation of the Mannlicher feed system. Differing only in using a double-column clip, and ejecting out the top when empty. Nothing but a fancy, complicated, semi-automatic Mannlicher rifle.

My retired gunsmith buddy says "NO!", "Sacrilidge!", "The M1 has a Garand feed system".

Really I see his point, and I'm sure patents were filed proving the M1 has a Garand feed system. But really? In the spirit of a Ruger or Winchester Bolt rifle having a 'Mauser feed/claw extractor system'.....is the M1 Garand rifle a 'Mannlicher Garand' or not?

Thanx, Stevie.

the clip doesn't drop out the bottom when empty so it can't be a mannlicher.

That would be like calling all revolvers "The Colt loading system." Just because it uses one element from a system (en-bloc clips) doesn't mean it is the same system. As your gunsmith friend said ... Sacrilege!

Gregg

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USMC 83-92, NG 97-08

Actually the en-bloc loading system was invented by Herr Mannlicher in the 1880's and I have read that some of his early versions discarded the empty clip out the top, much like a Garand. Mechanically there is really not much difference between the feed system of any en-bloc mannlicher rifle and the Garand, the primary difference being the double stack design of the Garand and the use of the recoil spring to tension it. Good design features tend to be re-used and adapted to newer products and certainly owe a debt to the original designers work.

Old things new again. Redesigns, new materials, but the older ideas stay put in one form or another in most designs. Mannlicher designed a short stroke gas piston semi auto rifle in the mid 1880's too,,said to be the first succesful production rifle of that design. But hardly anyone would give the his name credit in the multiples of designs that use the same system.

Some Commission '88s were modified to eject out of the top. Were they not Mannlichers?

commission 88 were designed by a military board or commission. not by an individual,that's why they were called commission guns.

Colt had to wait for the patents on the Rollin/White bored cylinder to expire before it could produce proper cartridge loaded revolvers. S&W had purchased the patents from an ex-Colt employee.

I suppose the Mannlicher/Garand feed system is a moot point. The patent long expired, and old Ferdinand all but forgotten in the march of weapons technology.

By any reasonable definition, they're Mannlichers, just as an '03 Springfield and an Arisaka are Mausers.