Did the Germans issue the PPK in 380ACP as well as .32ACP or just in the 32ACP?

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Aaron Terry

Yes on Nazi 380's.
Much scarcer, much value.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I've only seen one and it had police proofs rather than Army. Don't know if that is the norm or not.

Just remember....if it says 'Made in West Germany' on the left side....it ain't wartime manufacture!

Had a gunstore clerk get his pantys in a bunch when I pointed out how worthless his 'nazi gun' sales pitch was because West Germany didn't exist until WWII was over.

Did you laugh out loud at him? Right to his face? I probably would have. I've done just that for similar reasons more than a few times. It IS funy!

Russ

You gotta love the American education system. We have the best colleges and universities in the world, but the kids I see coming out of our high schools now really disappoint me. Give them a globe and ask them to point to Germany and 7/10 of them probably can't do it. But ask them to name the finalists of the last American Idol competition and they'll do it without thinking.

By the way.. Were all the other German small arms (Luger, Walther P38, etc) chambered in 9x19?

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Aaron Terry

In WW II the Luger and P-38 were chamber in 9mm P; also the Polish Radom and Browning HP. The PP and PPK, Mauser HSc and Sauer H 38 (I think), as well as the Czech CZ 27, Browning 1922, Unique and some that escape me, were chambered in 32 ACP. They even had made for them a few French 35A pistols chambered in 7.65 Long.

The Luger was originaly chambered in 7.65mm Parabellum, then 9mm like in 1906. Both pistols could be had in either 9mm or 7.65mm.

The Germans(police and military) used dozens of various makes and models of handguns, mostly in .32ACP(7.65mm..Not Parabellum cartridge) and 9mm Parabellum. They were known to use about anything from ..25 ACP(6.35mm) to .45 ACP (11.25mm I think thats the metric designation?)

The average WWII P08 Luger, or P38 was 9x19mm.

I've heard that the Germans used some sort of +P 9mm in their MP40s, and that it could blow up Lugers and P-38s if you tried firing it out of them. Is this true? I seem to remember stories of GIs trying to fire captured 9mm ammo through a Luger and blowing it up in this fashion.

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Aaron Terry

To my knowledge (gained from some friends who were WAAAAYYY too interested/knowledgeable in Nazi stuff), the PPK was only issued to SS.

PPK = Polizei Pistole Kriminal

The Finns used some pretty hot 9mm in their sub-guns. I guess it would knock the toggle knob off a Luger with extensive use.

I don't know about the German wartime ammo.

Wasn't that sort of the deal with the M9 Beretta, 9mm +P+ for the HK MP5 subguns busting the slides?

I have a 1936 Nazi Luger. Standard pressure 9mm ammunition isn't reliable in it: it functions much more reliably using hotter loads. My Luger also likes ammunition to be at max. cartridge length.

I don't shoot it a lot, but many years ago I found some bullets that are similar in profile to some Nazi ammunition I have. I loaded some ammunition for my Luger that is well into the +P, or +P+ range.

My bet is that the Nazi's spec'd their sidearms to run on the same ammunition as their MP-40's, and that ammunition was loaded pretty hot.

I chrono'd some Nazi 9mm ammunition many, years ago. I don't remember the numbers, but it is loaded very HOT!

Some of the firearms (and just about everything else) made late in WWII by the Nazi's suffered from serious QC problems, due to lack of quality steel, and shortcuts in production. (That's why I bought a pre-war Luger, BTW).

I would not be surprised that some wartime P-38's failed, firing the +P (or +P+) ammunition the Nazis were making.

The Nazi's discontinued production pf the P-08 Luger in 1942, due to the much larger amount of raw materials, and labor required to make them.

The P-38 was the official sidearm of the German Army, in any event. It was adopted specifically due to the high cost, and antiquated design of the P-08 Luger.

I've heard of WW II German 9mm marked on the boxes, "Nur fur P-08." That infers that some of their other 9mm's wouldn't handle those loads, or the overall length made those loads the right length for operating the Luger.

I gather that the MP-38/40 was sometimes loaded with light bullets to high velocity. These might well have malfunctioned in some pistols.

As for the claim earlier that the PPK was only provided to the SS, I think that's ridiculous.


T-Star

If I could tag-on to this thread, I have a question for those that know more than me about these pistols. I have a PP, which if I recall the serial number chart I once saw, was made in late '43? (2846xx P)What is curious to me, is that there are no markings on it except the eagle over "N" proof...no military or police acceptance marks. Is this unusual? I would assume at that point, all production was earmarked for the military.

This is a great source of information on Axis military weapons:

Axis History Forum • Index page

The ppk was NEVER ISSUED UNDER THE NAZIS IN .380. They didnt even exist back then. 22lr, .25acp, .32acp...that was it. Issued in .32 acp or 7.65 as they call it

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Marcas Registradas

Cool Hand Hodge The ppk was NEVER ISSUED UNDER THE NAZIS IN .380. They didnt even exist back then. 22lr, .25acp, .32acp...that was it. Issued in .32 acp or 7.65 as they call it[/QUOTE]
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Sorry, but I have a Eagle/N Proofed .380 (9MM k) PPK. It has the bottom slide release instead of the pushbotton. They are rare, but they are out there. Art

Mustang51...Yours has correct commercial era proof only and would have been destined for the commercial/civilian sale market at that time. Though Walther had military contracts for great numbers of their PP & PPK pistols,,not all,,at that point in time, were made for the German Military.

Later in the war (not much later than your pistol was mfg), quality fell to a point that slide markings were left off altogether, a simple 'AC' code was used to denote Walther mfg, finish quality was rough, and nearly every pistol off the line was used to fill the military contracts as production was down from earlier years for a number of reasons.

Your PP shows the mid-war production type finish that starts to show a surface left with machine marks in it but nothing like the later guns.
Nice looking Walther BTW!!

Mauser still made some of their commercial 98 sporter rifles as late as 1944 and are eagle/N proofed only. Though there were always some 'special' guns made for the politically connected,,regular commercial sale pieces continued to be made late into the war as long as the different companys could meet their military contract demands. I sold not to long ago a very plain M98 sporter in 8mm commercial proofed in 6-44. Not a 'Mauser Werk' made sporter but one made by an independent gunsmith but it does show that a commercial market still existed in some places late in the war.

Thanks very much for your answer 2152hq. This may be a ridiculous question, but I have a follow-up: Who do you suppose would have been a market for a commercial pistol in 1943, with the majority of the general population being ineligible for ownership? Would every gun purchased by the police have had a police acceptance mark?

Not every citizen was banned from handgun ownership. Having the right connections within the political climate of the time & being of prominance favorable to the Reich would allow you to own a pistol with the blessings of the local Police.

In 1938, the party in power in Germany passed a Firearms Act with regard to handgun ownership. Long guns did not require any permit to purchase or possess in most cases.

In the 1938 Act:
A permit to purchase, possess and carry a handgun was necessary.
Permit applicants had to show a 'need' for said handgun.
Minimum age was 18 or perhaps 20, I don't recall.
**Government workers, Nazi Party Members, or if you had a German Federal Hunting Permit exempted you from any handgun permit regulations.
(The Hunting Permit was difficult to obtain and required the ownership of hunting property IIRC...so usually a person of wealth & usually political connections in that era.)***
Anyone of the Jewish religion was strictly forbidden to own any firearm.

The firearms permits were good for 3 years.
All firearms dealers were required to keep dedicated records of sales and dispositions. All the records were turned over to the local Police authority on a scheduled basis for review.

So civilians were allowed to own firearms and handguns in particular in most cases as long as the restrictions were met by the applicant.
Strict gov't rules and regs regarding sale, possession ect (of handguns) were the law of the land for the average citizen while an elite layer of Gov't politicians, supporters and those in a position of wealth and power were exempt.

Sounds familiar.


Nazi era police markings are usually an Eagle/L,,Eagle/C,or ,Eagle/F stamped on the side of the pistol,,generally the frame.
Usually commerial proofs on the gun.
Weimar Era Police markings are much more involved and confusing and may still have been on some other types of pistols used in the 20's and early 30's. Mostly Lugers, 1913 JP Sauer's, ect.
The recycling of guns used in earlier duties to newer assignments results in multiple markings being present in some cases.
Not much ever got throw away.

Just speculation but: Lets say you were a Police Captain in Bavaria circa late 1944. By then you could see the end was coming, it was just a matter of time. You wanted a small pistol for you wife in case it was the French or Russians that liberated your town. Can't just borrow a pistol from stock because they would shoot you if they found out. You have enough influence because of your position that a privately owned handgun would not be questioned.

So where there is a market someone will fill the need. A friends Dad has a PPK with NO markings other than caliber on the barrel. He was in a unit that got to the Walther factory first and he was able to find everything but grips.

Interesting answer 2152hq, thanks.

In a way, it's a tangible example of Nazi hubris that they would be making anything other than war materiel in late '43 or '44.

Back when I worked part time at Shooter's a regular customer came in with his neighbor lady. She was some where in her 70's and her husband had passed away. She had a WWII Walther PPK in .32 with the brown grips and all the other attractions and a holster. Her husband had been in Germany after it was liberated and brought the pistol home and took up his career in law enforcement.

She placed it on consignment for $550.00 which I thought was quite low but that is what she wanted so I let it sit for about a week and bought it. I took it to Eagle Trading in Kenosha and I showed it to fred who I thought was going to have a heart attack. I ended up trading it to him for an S&W. I always liked the Walthers they are neat little guns.

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Stan

About the "hot loaded submachine gun ammo". The Europeans have a different organization that standardizes chamber/ammo dimensions and specifications called CIL. Their standards are not necessarily the same as SAAMI (the US manufacturers organization). In addition, the 2 groups measure chamber pressures differently. I don't have any references handy, but my recollection is that the CIL 9mm pressures are about what our +P pressures are and, as noted, are measured in a different location. SAAMI measures about the midpoint of the case body, CIL at the case mouth (which means the pressure, measured SAAMI style, is even higher!).

So, is european 9mm ammo loaded hotter than US ammo? Yes! Is it blow the primers out sub gun ammo? No. Might the Wehrmacht have specified some specialized ammo, say for use in the Russian winter? Could be, but kind of doubt it. I do know that there was some strange stuff loaded as bullets, in part trying to reduce expenditure of strategic materials so it could be used elsewhere. Since the toggle link action of the P08 is ammo sensitive, this could be the cause of ammo marked for use only in the P08.

I think a lot of these "hot ammo" rumors started with guys who fired wimpy SAAMI spec loads and european ammo in the same session and decided the other stuff just had to be special, hot ammo.