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  #51  
Old 04-15-2010, 01:15 AM
curioushooter curioushooter is offline
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Having never had to deal with any animal personally like a bear, I will relay a story about my wife's uncle Earl:

He lived in the hills in back country Eastern Tennessee. He was uneducated and a drunk. He also possessed unassailable comfidence, probably because his body had adapted to being in a state of near-constant inebriation.

There were several Black bears that lived in the area that ate garbage and ruined cookouts from time to time. People shot at them, usually with shotguns or whatever they could find, more as a deterrent or annoyance to drive them away. None were ever killed. These were usually 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot.

In a state of drunkenness, Early had taken to playing with two bear cubs out of eyeshot of any "kinfolk." This continued for several minutes. Supposedly he was giving them bits of food and punctuating his play with swigs of whiskey from the heavy glass bottle we was drinking out of.

From the woods came a mother bear that assumed some sort of threatening position and walked up to Earl. The noise she made alerted other people who all came out with their shotguns and whatnot, but none had rifles. Nobody could take a shot because Earl could shake hands with this bear he was so close. She assumed some sort of position where she projected her muzzle forward and snarled at him. When this happened he stood up and casually guzzled the last few ounces of whiskey in the bottle. As he licked his lips he reached back and whacked the bear's muzzle as hard as he could with that (now) empty whiskey bottle. The bottle shattered and injured the she bear. Almost instantly she retreated from the scene with her cubs in hot pursuit, followed by volley of shotgun fire.

So for Blacks it would seem the best defense would be a heavy glass whiskey bottle. Since Grizzlies and Browns are a bit too tall for this approach, a nice purpose-built revolver like the Ruger Alaskan in 454 of with reasonable accuracy might be helpful for bear work. But I might keep the bottle just in case.
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  #52  
Old 04-15-2010, 01:49 AM
NE450No2 NE450No2 is offline
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If I was going to use a 10mm for bear protection I would take a look at Buffalo Bore's loads with either the 220gr hard cast lead bullet, or their 200 FMJ FP.

I prefer a 4" 44 Mag S&W in bear country, but will admit there were times I carried a 1911, in griz country, in 45 ACP, with 230gr Ball, and later on the Buffalo Bore 230gr +P FP.
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  #53  
Old 04-15-2010, 07:35 PM
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Neat thread that got resurrected. I must have missed it the first time around. I bought a number of guns from WWG up in Anchorage over the internet. They sold me two neat old Alaskan bear guns, a cut down Remington Model 11 from long, long ago (still has the safety in the trigger guard) and a cut down and reblued Winchester Model 12 that left the factory in 1919. They also sold me a neat old 1975 Colt SP-1 that I never should have traded. The latter is interesting. I'm told that the white guys have big bores, but the natives tend to just carry around .223s and have been using ARs for years against bears. One large polar bear, or polar grizzly hybrid or some such, was featured on Monster Quest. The native that killed it used his personal full auto M16 and riddled it. That's one way to accomplish it.

Anyway, if someone is moving to Alaska permanently, Class III weapons are perfectly legal. While I'd have WWG customize a Guide Gun with their mods for better extraction and so on, they also offer cut down "hawg's leg" versions that aren't much bulkier than a large pistol. Short Barreled Rifles and shotguns are available for the tax stamp, though I'm told that out in the boonies people don't generally bother with the tax stamp... Shrug. If a long gun is too troublesome to carry as is, simply modify one into a "whippet gun".

Something else no one mentioned that one could play with is a conversion barrel for the G20 that turns it into a 9x25mm Dillon.
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  #54  
Old 04-15-2010, 09:38 PM
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Default I dunno

I like my 10mm Glock...but for protection against big bears I dunno...rather have it than nothing.



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  #55  
Old 04-16-2010, 05:56 PM
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I am not sure ANY pistol (even the much vaunted .500) is ideal for large brown bears. I prefer more, like the .375 H&H or above. If the Glock 20 it is, though, I would load it with heavy loads from Norma, or Buffalo Bore has a hard cast and a FMJ that I would go to. The Glock is probably a good choice for AK (the weather resistance) and I have found it as comfortable and reliable as anything else to shoot with the 10mm, which ,besides the .45 ACP, is the only auto round I care for. The 10mm/.45/.44 arena are good to buy some time to get to the house/truck and get a nice .416 Rigby into action. The problem is the shooter. Yes there are those individuals who can make a perfect shot all the time, no matter what. Then there are the people who can make the perfect shot and drop them when everything goes right. With bears things rarely go right (they are like us in that respect) and you can't plan for what may do the job under certain circumstances, you have to plan for what will clean up the mess when everything goes to total ****. You are never prepared for any situation that any animal will throw at you unless you lug a .577NE around all the time.
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  #56  
Old 04-16-2010, 10:26 PM
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The people I know regard 44 Mag as the minimum. If she can't handle it, the shotgun sounds like a good choice.
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  #57  
Old 05-18-2010, 04:35 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

I carry the Glock 20. A few years ago, in Colorado, I had a benign encounter with a large Black bear. Not a small black bear. A large one. Although I had my Glock 20 with 15 round magazine I felt, very very unarmed. Also, I had in my hands a single shot 30-06 (Ruger). I still felt very unarmed. But I did have my Glock 20 none the less. If you carry it, that is what you are stuck with, if you do then I recommend Gold Dot bullets. Designed to Penetrate and hold it's mass. Hand loaded to higher velocities. You can't really buy Bear loads over the counter in 10mm. But mind the pressure.
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  #58  
Old 05-19-2010, 08:24 AM
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I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.
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  #59  
Old 05-19-2010, 08:35 AM
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I have seen several documentary shows where teams work with or around polar bears, and many times the people are carrying short barreled pump shotguns with folding stocks, slung on their backs. That would seem to be less cumbersome than carrying a Marlin guide gun on a sling, and having a light Glock 10m/m for backup would seem like a good choice.
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  #60  
Old 05-19-2010, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
I guess that tells us how smart "most" people really are. I would like to throw that spare tire out of the back of my Jeep since I've never used it yet, and replace it with more fried chicken, trail mix and diet Vernors, but I've talked to people that have known people that have had flats before...The fact that you might only need that 8 pound rifle once is enough for me.
Do you wear a kevlar vest everywhere you go? How about a helmet and 5pt harness in your car? The chances are good that you *might* need one of these things even more than that 8 pound rifle. Life is all about taking calculated risks.

As far as a G20 for bears, I admit to having no personal experience. It does seem funny to me that most folks who disparage it claim (perhaps rightly so) no handgun has enough power and all rely on a lucky CNS shot. If that's the case, a 10mm with FMJ or hardcast will probably penetrate as well as a .44 magnum.

I do feel that a 10mm on the hip is better than a .45-70 in camp, and even going unarmed and simply being aware is better than cowering inside the RV afraid of bears. Perhaps pepper spray is a better choice for your friends.

I freely admit to looking longingly at a G20 as a possible outdoors replacement for my 329pd. I like the 329, but could probably shoot the G20 better, and it is a bit flatter and better for urban use. I camp a lot, but not in grizzly country, so the biggest animal I have to worry about is black bears, cougars.

In conclusion, I'd much rather face a coastal brown bear with a 10mm (or even a 9mm) in my hand than no gun. Would I rather have a 500? Yes. Of course, I would rather have a rifle. Scratch that, I would rather be in an APC with twin 50's on top. Wait, no, I would rather be 3,000 feet overhead in a warthog. You get the idea.
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  #61  
Old 05-20-2010, 03:38 PM
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A charging Bear would be stopped with confidence by nothing less than a mack truck probably. A casual bear not paying attention to you, could easily be dispatched with a hand cannon. The idea is, your bear will be charging you. For that purpose you would not want less than A 12GA. With Slugs in 3" MAG. But when that Shotgun gets jammed, or when the bear gets on top, you transition to that hand CANNON. You point it at the bear the best you can and you resume until your slide locks back. Compliments of Glock 20. With Gold Dot bullets. 180grain With your FPS at 1200 or more.. That is what I'd feel better about. Confidence is important for performance. But if you think you are going to stand there and get good placement with a charging bear, you are failing to take into account your adrenaline. You will be shaking like a polaroid picture. And your buddy will take a picture snap shot of you getting mounted by the bear and the rest of whoever see's those snaps will feel sorry for you.

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  #62  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:14 PM
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This guy lives just outside of Soldotna,Alaska

Have I got a story for you guys!


King salmon season is over, and since I had a day off before silvers start, I thought I would go for a walk! This occurred at 11:16 am this morning (Sunday), just 2/10 of a mile from my house, ON OUR ROAD while walking
my dogs (trying to get in shape for hunting season, ironically!) For the record, this is in a residential area - not back in the woods, no bow hunting, no stealth occurring...

I heard a twig snap, and looked back...full on charge - a huge brownie, ears back, head low and motorin' full speed! Came with zero warning; no Woof, no popping of the teeth, no standing up, nothing like what you think or see on TV! It charged from less than 20 yards and was on me in About one-second! Totally surreal - I just started shooting in the general direction, and praise God that my second shot (or was it my third?) rolled him at 5 feet and he skidded to a stop 10 feet BEYOND where I was shooting from. I actually sidestepped him and fell over backwards on the last shot, and his momentum carried him to a stop past where I fired my first shot!

It was a prehistoric old boar - no teeth, no fat-weighed between 900-1000 lbs and took five men to DRAG it onto a tilt-bed trailer! Big bear - its paw measured out at about a 9 1/2 footer!

Never-ever-thought "it" would happen to me! It's always some other smuck, right? Well, no bull- I am still high on adrenaline, with my gut in a Knot. Feels like I did 10000 crunches without stopping! Almost puked for an hour after, had the burps and couldn't even stand up as the troopers conducted their investigation! Totally wiped me out - can't even put that feeling into words, by far the most emotion I have ever felt at once!

No doubt that God was with me, as I brought my Ruger .454 Casull (and some "hot" 350 grain solids) just for the heck of it, and managed to Draw and snap shoot (pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total luck shot!

All I can say is Praise God for my safety and for choosing to leave the wife and kids at home on this walk! Got a charter tomorrow, so gonna TRY to get some sleep now!

Talk to ya soon, -Greg
here are the pics from this story--have seen the story with accompanying pics on another forum.





A Glock 10mm with the stock barrel--no way--change the barrel to use heavy cast bullets--MAYBE. I think this topic has been covered more times on more forums than 9mm vs. .45acp. People need to realize these big bears can take a considerable amount of lead unless you hit them directly in the brain. That isn't always easy if they are charging you.

I think wayyyy too many city slickers take what these animals can do to you for granted and rely wayyyy too much on calibers that were designed to put down a 170 to 200lb human with soft skin and light bone, instead of a 800 to 1200lb thick hided, heavy muscle & boned animal. I think the reason many of them want to rely on these smaller guns is that is what they have at the moment and are either unwilling to pony up for a proper caliber or have themselves or someone else has convinced them that they could never handle a large magnum revolver.

The truth is all but the most feeble can learn to handle one--some guns may need a change in grips-and all of them need to be practiced with, just like any other gun. None of them are particularly a joy to shoot--but that isn't the point. You carry a large magnum gun to hopefully save your hide. If a person is going to carry a smaller gun then they should also be carrying bear pepper spray-it might have a better effect.

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  #63  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:08 PM
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I'd rather have a revolver. More reliable, even than a Glock.

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  #64  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:50 PM
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Default .454 Cas

To be honest. A small woman can not handle the kick of .454 Cas it's just too powerful a cartridge. All I can say, is no way, would this lady be able to hold on. And or fire it twice. She would test fire it once and never shoot it again.
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  #65  
Old 05-25-2010, 06:57 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

180 grain Gold Dot bullets hand loaded with Blue Dot powder to it's almost max load but not compressed, does not kick much harder than a regular .40S&W, almost that is, I'd give it something like 10.5 grains of Blue Dot or less, this should give the velocity of the round a little more than 1200FPS on average probably like 1220, again, double check the book, some max load data shows 10.5 grains of Blue Dot for Max load for 180grain JHP, SO, I'd say that the controllability and firepower and stopping power would be a perfect match for a woman or small person, for bear defense, but don't use compact version of the glock 10mm, use the full size version that is G20, it's just as powerful as a .357 MAG, with almost three times the firepower, and a larger grain bullet that penetrates, plus you have extra mags, if you need to reload, get behind tree, climb tree, and reload, it's way faster than reloading a wheel gun, also I examined the case after fireing this load and the case was showing no signs of over pressure or damage or cracking, I'd say this is a great load for penetration and stopping power of a large animal. My Girl Friend; Fired this load rappiddly with 100% hits on man size target, so I'm confident this would be a great, girls gun. But the catch is you have to hand load this load.

Last edited by somecomeget; 05-26-2010 at 09:32 PM. Reason: FPS
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  #66  
Old 05-26-2010, 09:30 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

Did some research on Gold Dot, turns out that bullet is the first to actually retain it's mass at 95% on average, some studies show 100% mass retention in 10% ballistic gellatin, the best retention of mass of any bullet since 1965, this is the first of it's kind, where the jacket and the core work as one, as they are bonded together, the bond between the jacket and the core is stronger than the bond lead has to itself, so it is going to penetrate and not loose it's jacket or have missiles, meaning that it is more accurate by far, hits harder, mushrooms faster and penetrates deeper for a hollow point, that should do the trick with heavy hide, muscle, bone, and the round is very reliable feed wise, for the 10mm, and turns out, if you have a 200 grain bullet traveling at 1000 fps, that was the minimum given by a particular bear hunter expert, the 10mm will push a 200 grain slug 1,100 fps, if you use blue dot. The more research I do the more I like 10mm.
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  #67  
Old 05-29-2010, 11:59 AM
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I had a custome license plate border on an Acura that displayed my 10mm preference. Some stranger in a parking lot once asked me if I was "....hunting elephants with that?".
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Old 05-29-2010, 05:06 PM
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Default West Yellowstone, MT

I'm amused whenever I read these "handguns for bear" threads, same as the elk threads on some of the hunting forums.

Anyway...If any of you ever get near West Yellowstone Montana absolutely visit the Grizzly Interpritive Center. You will be within twelve feet of the big coastal grizzly's and Kodiaks.

Take a look at those guys up close..then rethink any ideas of using a pistol on them.

FN in MT
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  #69  
Old 05-31-2010, 03:47 PM
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Default do not use hollow points

I would suggest against ANY hollow points in 10mm (for bear) and the Gold Dot is no execption.

100% weight retention does not equate to the same penetration as a non expanding bullet. A hollow point is designed to expand and expose a larger frontal area. That larger exposed area causes it to slow down (shed energy) faster, creating the vauted temporal cavity. The faster it slows down the shallower the penetration. Hollow points actually have less penetration when driven faster, until you reach a point where you exceed the energy necessary to fully expand the bullet, then penetration begins to creep back up as long as the bullet holds together.

I would suggest 200 gr FMJ loaded to reach 1200 fps. That is the original factory load for the 10 mm (though now days it will be hard to find). It should give very good penetration and shouldn't exceed the power level the Glock was built for.

As to whether 10 mm is enough - I can't give anything but theory. I've never had an encounter with a bear, let alone had to shoot one. I would guess that it would be better than a sharp stick or a rock. I would, however, bet that it would be better than a gun she refuses to practice with or refuses to carry.
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:23 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

penetration is not stopping power, you can shoot an elk or bear with a .300 WIN MAG multiple times and that animal will run another mile, the penetration is good, but only if vitals are hit, the GOLD DOT increases the temporary wound cavity, and increases the permanent would channel and that is what actually stops an animal as apposed to penetration alone, that is why hydra shok is so successful, but penetration is better with GOLD DOT, making it a better bear load, if there was one, the point is optimize the load for the calibre even if the caliber is not optimum the load can be,
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Old 05-31-2010, 07:36 PM
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Some animals qualify for solids. If shooting a grizzly with a handgun doesn't meet that criteria, I don't know what would.
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:23 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

No stopping power data I've seen concurs with your statement that some stopping power situations require solids. I've only seen people who claim to have experienced it, but they probably didn't document scientifically what really caused the animal to stop, All the scientifically documented data I've seen suggests that stopping power is an amalgamation of factors, and not suggesting that it requires solids, if by solids you mean, a bullet with no expansion, in fact, it's not even legal in some states to hunt with.... most kinds of what I'd say are solids, because of the poor performance, the question is.. have you read this thread? politely asking of course.. because I lay out the skinny, and it's pretty good, *pats self on back* even though you don't appreciate the intense research invested... I bet, you will benefit from my suggestions listed preceeding this comment... Or, tell us what you mean by solids, and what you measured to be true regarding their performance or what others have measured, i'm not talking about, ... "I once could saw, that a grizzle bar, was taken down by a RN .38 Special to the roof of ees mouth" come on...

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Old 05-31-2010, 11:27 PM
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Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: .458 45 CAL :: 45 Cal .458 500 gr DGS®

That is a 500 gr solid bullet. DGS stands for Dangerous Game Solid. They are used when using a rifle to hunt large, dangerous game. If a person is taking on a bear with a pistol, he needs the equivalent to that bullet in his pistol, a non-expanding solid for the deepest penetration possible.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:36 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

I admire your find, but the question posed was for 10mm, the requirements of the essay, are not satisfied with your answer, did you read the thread? Did you read the question? The user asked a question and set some limits, you breached the parameters of the question.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:41 PM
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No, I didn't. The principle is the same whether it's the 10mm or a .458 Winchester. When you are shooting game which is extremely tough and for which the gun is minimally powerful (such as a 10mm on a bear) you need penetration, not expansion.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:00 PM
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Default 10mm bear defense

The parameters are; it's a girl who does not like revolvers, and the question is; Glock20, can it work (10mm) on a grizz, not is it the best, but, is it possible, now, the bullet you posted would for sure work if placed well, but I can see that bullet is almost like armor piercing, which is usually not legal to hunt with that i know of, and the bullet you posted is also very good for penetration but it's the wrong caliber and firearm, the idea of the question is to explore the possibility of the 10mm hand loaded; as commercial loads are not available to best fit for grizz, and the user requested no other calibers be discussed, that does not mean I don't like that bullet you posted it's just not what the user asked, no offense. So to say that my suggestion of a 10mm loaded with 10.5 grains of blue dot and stuffed with a gold dot 180 grain bonded, seems to be the optimum load, based on the data i've seen, when one looks at available components that are loaded for 10mm that is, and to be honest, I'd never want to shoot a grizz with anything, because that grizz is 1,000 lbs of trouble I don't want to piss off, but if the bear ate your friend, or was feeding on your dog, then you might dump a mag or two into his nasal or occular cavity area, with what you have, be it a 10mm, then so be it, and if be it, be the gold dot 180 grainers which can penetrate the 10.5 inches necessary to destroy the brain, provided the round does not deflect,
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:20 PM
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Actually you can buy 230 gr WFN Gas Check bullets and loaded ammunition from Double Tap. 1120fps/641 fps Glock 20.
This is a very hard cast Keith Type Bullet. As you know Keith Types have very good penetration. I expect unless it hits bone it would come out about .401” as it went in.

I have utterly no interest in facing any Grizzly, but if I were in harms way with only my 10MM it would be with loaded with solids and Oh, would not be a Glock.
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Last edited by oldRoger; 06-01-2010 at 10:29 PM. Reason: changed bullet size, 44 special on my mind
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  #78  
Old 06-01-2010, 08:33 PM
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Exactly. A hard-cast Keith type swc or a FMJ flat point would be my recommendation.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:16 PM
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To be honest. A small woman can not handle the kick of .454 Cas it's just too powerful a cartridge. All I can say, is no way, would this lady be able to hold on. And or fire it twice. She would test fire it once and never shoot it again.
Greetings, Friends,

My wife and I have backpacked up in Alaska several times, and each time we go, both of us are carrying heavily loaded revolvers, "just in case". We always hope and pray that we will not need to use them, but that does not stop us from carrying them, and practicing long and hard before our trips!! My wife carries my 4" M657 S&W, loaded with very heavy, hard-cast WFN LBT bullets, and I carry my 7 1/2" Freedom Arms Field Grade .454 Casull, also very heavily loaded. The first time we flew out of McCarthy, Alaska, to backpack the Wrangel-St. Elias area, using map and compass, our Bush Pilot wanted to see our guns and ammo before he flew us out there. After he saw what we planned to carry, he showed us what HE carries, which is an FA .454, with a shorter barrel!! He uses almost the exact same load that I carry, BUT, he also has a Wild West upgraded Marlin .45-70 in his small plane, as his main gun. The Casull is his "just in case" gun, as are our pistols! Personally, I would NEVER to into the Bush with a Glock 10mm as my only armament. Just too many problems with doing something like that. And as for small woman not being able to handle the .454, I must take honest issue with that statement. My wife, who is 5'6" tall, and weighs 125 lbs, can shoot my FA Casull very competently and accurately, with the heavy loads. NO, she doesn't LIKE doing that, but she can surely do it, if needs be, and is confident with her abilities to protect both of us with that gun, and also the M657 she chooses to carry. So, I believe it's a matter of training, and also desire. Any woman who truly wants to save her own bacon, and the bacon of others, should things go South on her in an instant, should not be concerned about whether she LIKES the gun she is shooting, only that she is able to shoot it properly!! BTW, my Casull is the single most accurate firearm I've ever owned, and if I do my part, from the bench, it will put all five of it's rounds into the same hole at 25 yards. Personally, though it is a far more powerful revolver, I think it recoils less than my S&W 8 3/8" Nickeled M29!! Better grip design, at least for me. For what it's worth..... I'm only blessed to have married a wonderful woman (coming up on 30 years ago!) who is more concerned with safety, than in comfort, when it comes to shooting hand guns at large and dangerous bears!!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:56 PM
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Well, as far as the kick, can you speak for your wife? Maybe you should have her post her oppinnion on that... if she can confirm she don't mind pulling that .454 casull trigger, under stress, i'd like her to say so... for what it's worth, I have shook some hands of various ladies and they all have different strengths, some girls you almost wonder if their bones bent just on a hand shake, other girls have a nice shake, the question is, do all girls possess the gumption to pull a .454 casull trigger with out hearing protection and not be traumatized,... or at least shell shocked some, no, I'd be rockin it out with my 10mm, you know, if you practice you can put 5 controlled shots on a coffee can with ease, I'd say skill is part of it... I'd practice two controlled shots followed by three rapid shots, followed by rockin out like mad. Depending on scenario, and done while moving toward cover simultaneously, putting spare mag in weak hand and preparing reload, like an experience operator as opposed to a surprised noob. What do ya'll think.

Last edited by somecomeget; 06-03-2010 at 05:46 PM.
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  #81  
Old 06-02-2010, 09:36 PM
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It won't be nearly as traumatizing as being mauled by a bear.
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Old 06-03-2010, 04:15 PM
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The G20, is the only 10mm with a reputation well enough to be suggested unequivocally for several reasons, 1. Functional Reliability, 2. Ease of Use, 3. Stopping Power, 4. Fire Power, 5. Versatility, 6. Availability, 7. Cost. The bullets that function well in an autoloader are generally smooth rounded nosed bullets, Gold Dot satisfies all the contraints for this model. Weight in grains, Shape, Structural Integrity, Feed Reliability, Availability, Performance. I encourage all to check out Gold Dot's Web Site. So, I would recommend for someone using the G20, to hand load the Gold Dot bullet to it's max or just under max velocity, I personnaly prefer the 180grain JHP bonded, with 10.5 grains of BLUE DOT, and having the C.O.L. being almost perfect for reliability in the 10mm or G20, have probably 2 or more extra 15 round magazines, that giving one a 16 round capacity, with the ability to reload smooth, and that would at least put one in the game. This is a backup, to your 12GA minimum long gun. Any arguments?

Last edited by somecomeget; 06-03-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Yes
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  #83  
Old 06-03-2010, 06:03 PM
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No argument, just total disagreement. A Gold Dot is not a dangerous game bullet. You could not pay me to try to use one on a bear.
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Old 06-03-2010, 06:13 PM
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Did you research anything? It's okay, if you didn't, but it's funny you are so hard headed about it, when so many people agree that the G20 is a very real and feasible option for bear defense, besides not all bears weight 1200 pounds, only world record bears, most bears depending on the breed weight, anywhere from 250lbs on up to 900lbs, where ususally people encounter bears around 400pounds being a big one. I have seen probably 4 bears in the wild, three looked so small I didn't understand why people worried, but the fourth was a big-n, I had a 10mm on my hip and a 30-06 in my hands, don't get me wrong, I didn't feel adequately equipped, but no .454 casull would have made me feel better either, the truth is, you will never feel good about it, no matter what you carry, the question is, can you survive with a 10mm as a backup, and the answer is yes, so don't be such a scardy cat, friend. Or stay home.

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  #85  
Old 06-03-2010, 09:52 PM
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I'm wondering if you read the Chuck Hawks article you referenced.

Quote:
The potential problem is the 10mm Auto cartridge itself. Powerful for a true auto pistol cartridge, it is not particularly impressive when compared to the popular magnum revolver cartridges.
Quote:
Hornady offers a 10mm factory load using their 200 grain jacketed hollow point XTP bullet (MV 1050 fps, ME 490 ft. lbs.). Hornady recommends this bullet for "medium game," which would presumably include wolf, cougar, jaguar and black bear but not grizzly, brown and polar bear.
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Bullet selection for any of these should tend toward the heavy bullets for the caliber, to maximize sectional density and thus penetration. Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) or hard cast bullets are the usual choice. Federal, for example, advertises their CastCore (hard cast lead) bullets as, "excellent for back-country self-protection."
Note the key word--penetration.
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  #86  
Old 06-03-2010, 10:36 PM
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I prize my G20, I am completely confident in it, I have shot so many rounds of ammunition through it that I know that firearms capabilities, I have owned about three of them, I sometimes carry two of them, I have shot Federal, Hornady, Cor-Bon, Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, Hi Shok, I have been elk hunting many o times with it, and I guarantee you, that firearm, will rock when it comes time, and it will go bang when you most sincerely need it to, I had it when I encountered those bears, which have never even so much as bothered me with a sniff, realistically, but I had it. I carry it, I love it, I trust it, and Mr. Bear will meet it, if Mr. Bear wants some. I do however possess a little more skill than the average person, so I'd probably operate a little smarter, making it work. Besides, I'm a hunter, I generally try to see them first anyway. So, for someone like me, it's adequate; for someone who is not outdoors oriented, what would work? Maybe Nothing. It's a skill not a tool that makes you win. Besides I carry a rifle when I hunt. I carry my G20 for Lions, mostly, because lions are more dangerous than bears where I'm from and things that go roar in the night whatever animal gets nasty. I have night sights. Does that revolver have night sights? I didn't think so. The way I'd defend myself from a bear is with intelligence, not just a big stick. The 10mm is a backup, self defense tool, that is there even when your rifle may not be, and the Magnum revolver you are talking about is so heavy, who'd carry it, 24-7? I did go look at a .460 not too long ago, it was $1100 dollars for a revolver, and it was so heavy, when I tried to aim it, I could only hold it on target for a very short time before the weight alone toasted my upper body strength. Then on top of that, it is SOO... loud and kicks so hard that no-one enjoys practicing with it, it's horrible. Now for a woman, it's almost just not even an option.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:07 PM
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Chuck Hawks is a full of himself idiot that comes up every now and then. No credentials, no experience, no credibility. The tool even gives himself awards because nobody else will. Read his article on S&W for stunning stupidity and outright misinformation.

On topic, I call anyone who carries a handgun for Alaskan bears lunch, which is what they are destined to be. If carrying one makes you feel good, that's fine. Just be aware that the chances of it actually working are slim to none.

Bob
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  #88  
Old 06-04-2010, 03:10 PM
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PENETRATION
I dont want anything expanding and slowing itself down on dangerous game.
If and when time comes that a person HAS to defend themselves in a life and death situation, the HEAVY pistols are light, monster recoil isnt really noticed, and usually they dont even hear it go off.
I work all over the country, and when I am going out in the woods I carry nothing less than a .44 magnum with at a minimum of 240 gr hunting loads.
I feel much better with a keith hardcast.
If I know there is a chance of an encounter I have a 12 ga with slugs, brenneke black magics.
My wife shoots my .44 for fun and is looking at an alaskan as her next purchase.
Bug guns, big HARD projectiles, and most importantly... avoiding having to use them.


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Old 06-04-2010, 03:43 PM
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I forgot to mention, I knew a man who was mauled by a bear and I asked him about it, he shot the bear with a .300 win mag, three times, and the bear still put his *** literally this man was in the bears mouth at about the hip, the man I'm speaking of, clearly lived to tell about it. Bear defense is actions going in and going out, it's not this dream that people have where the biggest bear that ever lived, charges without warning and from behind, remember how rare that really is, that being said, a person who is aware of his surroundings can effectively defend himself with a G20, if he needs to climb a tree, or dodge behind his truck in the process, so be it. As I see it, bear defense is a strategy, tactic and skill. You can have a .300 win mag and still get eaten. Once that bear gets on top those long guns are hard to point. Even when that gat is 6 or 7 inches. It's hard.
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  #90  
Old 06-04-2010, 04:52 PM
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Snubby bear gats...


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  #91  
Old 06-04-2010, 06:35 PM
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A man and woman reported that they were hiking Friday evening when the bear emerged from trailside brush and charged the woman, park spokeswoman Kris Fister said in a statement.

The man fired nine rounds from his .45 caliber, semiautomatic pistol at the animal, which then stopped and walked into the brush.

The two reported the shooting to rangers, who restricted access to the Igloo Canyon area for fear that the bear was wounded and dangerous.

On Saturday, rangers found the dead bear about 100 feet from the shooting site.

Park officials are determining the justification for the shooting. It's legal to carry firearms in that area of the park but illegal to discharge them.

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  #92  
Old 06-04-2010, 08:14 PM
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And I have seen a cat attack a rottweiler and run it off.
Doesnt mean its a good idea.


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Old 06-04-2010, 08:30 PM
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And I have seen a cat attack a rottweiler and run it off.
Doesnt mean its a good idea.


Jim
LOL, or that it's going to turn out the same way every time.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:37 PM
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After the Bear is through with me and they are gathering my remains, I certainly would not want to be buried with a Glock. I would not even be able to haunt this forum.

I will go down with my S&W 1006 blazing, lead Keith Bullets and all, thank you very much!
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:48 PM
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I tested the idea of the revolver on my girl friend, I found out some profound down falls I would never have forseen with just hypothesis,.. So, here is the story.. a little insight anyway.. I convinced her to carry one for a day, well, to try it. I took her to the hills and I realized quickly that I had to show her EVERYTHING, specific to revolver, she has safety down.. but the techniques specific to revolver or reloading, of pulling a DA trigger (as well as cocking for accuracy if there is time) oh and the safe decocking technique they teach in the NRA, where you place the thumb in the gap, and of the draw and speed loaders, but primarily all else fails type of stuff; this is second nature to me, but to her it was complicated.. she's like you have to do what with your left hand, and what with your right, and what button do I push to get the "thingy out", and by the end of the day she was able to perform the basics, but she almost couldn't pull the trigger back, because the grip was too big, the tip of her finger barely reached, so consequentially she was not strong enough to pull the double action more than about twice, on the third pull she couldn't get the trigger to pull back in DA mode!! I have to admit, it was just not a good fit, also she couldn't draw it fast enough for a charging bear, I tested her by simulating a charging bear, I said pretend I'm a bear, I had her not point at me.. but had her point off another direction with it unloaded as well, I rushed her from a few yards away... just to see if she could draw it, she couldn't get it out of it's holster!! And it's a snapless, kydex holster with very little frictional resistance, but here is what she said at the end of the day.. "can I carry my glock?, I hate that thing it weights me down too much." She took it off and handed it to me, so I gave it back saying no, just try it out, she pushes it back and would not wear it so I said okay. Now guys; What would you prefer, a woman carrying what she wants, or a woman who leaves it in the car, camp, truck etc.. We are talking about women here. They don't seem to like revolvers and now I understand why. This last point kills me though, to my horror, I noticed that she didn't understand that the cylinder had to lock into place.. I did an ops check, pre hike, to my amazement, found out she didn't close the cylinder correctly, she was carrying a non functional firearm because the cylinder was not clicked into place... It was ridiculous what all issues manifested. Keep in mind she never shot a revolver before and is not a gun person. That is why I like the glock, it's almost idiot proof. Almost. At least she was way more proficient with it. Guys don't forget that not all people are gun nuts. I am amazed at how much she proclaimed time and again how much she hated that revolver and it was only a .357MAG, S&W model 520. Not like a .454 casull or, .460 or .500. There are so many things that can go wrong in a bear charge, what happened above was under no stress.

Last edited by somecomeget; 06-07-2010 at 06:20 PM.
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  #96  
Old 07-01-2010, 03:03 AM
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Gotta love these "what if bear attack" threads. Bottom line, carry whatever firearm and ammunition you choose. If it works, you live another day -- if it doesn't...well, we'll be reading about you in the news.

If you're sold on Gold Dot JHPs in a Glock 20 as a bear defense sidearm -- have at it. I'll be carrying a 12 ga. with slugs and a sidearm with the heaviest SOLID bullets available for the particular caliber. I love my 10mm pistols, but I expect I'll be carrying a 44 magnum with 320gr. WFN Hardcast loads as a sidearm. If I did happen to take a 10mm, it would be loaded with the 230gr WFN Hardcast, not some JHP intended for two-legged predators...
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somecomeget View Post
The G20, is the only 10mm with a reputation well enough to be suggested unequivocally for several reasons, 1. Functional Reliability, 2. Ease of Use, 3. Stopping Power, 4. Fire Power, 5. Versatility, 6. Availability, 7. Cost.
Nope. Some of your points are interesting, but the Blocks don't fit my hand. The S&W 10mm autos do, don't kick much, and work. So the Block can NOT be recommended unequivocally, and perhaps one of the S&W's can.

YMMV.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:43 PM
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Nope. Some of your points are interesting, but the Blocks don't fit my hand. The S&W 10mm autos do, don't kick much, and work. So the Block can NOT be recommended unequivocally, and perhaps one of the S&W's can.

YMMV.
You can quote me on the quote unquote.. but you may want to clarify because unequivocal endoresement is mine, not yours. Lol, unless you feel like giving my oppinion to me.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:45 PM
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10MM = ~same muzzle energy as a .22 Hornet....Have fun!
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  #100  
Old 07-07-2010, 06:13 PM
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That's a good example of why kinetic energy is not a good measure of killing or stopping power.
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