Handgun stopping power an impression made along time ago in a far and distant place.

An infantry company CO (Mustang previous combat experience from Korea) conferring with the AO team leader is first to notice a hostile close in. He draws his 1911A1 places a center hit. The rice propelled fellow goes down. The CO and AO resume their conversation. The lowly L/Cpl (AO/FO team member) notices the rice propelled fellow is back up. The L/Cpl snaps of two shots from his M14 the rice propelled fellow hits the deck.

The nineteen year old L/Cpl later reflects back to his familiarization firing of the 1911A1 at Parris Island. Remembering the PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) telling the then recruit that a solid hit is a stopper.

The nineteen year old L/Cpl now a regular member of the AO/FO team is told he will be issued a pistol card and 1911A1 for field use and to turn in his M14 to the battery armor. He declines and continues to carry the M14. At a later date he acquires a 1911A1 from someone who no longer needs it.

At twenty years old he returns home. Right or wrong he’s opinionated from his personal experiences as to what works and what doesn’t. There are no guarantees with center hits but hits beats missing.

Sir.
That old saying, "Pistols are for shooting and rifles are for fighting", has some merit. First hand experience is a real convincer isn't it.
Bill@Yuma

Long ago and far away I also carried a M1911A1 in combat. Pistol training in the Army was pretty minimal, mostly requiring a minimum number of hits on a silhouette target to qualify. Not much emphasis on the handgun, really.

I had a friend who took 3 rounds from an AK-47, all in the chest. He was back for duty in under a month. I had another friend who took one round in the upper leg, breaking the femur and opening the femoral artery. He died in less than 2 minutes.

We used the pistol when clearing bunkers and tunnels. We loaded 8 rounds of tracer-ball ammo, allowing the shooter to "walk" his shots into the target. The .45 ACP was effective in every case, but never knocking a man down and never resulting in immediate death.

Then I served 24 years as a cop. Training, back in the day, was "shoot, look, shoot, look, shoot, look". Later on, the training evolved considerably and we were taught to shoot until the target stopped moving, period. For multiple targets we were taught to double-tap one, then double-tap the next, and repeat if necessary.

Stories about "stopping power" and "knockdown power" are vastly exaggerated. I've seen people shot with .38 special, .357 magnum, .22 LR, .25 ACP, .45 ACP, 7.62X39, 7.62X51 NATO, 5.56mm NATO, and 12-gauge 00 buckshot. Some laid down and died. Some keep coming at you. Some turn around and walk away. I've never seen anyone "knocked down".

To stop a man requires either serious disruption of the central nervous system, or a sudden drop in blood pressure (typically caused by massive tissue destruction and arterial bleeding). Taking out the brain stem will stop all motor response. Reducing blood pressure to a point of unconciousness can take a while, depending upon the tissue damage and the individual.

Welcome home, fellow vet.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

I think we can safely say that a hit in the high chest area, that is to say centered between the armpits with a .50 BMG is more than likely a fight stopper. Short of that keep shooting.
As the Sheriff in Florida said when asked why they shot a guy 68 times; “We ran out of Ammunition”.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Lobo, that ought to be a sticky. That was a great post and I'm sure it opened a few eyes here. Nothing beats "real world" experience.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

The best "stopping power" I've personally seen: 105mm from an AC-130.

Being that I can't carry a 105mm around with me, I don't count on "one shot stops".

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- The Federalist #46 -

a picture of a mafia type who was hit five times with 12 ga. slugs and lived. Shot placement counts!.

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Big bang, much smash'em.

I would imagine some would have to define "knockdown power", as I've seen a couple people get knocked square on their arce after taking a round and that to me anyway, is my defination of knockdown power. As to the 7.62X39 and 7.62X51 they knocked a lot of guys flat on their back and most didn't get back up any time soon. What few shooting accidents I'm aware of where a 270, 308 or 30 magnum was involved - the victim either went right down or made a quick step as if pushed and then went down. Ma Duce will take a man off his feet and do a half-as*ed job of gut and quartering him before his remains hit the dirt. There's a couple YouTube video's of our Warriors over in the sand box getting sniped by both the 7.62X39 and 7.62X51 and our man goes down hard but gets back up and returns fire thanks to his ballistic vest, which is light years advanced from the old flak vest. If you're locked up with a "warrior" and can't get a CNS hit, then you better just keep putting rounds in him and keep moving unless you can take a leg out, as he's got to bleed out before he'll give up the fight - hold your ground and he just might take you with him before he bleeds out.

OldRoger - I think that was a DEA agent being questioned by Janet Reno as to why he shot the man 8 times with his 1911. That particular story covered 2 pages back in the late 70's if my memory is correct. Reno never forgot that and forced the agent to retire on another matter in the mid90's when she was the attorney general.

As they say "a handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle".

Hoping of course you didn't stray too far away from it!

I figure if they keep coming after 1 to the head, you got bigger problems to worry about.

I say keep shooting until your problem stops being a problem.

On that note while I haven't shot any humans,thank the Gods,I have had some wild go rounds hunting varmints out here and I'll tell a few.

First was a woodchuck that I center punched with a .303 Brit-little SOB ran a good twenty feet dragging his guts and got back in his hole far enough I couldn't reach him,but his guts were still outside the hole!

Second was another woodchuck,digging holes under the barn and just raising hell,he needed stopped before he made a sink hole or some such.
Was looking under the barn one day and there he is,long story short I gave him a .230gr FMJ from a .45 at point blank range,in the head,he dropped and I went to fetch a shovel to get him out from under there.....
Come back and he's gone! look around and the little bugger pops up two feet in front of me with a goodly chunk of his head missing,put me on my butt as I fell over in shock! THAT was a hell of a day.
He got away but I never saw him again.

Because of this and a few other things I NEVER trust a gun 100% and carry ether a large knife or some kind of a short sword,things can get close and scratchy at times.

I once saw a head shot from a .38 round nose. It hit a little in front of the ear and about the height of the top of the ear. The skull prevented penetration and the skin prevented a ricochet. The bullet followed the skull right over the top of the head and lodged just under the skin on the opposite side of the head. I do not know at what distance or at what angle the shot was fired but having been in an urban setting the distance could not have been very great.

That and several others have caused me to have little faith in the .38 or anything smaller.

Additional information and thoughts on this subject:

My primary MOS was a cannon-cocker. By OJT (On the Job Training) a 2nd MOS of artillery scout observer as a team member to provide the application of artillery support for the “Grunts”. We weren’t shooters but that’s not to say we didn’t become shooters on occasions.

I had the upmost respect and appreciation for what the “Grunts” endured day to day. We learned to adjust our equipment load as to the necessary and the unnecessary on those long walks in the sun & rain.

The incident with the failure to stop is sort of like a thousand that-a-boys wiped out by one aw-shucks. You’re preconceived notions meet reality. I would think in today’s jargon that’s a “Reality Check”. I realize that the incident is not a large depository of experience to reach a valid conclusion but it was enough for me. There are no guarantees.

Fixed it for ya.

... and who's to say it would have been much different with 357M or 45?

Shot placement is MUCH more important than caliber IMHO. Of course, the larger the caliber, the more you might "get away with". Hell, you can take down an opponent with a pellet gun if your shot placement is good enough (say, in the eye)

“The second comment is a quote from Judd that ran in the Orlando Sentinel newspaper after the SWAT team fired 110 shots at Freeland in a wooded area, hitting him 68 times."

"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Judd said.”
My reference was to a local event last Sept. the Sheriff is Grady Judd of Polk County, the guy shot had killed a Deputy and his dog and wounded another. Family of Angilo Freeland holds news conference - Bay News 9

Allegedly, the coroner said the murderer Freeland died of natural causes, said he; “Naturally when you are shot 68 times you will die.”

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

The facts are...

Solid hits with whatever you have is the rule, but don't assume because you scored a "solid hit" that the threat is neutralized until it is verified as neutralized.

Hit it with all you have, and keep hitting it until it's no longer a threat, you can get away, or hold on until the cavalry arrives.
Don't hold your breath for the cavalry though...many scalps lost due to that tactic. And I'm part Native American!

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Lost it all in a boat accident

It's interesting to read this thread and reflect on the cocky cavalry trooper and his 100 yard pistol prowess in the thread on Kipling the other day...

Re the woodchuck who took off after a headshot with a .45 ACP at pointblank range: Wow! Now that would give one a start! (Maybe there is merit in the old wooden stake through the heart approach, ya know?)

How about this one? Plainclosed officer seated in an unmarked car, bandit appears at the driver's window with gun in hand. Officer fires a 2" 38 with semijacketed flat point through the closed window. Fires again hitting the bandit center chest. Officer receives one shot to his gun hand ending the shooting. Bandit takes off, perimeter is set up, bandit is found being helped into a veh. about 45 min. later over a mile away. I was assigned to ride in the ambulance with bandit to the hospital and confiscate bandit's clothes for evidence. Bandit was wearing a thin cotton jacket and a shirt. The jacket and the bandit had one bullet hole, entrance, no exit. The jacket had a black spot caused by the first bullet that broke the car window.

The bandit had a punctured lung, recovered and stood trial. The officer recovered and returned to duty.

Would you fix that one for me?

I once shot a cottentail rabbit with a 1911 .45ACP and it was a pretty good body hit. Rabbit ran off and got into a culvert!

I had to fish it out with a piece of barb wire and pull its head off to kill it.

The longer part is this-I had the pistol out since I had seen this little poofer for a few days and wanted to pop him,it was a Glock 21 in .45,when I saw him he was looking at me through a hole in the barn floor no way it was any more then two feet between us.

I shot him in the head and he went literally all four legs in the air,that's when I went for the shovel...and when I came back all the rest happened.

It sure as hell gave me a start,like I said I was kind of squatting and looking under the barn to see where in the nine hells the SOB went...and he popped out covered in blood not more then a foot or two away from me!

He went running one way and I landed on my butt and went sliding the other!

I'm sure if you witnessed this you'd laugh a lung out

Yeah, you are right about that lung! That's funny!

Anyways, bet that l'il SOB had one helluva headache!

And to think rburg has been shootin' raccoons with a 22! (Say, where is Dick anyway? Hope no complications to his recent surgery...)

The late Jeff Cooper described three of his pistol incidents to me. In one case,he had a Colt SAA .45 Colt and shot a Jap on a log. Meant to fire twice, but said that the Jap was hit so hard that he flipped off the log and fell dead on receiving the first.

I don't remember the second, and haven't time to find his letter just now. But his .45 auto sufficed.

In the third case, a commie guerilla in some Asian country had a go at Cooper with a Sten gun. Cooper hit him with a .45 auto and he went down.

But weird things happen.

I once saw a badger hit between the shoulders from above with a service load from a .45 auto. He was pinned against a wall in the mess hall by a wooden sign held by two men. The badger was in a corner.

On taking the bullet, he began trying to claw his way through that board and get at us. The blood was quite thick. It actually reminded me of catsup.I suppose that it was arterial. The animal took about two minutes to die. It was a sobering experience.

The badger couldn't be shot in the head as the medics needed to analyze the brain for rabies.


T-Star

Elk hunting for 26 years has taught me that a well placed shot under ideal conditions with a 30.06 doesn't always equate to an instant one shot drop.

IMHO, (and I'm no expert) a "center mass" shot is a high probability of HIT shot, not a high probability of KILL - especially in these days of concealable, available body armor.

As mike 1100 said - even with HIGH power weapons, well placed lung/heart/vital shots are not one-shot-drop. The only shots guaranteed to drop the victim instantly every time are those that sever the spinal column - an inarguably low percentage shot from an accuracy standpoint.

For many years I had heard, what we all have heard, is that the Colt SAA and the New Service were sent to to Phillipines to stop the crazed Moros that the .38 Colt would not.

However I have since read that the .45s and .30-40 Krags would not stop a really fired up Moro. The only reliable hand-held stopper was the 12 gauge.

I was told by Marines and Army dudes [supposedly more experienced than me] that a hit in the THUMB by the .45 auto would knock a man down. It would probably knock me down because it would hurt like hell!! But a real man just might keep on coming.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

When reading stories and books by Col. Cooper, it frequently seemed that somehow, the .45 was much more effective when the Col. was the one shooting it. I finally concluded that the sheer force of his personality had a propellant effect on the round he fired and caused it to become more effective than when used by us lesser mortals.

Watch out 10ring! Someone may be putting a fatwa out on you right now!

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NRA Life Member

Here's a guy found still alive 24 hours after being shot 12 times, I assume with a pistol, and having his throat slashed -- by a young lady, no less: El Paso Inc But I understand he's dead now.

I'll tell you another eye opener I had with woodchucks:

When I moved here in the early 90's we had one come up on our porch and eat the damn grass mat! middle of bloody summer and the little poofer decides to much on an old,hard,probably treated grass mat!

So I determine that something must be done,thing is catching him in the yard wasn't a plan as he was fast,up on the porch wasn't good ether since bullet holes in it would make Grandma a bit irritated

So I see him up there one day munching away and I think "well maybe I can make him go elsewhere for dinner" so I load up a .22 revolver we had then with snake shot~yes snake shot my thought was he'd get hit and go flying and not come back.

So I ease the door open and pop him right between the shoulder blades at about two feet BANG! he goes flying off and I think I'll get him later when he's not so sore......

Next day I'm in the yard and walk around behind the house to get some things done and you know what I find? a dead woodchuck! damn snake shot had somehow got in far enough to get his lungs and,I assume,his heart!
True he went a good way,and I think he went in his hole and came out the next morn and croaked then but it bloody well killed him! egads! the least effective round claims a score now and then!

Like I said I've had some wild go rounds out here with hunting vermin and the like.

Center mass hits are fine but how do you get the bad guy to hold still for your shot? Of all the "incidents" I had in my 30 year career I can only think of a few where the bad guy wasn't moving in one or more directions while I tracked him or her. In a real, in the dark, bad guy rushing you or moving while he fires at you you will be lucky to score any hit let alone the fabled head shot. Few if any people practice shooting a moving human sized target. Most shootings are within arms distance and a snap shot may be all you get.

Three D robots are available for more realistic defensive training. It's a real eye opener when trying to hit center mass on a moving, bobbing target. If allowed at your range and you can do it safely, try hitting some balloons on a windy day. It can be done but real life scenarios seldom resemble shooting a fixed daylight target on a square range.