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  #1  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:06 PM
tomhenry tomhenry is online now
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Default Man loses left hand in shotgun accident.

Quote:
BOISE - An Idaho man severely injured his hand after the shotgun he was using blew up while hunting.
Idaho County Sheriff's officials say on Christmas Shawn Crea, 46, was bird hunting in Idaho County near Highway 7 and Bryant Road. When Crea fired the gun, officials say the shotgun exploded - severely injuring his left hand.

None of the Bellevue man's hunting companions were in the immediate vicinity, but his cries for help were heard by nearby hunters Andy Terhaar and Greg Adams who called 911 for assistance.

Terhaar transported Crea to the roadway to meet Syringa Hospital's ambulance, which transported him to St. Mary's hospital. Crea was then taken to Lewiston and then transferred to Spokane for further treatment.

Investigation into the cause of the explosion continues however, initial information indicates an improperly hand loaded shell may have been the cause.




From this thread...

Not so good Christmas for a handloader. - THR

....this was posted:

Quote:
I would like to get a message to this thread that it is indeed the Shawn Crea from Bellevue, ID and that he lost the left hand completely in this unfortunate accident. I am a co-worker of his and didn’t want to register just to let them know the answer to their question. We haven’t gotten any more news on the exacts yet, but I am sure once Shawn masters one handed typing he’ll post something for the group. After that he will begin learning how to shoot and enjoy the life he has without his left hand.

Shanyn Schenk
Project Staff Assistant
POWER Engineers, Inc.
Speculation as to what happened:

20 guage shell loaded ahead of 12 guage shell;
Barrel obstruction;
Double charged handload.

If anybody has any further info, I'd like to hear it.
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:42 PM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Is that a Remington M-11 or a Browning Auto-5? Wonder how old it is...But I bet a hot handload or a smaller gauge shell down the bbl. did it.

Maybe a muzzle obstruction.

T-Star
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2009, 11:12 PM
m1gunner m1gunner is offline
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Thats an A5. The bolt is still locked into the barel estension. The barrel extension is screwed onto the barrel, and is a very strong design in that gun.

That kind of failure is what I'd expect to see with the bore obstructed by a 20 ga shell, or possibly a 16 ga.
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  #4  
Old 12-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Krull Krull is offline
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To take a Browning apart like that,had to be a hell of a kaboom!

Not even sure just an overcharged shell would do that,a smaller gauge shell stuck in the barrel,yea.

One reason the only two gauges I have are 12 and .410
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  #5  
Old 12-31-2009, 01:50 AM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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Default My thoughts or speculation:

[QUOTE=tomhenry;1234948


Speculation as to what happened:

20 guage shell loaded ahead of 12 guage shell;
Barrel obstruction;
Double charged handload.

If anybody has any further info, I'd like to hear it.[/QUOTE]


Doubt the 20/12 gauge thing. While it certainly wouldn't be a smart thing to do by any means, there have been a number of tests lately that just "blew" the 20 gauge hull right out of the barrel. Never even setting off the 20 gauge. Remington 870 for one, along with a H&R single shot, plus a Benelli that ran 7 sequences of the test without damage.

Double charge? I don't think so. I think one would be hard pressed to purposely load a shell that would do this. Double charge wouldn't leave enough room for enough shot to be much more than a blooper. Double charges in a shotgun hull are almost impossible not to notice.

Barrel obstruction, yes, check the previously fired hull. Lots of today's two or three piece hulls have a habit of coming apart. Leaving either a base wad or a portion of the plastic tube itself stuck somewhere in the barrel. Would have had to have been a pretty good obstruction within inches in front of the loaded hull though. An air gap seems to be more dangerous than something up pretty tight to the front of the loaded hull. (As in the 20 gauge above.)

Or, was it a "detonation"? Rifles and pistols are prone, usually with large volume cases and light charges of slow burning powders, to such. Shot guns, there never has to my knowledge been any such blame laid out. But lots of these types of destructive incidences have reported that there was first a "pop", slight pause and then, "KABOOM"!

Now we all know, or most of us do, that the primer alone will move the wad and shot forward. What if it did so, but the powder didn't ignite like it should, instantly, things moved a few inches, spreading the powder thinly on the bottom of the hull/barrel and then the powder ignited, all of it, istantly. Sort of a "hang fire". (Or maybe even some "smolering" in the meantime, turning powder to gas?) No progressive burn, just all of it detonating instantly. Like some of those rifle or pistol blow ups?

I think it might just be possible. Especially in light of some of those reports of "Pop----BOOM"!
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  #6  
Old 12-31-2009, 02:07 AM
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Considering an Auto-5 is one heavy receiver, that was a heck of a load!

Now, what if he got some 16 gauge rounds into his package?

I've heard ome 16's will go all the way down to the forcing cone of a 12 gauge with some force- the chances that this happened might be better than the 20ga theory. I'd put money on the shell separation theory myself as stated above.

Another good reason not to use any hull left outside in the rain or exposed to moisture (especially if it has a paper base wad) or attempting to use hulls past their lifespan.

It also doesn't look as though it fired out of battery, does it? I thought about that as a possibility since I have seen a model 12 do this- after it was "home gunsmithed."
But, I don't think this is what happened here.

Look closely at the barrel pictured and tell me, does it look bulged just ahead of where it split? It does to me.
Evidence of an obstruction of some kind.

Poor feller.
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Last edited by Andy Griffith; 12-31-2009 at 02:12 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-31-2009, 02:52 AM
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For those of us that have had rifles and shotguns and pistols go "pop... boom", it is very unsettling. Though I am not sure I've ever noticed that the shot seemed to have more kick or anything (though you're usually tense as all hell when it goes off, for sure). I can't imagine anything short of a rather large and tight into the barrel obstruction would cause this. Otherwise it'd be more common, one would think.
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  #8  
Old 12-31-2009, 03:24 AM
Nicksterdemus Nicksterdemus is offline
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Dang, nice old A-5 that deserved better.
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  #9  
Old 12-31-2009, 11:54 AM
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The guy had a nice old hand that deserved better too.
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  #10  
Old 12-31-2009, 12:29 PM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegetaman View Post
For those of us that have had rifles and shotguns and pistols go "pop... boom", it is very unsettling. Though I am not sure I've ever noticed that the shot seemed to have more kick or anything (though you're usually tense as all hell when it goes off, for sure).
You are certainly right there! Very unsettling.

And if it didn't "detonate", you wouldn't notice any difference in recoil, etc.

Just read a blurb by "someone supposedly knowledgable" about such things, that it may not be that "the powder has spread out", but that the primer "piled it up" at the base of the bullet, before full ignition, being the cause of detonations.

"Flame fronts", "pressure waves", "reflections", some going one direction and meeting another going in the opposite direction, etc, etc.

I think we just might have a lot more to learn about exactly how such things can happen. (Or not happen). Very possibly a number of causes, and what keeps such from happening with some or most, "hang fires".

Last edited by jugchoke; 12-31-2009 at 12:31 PM.
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  #11  
Old 12-31-2009, 12:39 PM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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BTW, I believe that an air gap between any obstruction and the mouth end of the loaded shell is much more destructive than something "right up tight" to that shell or "load".

Ramrods in muzzle loaders have been going down range for centuries now, mostly without damage. But cut a 3 inch section out of that ramrod, and place it about mid barrel, and you are almost assured to get at least a bulge.
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  #12  
Old 12-31-2009, 12:45 PM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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Of topic, but, Hey, just noticed and I am tickled! I haven't been called a "junior" anything in say, something like 60 years now!
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  #13  
Old 12-31-2009, 02:36 PM
Nicksterdemus Nicksterdemus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddogge View Post
The guy had a nice old hand that deserved better too.
Yes, this unfortunate event will probably be labeled as human error/accident.

We should all strive to never tire in being vigilant when handling firearms, ammunition and employ experience combined w/common sense to safety for ourselves and others.
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  #14  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:17 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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Really hard to tell, but my first impression is that a shell in the magazine was set off and may have set the one being chambered off before the bolt was completely locked.
The area where the magazine tube was is completely burned and the barrel shroud is separated/sheard from the barrel tube itself and driven upwards splitting the receiver. No buldge or split in the barrel is evident as would be likely from an obstruction of anykind.
Could be a combination of factors, including overload when handloads are involved.
Looks like a Remington M11 but it makes no difference.

Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also. The last one I saw destruct in that manner, the shooter lost part of his left hand.
Just my guess.

Last edited by 2152hq; 12-31-2009 at 04:23 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:28 PM
Nicksterdemus Nicksterdemus is offline
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"Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also..."

Slam firing or normal racking?

"Looks like a Remington M11"

You could very well be correct.

Last edited by Nicksterdemus; 12-31-2009 at 04:44 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:56 PM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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[QUOTE=2152hq;1235942]Really hard to tell, but my first impression is that a shell in the magazine was set off and may have set the one being chambered off before the bolt was completely locked.
The area where the magazine tube was is completely burned and the barrel shroud is separated/sheard from the barrel tube itself and driven upwards splitting the receiver. No buldge or split in the barrel is evident as would be likely from an obstruction of anykind.
QUOTE]

Sorry but I totally disagree. Having worked with "burst tests", (of other kinds and on other products), for about 40 years, I can tell you that a round going off in the magazine didn't do this to the barrel or action here! Although I would like to see blown up, (sorry!), bigger, better and more pictures, I would say that the fracture initated at the back of the large surviving part of the barrel and ran from there backwards.

That barrel shows classic plastic flow from pressure inside it. Downwards as well as backwards. Whatever happened in the magazine came about from the barrel above.

Also, if the bolt "had not been locked", the barrel wouldn't have sustained such damage as took place here.

I would say that the guy is actually very lucky to not have been even more seriously injured.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:06 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksterdemus View Post
"Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also..."

Slam firing or normal racking?

"Looks like a Remington M11"

You could very well be correct.
Normal racking on the M37.

I've seen it 3 times. The last was a customer at a gunshop I worked at that had a clay target 'trap' that the customers could use. The shooter was using his own M37, his own factory ammo. Normal functioning, no cowboying it.
A round exploded as it came out of the mag tube on to the carrier,,the chamber was empty as the fired shell had been thrown clear(normal function).
It detonated another round in the mag tube and blew the tube and forearm off. He lost a couple of fingers and other permanent damage to his left hand & wrist.
The other two incidents were guns I saw after the fact but it was apparent what had happened. Just tough to figure sometimes what the primer slams against coming back to fire off that shell.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Nicksterdemus Nicksterdemus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Normal racking on the M37.

I've seen it 3 times...
Exceptions to the rule are bound to occur and w/over a million made I can see some odd things come to light.

Still, it makes you wonder what is the common denominator in this firing out of battery.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:27 PM
butchd butchd is offline
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I, too, think it a Mod 11. The "hump" is slightly different. I've seen 16 ga ammo fired in 12 guage guns only to barely get the lead a few feet down range. It's a good example of what could happen if a 12 is fired with a 20 ga shell in the bbl. Just like in the case of coach Leach, we need further details. I hope someone can let us know.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:36 PM
jugchoke jugchoke is offline
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It was a Mod 11. An old, light trap load, from 20/25 years back. The gun had been used the previous day and performed fine. First rooster, first shot of the next day, and this happens. No "20 gauge shell down the tube".

And it WAS NOT "out of battery"! Nothing went "off" in the magazine, (although the shells there were "flattened"), or on the carrier.

All per the actual shooter.

Either an accidental overload from way back in his younger days, or some sort of substantial obstruction, (not too close up or too far out from the shell in the chamber), from the previous days last shot.

There have been numerous "tests" of 20 gauge shells inserted in 12 gauge Rem. 870's, H & R single shots and Benellis, (7 in a row there), with no damage to the guns. Not saying to try such, or that in some cases, it wouldn't happen. (Most if not all the 20 gauge shells never went off, just were expelled out the muzzle, and generated lots of recoil.) But that 20 gauge would of course be "up tight" or at least very close to the end of the chambered 12 gauge. It would likely do much more damage if it was 6 inches or a foot farther down the bore, when the chambered round is fired.

Somewhere close to where this barrel was completely blown in two, with no damage farther forwards and then apparently split backwards from that point.

The shooter said it was apparently those pieces that got his hand and damaged it beyond saving.

Bad deal. I think I was very lucky, oh so many years ago, when I first started messing with loads, back about 1949. I did some very stupid things as a kid, but got away with such.
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  #21  
Old 01-06-2010, 10:57 AM
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"An old, light trap load, from 20/25 years back."

Hmm. I'll bet the shot charge was oxidized and clumped. That might do it...?
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