Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > The Lounge
Forum Register Expert Commentary Members List


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-30-2009, 09:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 3 Posts
Default Man loses left hand in shotgun accident.

Quote:
BOISE - An Idaho man severely injured his hand after the shotgun he was using blew up while hunting.
Idaho County Sheriff's officials say on Christmas Shawn Crea, 46, was bird hunting in Idaho County near Highway 7 and Bryant Road. When Crea fired the gun, officials say the shotgun exploded - severely injuring his left hand.

None of the Bellevue man's hunting companions were in the immediate vicinity, but his cries for help were heard by nearby hunters Andy Terhaar and Greg Adams who called 911 for assistance.

Terhaar transported Crea to the roadway to meet Syringa Hospital's ambulance, which transported him to St. Mary's hospital. Crea was then taken to Lewiston and then transferred to Spokane for further treatment.

Investigation into the cause of the explosion continues however, initial information indicates an improperly hand loaded shell may have been the cause.




From this thread...

Not so good Christmas for a handloader. - THR

....this was posted:

Quote:
I would like to get a message to this thread that it is indeed the Shawn Crea from Bellevue, ID and that he lost the left hand completely in this unfortunate accident. I am a co-worker of his and didnít want to register just to let them know the answer to their question. We havenít gotten any more news on the exacts yet, but I am sure once Shawn masters one handed typing heíll post something for the group. After that he will begin learning how to shoot and enjoy the life he has without his left hand.

Shanyn Schenk
Project Staff Assistant
POWER Engineers, Inc.
Speculation as to what happened:

20 guage shell loaded ahead of 12 guage shell;
Barrel obstruction;
Double charged handload.

If anybody has any further info, I'd like to hear it.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-30-2009, 09:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,453
Likes: 5,663
Liked 2,650 Times in 1,493 Posts
Default

Is that a Remington M-11 or a Browning Auto-5? Wonder how old it is...But I bet a hot handload or a smaller gauge shell down the bbl. did it.

Maybe a muzzle obstruction.

T-Star
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:12 PM
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: middle Ga.
Posts: 2,108
Likes: 19
Liked 131 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Thats an A5. The bolt is still locked into the barel estension. The barrel extension is screwed onto the barrel, and is a very strong design in that gun.

That kind of failure is what I'd expect to see with the bore obstructed by a 20 ga shell, or possibly a 16 ga.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:18 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: WV,AKA the outback of USA
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

To take a Browning apart like that,had to be a hell of a kaboom!

Not even sure just an overcharged shell would do that,a smaller gauge shell stuck in the barrel,yea.

One reason the only two gauges I have are 12 and .410
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-31-2009, 12:50 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default My thoughts or speculation:

[QUOTE=tomhenry;1234948


Speculation as to what happened:

20 guage shell loaded ahead of 12 guage shell;
Barrel obstruction;
Double charged handload.

If anybody has any further info, I'd like to hear it.[/QUOTE]


Doubt the 20/12 gauge thing. While it certainly wouldn't be a smart thing to do by any means, there have been a number of tests lately that just "blew" the 20 gauge hull right out of the barrel. Never even setting off the 20 gauge. Remington 870 for one, along with a H&R single shot, plus a Benelli that ran 7 sequences of the test without damage.

Double charge? I don't think so. I think one would be hard pressed to purposely load a shell that would do this. Double charge wouldn't leave enough room for enough shot to be much more than a blooper. Double charges in a shotgun hull are almost impossible not to notice.

Barrel obstruction, yes, check the previously fired hull. Lots of today's two or three piece hulls have a habit of coming apart. Leaving either a base wad or a portion of the plastic tube itself stuck somewhere in the barrel. Would have had to have been a pretty good obstruction within inches in front of the loaded hull though. An air gap seems to be more dangerous than something up pretty tight to the front of the loaded hull. (As in the 20 gauge above.)

Or, was it a "detonation"? Rifles and pistols are prone, usually with large volume cases and light charges of slow burning powders, to such. Shot guns, there never has to my knowledge been any such blame laid out. But lots of these types of destructive incidences have reported that there was first a "pop", slight pause and then, "KABOOM"!

Now we all know, or most of us do, that the primer alone will move the wad and shot forward. What if it did so, but the powder didn't ignite like it should, instantly, things moved a few inches, spreading the powder thinly on the bottom of the hull/barrel and then the powder ignited, all of it, istantly. Sort of a "hang fire". (Or maybe even some "smolering" in the meantime, turning powder to gas?) No progressive burn, just all of it detonating instantly. Like some of those rifle or pistol blow ups?

I think it might just be possible. Especially in light of some of those reports of "Pop----BOOM"!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-31-2009, 01:07 AM
Andy Griffith's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northeast Georgia
Posts: 4,849
Likes: 62
Liked 433 Times in 222 Posts
Default

Considering an Auto-5 is one heavy receiver, that was a heck of a load!

Now, what if he got some 16 gauge rounds into his package?

I've heard ome 16's will go all the way down to the forcing cone of a 12 gauge with some force- the chances that this happened might be better than the 20ga theory. I'd put money on the shell separation theory myself as stated above.

Another good reason not to use any hull left outside in the rain or exposed to moisture (especially if it has a paper base wad) or attempting to use hulls past their lifespan.

It also doesn't look as though it fired out of battery, does it? I thought about that as a possibility since I have seen a model 12 do this- after it was "home gunsmithed."
But, I don't think this is what happened here.

Look closely at the barrel pictured and tell me, does it look bulged just ahead of where it split? It does to me.
Evidence of an obstruction of some kind.

Poor feller.
__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Last edited by Andy Griffith; 12-31-2009 at 01:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-31-2009, 01:52 AM
Vegetaman's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Illinois (not Chicago)
Posts: 947
Likes: 2,213
Liked 222 Times in 132 Posts
Default

For those of us that have had rifles and shotguns and pistols go "pop... boom", it is very unsettling. Though I am not sure I've ever noticed that the shot seemed to have more kick or anything (though you're usually tense as all hell when it goes off, for sure). I can't imagine anything short of a rather large and tight into the barrel obstruction would cause this. Otherwise it'd be more common, one would think.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-31-2009, 02:24 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SINTRULL RKINSAW
Posts: 729
Likes: 35
Liked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Default

Dang, nice old A-5 that deserved better.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-31-2009, 10:54 AM
reddogge's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finksburg, MD
Posts: 721
Likes: 66
Liked 272 Times in 103 Posts
Default

The guy had a nice old hand that deserved better too.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-31-2009, 11:29 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegetaman View Post
For those of us that have had rifles and shotguns and pistols go "pop... boom", it is very unsettling. Though I am not sure I've ever noticed that the shot seemed to have more kick or anything (though you're usually tense as all hell when it goes off, for sure).
You are certainly right there! Very unsettling.

And if it didn't "detonate", you wouldn't notice any difference in recoil, etc.

Just read a blurb by "someone supposedly knowledgable" about such things, that it may not be that "the powder has spread out", but that the primer "piled it up" at the base of the bullet, before full ignition, being the cause of detonations.

"Flame fronts", "pressure waves", "reflections", some going one direction and meeting another going in the opposite direction, etc, etc.

I think we just might have a lot more to learn about exactly how such things can happen. (Or not happen). Very possibly a number of causes, and what keeps such from happening with some or most, "hang fires".

Last edited by jugchoke; 12-31-2009 at 11:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-31-2009, 11:39 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

BTW, I believe that an air gap between any obstruction and the mouth end of the loaded shell is much more destructive than something "right up tight" to that shell or "load".

Ramrods in muzzle loaders have been going down range for centuries now, mostly without damage. But cut a 3 inch section out of that ramrod, and place it about mid barrel, and you are almost assured to get at least a bulge.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-31-2009, 11:45 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Of topic, but, Hey, just noticed and I am tickled! I haven't been called a "junior" anything in say, something like 60 years now!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-31-2009, 01:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SINTRULL RKINSAW
Posts: 729
Likes: 35
Liked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddogge View Post
The guy had a nice old hand that deserved better too.
Yes, this unfortunate event will probably be labeled as human error/accident.

We should all strive to never tire in being vigilant when handling firearms, ammunition and employ experience combined w/common sense to safety for ourselves and others.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-31-2009, 03:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,371
Likes: 43
Liked 821 Times in 455 Posts
Default

Really hard to tell, but my first impression is that a shell in the magazine was set off and may have set the one being chambered off before the bolt was completely locked.
The area where the magazine tube was is completely burned and the barrel shroud is separated/sheard from the barrel tube itself and driven upwards splitting the receiver. No buldge or split in the barrel is evident as would be likely from an obstruction of anykind.
Could be a combination of factors, including overload when handloads are involved.
Looks like a Remington M11 but it makes no difference.

Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also. The last one I saw destruct in that manner, the shooter lost part of his left hand.
Just my guess.

Last edited by 2152hq; 12-31-2009 at 03:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-31-2009, 03:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SINTRULL RKINSAW
Posts: 729
Likes: 35
Liked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Default

"Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also..."

Slam firing or normal racking?

"Looks like a Remington M11"

You could very well be correct.

Last edited by Nicksterdemus; 12-31-2009 at 03:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-31-2009, 03:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=2152hq;1235942]Really hard to tell, but my first impression is that a shell in the magazine was set off and may have set the one being chambered off before the bolt was completely locked.
The area where the magazine tube was is completely burned and the barrel shroud is separated/sheard from the barrel tube itself and driven upwards splitting the receiver. No buldge or split in the barrel is evident as would be likely from an obstruction of anykind.
QUOTE]

Sorry but I totally disagree. Having worked with "burst tests", (of other kinds and on other products), for about 40 years, I can tell you that a round going off in the magazine didn't do this to the barrel or action here! Although I would like to see blown up, (sorry!), bigger, better and more pictures, I would say that the fracture initated at the back of the large surviving part of the barrel and ran from there backwards.

That barrel shows classic plastic flow from pressure inside it. Downwards as well as backwards. Whatever happened in the magazine came about from the barrel above.

Also, if the bolt "had not been locked", the barrel wouldn't have sustained such damage as took place here.

I would say that the guy is actually very lucky to not have been even more seriously injured.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,371
Likes: 43
Liked 821 Times in 455 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicksterdemus View Post
"Ithaca M37 have been known detonate a shell cycling out of the magazine tube also..."

Slam firing or normal racking?

"Looks like a Remington M11"

You could very well be correct.
Normal racking on the M37.

I've seen it 3 times. The last was a customer at a gunshop I worked at that had a clay target 'trap' that the customers could use. The shooter was using his own M37, his own factory ammo. Normal functioning, no cowboying it.
A round exploded as it came out of the mag tube on to the carrier,,the chamber was empty as the fired shell had been thrown clear(normal function).
It detonated another round in the mag tube and blew the tube and forearm off. He lost a couple of fingers and other permanent damage to his left hand & wrist.
The other two incidents were guns I saw after the fact but it was apparent what had happened. Just tough to figure sometimes what the primer slams against coming back to fire off that shell.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-31-2009, 04:42 PM
s&wchad's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Great Lakes State
Posts: 10,581
Likes: 1,047
Liked 2,047 Times in 719 Posts
Default

That’s not a Browning, that’s a Remington Model 11 or a Sportsman.

Not mine.

__________________
"I also cook."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-01-2010, 12:00 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SINTRULL RKINSAW
Posts: 729
Likes: 35
Liked 37 Times in 19 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Normal racking on the M37.

I've seen it 3 times...
Exceptions to the rule are bound to occur and w/over a million made I can see some odd things come to light.

Still, it makes you wonder what is the common denominator in this firing out of battery.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-01-2010, 12:27 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South East Arkansas
Posts: 416
Likes: 62
Liked 87 Times in 30 Posts
Default

I, too, think it a Mod 11. The "hump" is slightly different. I've seen 16 ga ammo fired in 12 guage guns only to barely get the lead a few feet down range. It's a good example of what could happen if a 12 is fired with a 20 ga shell in the bbl. Just like in the case of coach Leach, we need further details. I hope someone can let us know.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

It was a Mod 11. An old, light trap load, from 20/25 years back. The gun had been used the previous day and performed fine. First rooster, first shot of the next day, and this happens. No "20 gauge shell down the tube".

And it WAS NOT "out of battery"! Nothing went "off" in the magazine, (although the shells there were "flattened"), or on the carrier.

All per the actual shooter.

Either an accidental overload from way back in his younger days, or some sort of substantial obstruction, (not too close up or too far out from the shell in the chamber), from the previous days last shot.

There have been numerous "tests" of 20 gauge shells inserted in 12 gauge Rem. 870's, H & R single shots and Benellis, (7 in a row there), with no damage to the guns. Not saying to try such, or that in some cases, it wouldn't happen. (Most if not all the 20 gauge shells never went off, just were expelled out the muzzle, and generated lots of recoil.) But that 20 gauge would of course be "up tight" or at least very close to the end of the chambered 12 gauge. It would likely do much more damage if it was 6 inches or a foot farther down the bore, when the chambered round is fired.

Somewhere close to where this barrel was completely blown in two, with no damage farther forwards and then apparently split backwards from that point.

The shooter said it was apparently those pieces that got his hand and damaged it beyond saving.

Bad deal. I think I was very lucky, oh so many years ago, when I first started messing with loads, back about 1949. I did some very stupid things as a kid, but got away with such.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:57 AM
Jeepnut's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

"An old, light trap load, from 20/25 years back."

Hmm. I'll bet the shot charge was oxidized and clumped. That might do it...?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
benelli, browning, ithaca, model 37, primer, remington, shroud

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
The Lounge Thread, Man loses left hand in shotgun accident. in General Topics; BOISE - An Idaho man severely injured his hand after the shotgun he was using blew up while hunting. Idaho ...
LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/115874-man-loses-left-hand-shotgun-accident.html
Posted By For Type Date
Shotgunworld.com • View topic - Hunter Injured/ Shotgun Blows Up This thread Refback 04-23-2012 05:03 AM
Can a gun blow up in your hand and cause someone to lose a finger or eye? - Topic This thread Refback 03-08-2012 05:47 PM

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTS/T: 451x (RH) and 1911 (LH) Holsters in W. NC WNC Seabee Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 10 03-21-2012 10:00 AM
Left Hand OOB bhayden Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 7 01-12-2012 11:46 PM
Left Hand carry Cristiano S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 6 01-22-2010 05:05 PM
Right hand, left eye dpmac83 The Lounge 14 01-20-2010 08:49 AM
Left eye, right hand shooting. conn ak The Lounge 12 03-17-2009 04:08 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:29 AM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2013
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)