jphrenden: I have visited the "Last Stand" site twice and have read extensively of the battle and of Custer's prior military career. I recommend for your reading, "Custer's First Sargent" by John Ryan. It is available on Amazon or at the memorial's bookstore. That book gives a personal perspective on the Custer personality that is either omitted from some histories or is over emphasized in others, IMHO.

My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla

[QUOTE

My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla[/QUOTE]

I have not heard a better description of a lot of the FUBARS that have occurred in the last 100 years..

Ditto on what Handejector said.
Custer was the vision of the "Boy General". It's true, he left the artillery back home. Has that much really change since the Indian Wars?
Not yet recognized was the fact that the many brass cartridges were carried in loops and were corroded with green Verdigris caused by the leather.Hence them failing to eject from the Trapdoor action.

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... fortunate son...

There is another good book entitled "Custer in "76" by Walter Mason Camp, 1867-1925. It is notes he compiled from interviews with surviving participants, unfortunately he died before he could compile them into a narrative. The Scout Curley said no one interviewed him as closely as Camp.
Custer fought a very poor battle. He was suppose to perform a scouting and intelligence function, instead he tried to win more glory for himself. He divided his forces in the face of the enemy, they could not support each other, the terrain was too open for a proper defense, he had no idea of the numbers he was facing. Also he seems to have had contempt for the enemy, always a bad thing. I read Marquis' book, he noted that the 7th had a reputation as an "Indian fighting" outfit, but the only time they had actually fought Indians was at the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868, then the Black Hills expedition of 1873 which was actaully fairly peaceful. Marquis questions how many veterans of those earlier actions were still on active duty in 1876, and how good the men of the 7th really were.

I live fairly near, and have visited seveal times, the Rock Island Arsenal Museum. Back in the late 1980's it was known as the Johnathan Browning Museum at the Rock Island Arsenal. At that time they had a display of various small arms used by the 7th Cavalry along with six rifles identified as used by the Indians at the Little Big Horn. These Indian weapons were identified by using firing pin indent and land and groove castings. This was made possible after an extensive prairie fire at the Little Big Horn in 1983 allowed a fruitful archeological examination of the site (metal detectors, etc.). Spent casings and bullets were mapped and these Indian rifles were matched to those items (and actually tracked around the battle area - Reno Hill and Last Stand Hill in some cases)! These weapons were those confiscated from the Indians over the years and found their way to the Arsenal. I'm not sure whether the museum still has these weapons on display today. I'm going to check that out and report back. But, they do also have a large display of U.S. military small arms going back a couple of hundred years. These include some s/n 1 pieces and some experimental wild stuff as well as many others. It used to be worth a visit and I hope it still is. I'll find out.
By the way, the six Indian rifles were: New Model 1869 Sharps carbine, Modl 1874 Sharps carbine, New Model 1859 Sharps carbine, Model 1870 Springfield carbine, Model 1870 Springfield rifle, and Model 1873 Winchester rifle. They actually tested some of these old weapons. There was a full report written. I have a copy. It was titled "The Indian Guns of the Little Big Horn", by Kris Leinicke.
In addition, here is a link to a seven page report on the weapons used by General Custer's men at the Little Big Horn: Lone Star Rifle Company Houston, Texas

It looks like the Rock Island Arsenal Museum still has 5 of the Indian rifles from the Little Big Horn. Here is a link to the Arsenal Museum home page. The section dealing with the history of the museum mentions some of the interesting things on display. I think it's worth reading.
MUSEUM

Looks like Custer had his visions of grandour of being president way too soon. Being a military hero obviously benefited a number of past and future presidents including George Washington, Andy Jackson, US Grant, and even Teddy Roosevelt and Eisenhower later on.

Yep, he was robbed of his destiny . . . if he'd only won.

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- Change it back -

Rather than offer an opinion on the big question, I'll point out that the .45 Government ammo that was issued for the Springfields was made of soft copper cases. As many of you will know, blackpowder befouls weapons very quickly. When the Springfields got crudded up, the copper cases stuck in the chambers, the extractors would just tear through the rims and a useless rifle existed. Try to place yourself in a troopers' mind as the enemy comes from all sides, your rifle is useless and your Colt 1873 is slow to reload. Against overwhelming numbers....NO CHANCE!!!

The one thing you can say for sure about Custer is...he was not a coward.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Lots of misinformation is being posted here on the weapons and ammo used by the 7th Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

1. The US Army in 1876 was not using Allen Conversion 50-70 Rifles or Carbines at the battle. The 7th had the newest Model 1873 Springfield Breech Loading Carbines in 45-70. Capt. Thomas French who Commanded Co. M of the 7th had with him at the battle a personal owned Model 1868 Springfield 50-70 Rifle. This was not a converted rifle like the Model 1866 Springfield.

2. It is true that the 45-70 ammo was cooper cased. Yes, the guns heat up after a number of rounds are fired. Many people believe that due to this heating up of the barrel and chamber the cooper would expand and stick in the chamber and the case head would be ripped off by the ejector stud. This is simply not true. The 45-70 ammo was issued to the troops in May when they left Fort Lincoln. The troops made there own leather looped cartridge belts. They could carry more ammo on there body and spread it out more evenly then keeping the rounds in the belt mounted M1874 Dyer pouch that only holds 25 rounds. The cooper cases reacted with the chemical tanned leather loops and belts and formed the green stick substance called verdigrises. Buy the time the 7th had rode from Fort Lincoln to the Bighorn Valley the cartridges had a large amount of verdigrises on them and they also had been exposed to much dirt. The heating of the guns melted the verdigrises and this stuck the cases in the chambers. Some accounts state that only after firing one round some Troopers had spend cases get stuck in the carbine. If the Troopers had kept the ammo clean they would not have had such a problem. Yes, the cooper cased 45-70 ammo was a folded case which means the whole case was folded into shape from a single sheet of cooper which is softer then brass.

After the battle the Army Ordinance Department studied this and Lt. Anson Mills of the 5th Cavalry had his patterned Mills Pattern canvas cartridge belt adopted in 1876. It was not until 1877 that these belt became issued in large numbers. The canvas did not react with the cooper cases and the Army used the cooper cased 45-70 ammo well into them 1890's.

George Custer and William Westmoreland -- same over inflated ego, 100 years apart, innocent soldiers dead because they know better.

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S&WHF 366

One of the reasons for the development of the web Mills belt was the after-action report of Custer's defeat on the Little Big Horn.

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TomD

I work as a curator at a military museum, and a good friend of mine, Brian Pohanka, who some of you may have seen as a talking head on the TV series, " Civil War Journals ". told me an intriguing story about George Custer. One of Brian's great interest was the battle at the Little Big Horn.

He told me that the records show that when Custer's body was recovered , he was buried in a grave along with his brother Tom. Each man had an empty shell case place in their mouths with a piece of paper identifying them.

A year or so later when it was decided to recover the officer's bodies , and inter the enlisted men in a common grave, the body that was identified as General Custer was removed from a grave that had only contained a single body.

This body was reburied at the cemetery at West Point. Brian said that there is a good possibility that the body at West Point is an unidentified enlisted man. Kind of ironic...oh Brian Pohanka died way too early several year ago. A good friend and a great historian

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TomD

Looking at it with the filter of today's realities - armchair quarterbacking -
I can only say that IMO, this is a classic case of fighting the last war during the current one.

Too many errors to allow any decent hope of success. Custer didn't study his enemy and therefore didn't "know him".

Hubris - never a good ally was a full partner.

Armament, not sufficient for the task, but not knowing the enemy, Custer didn't know this.

I tend to side with the natives to a degree, but I love America too. Screwing over the Indians was NFG, but like I said earlier, armchair quarterbacking with today's realities is different than being on the ground in the day.

The lesson to me is not to disdain AND underestimate your opponent - it never ends well.

GARRY OWEN.......

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4th SQD 7th CAVALRY

RE: the jammed cases in the carbines.. Capt French was cited by his men for moving under fire during the Reno fight on the bluff, and using the cleaning rod from his "long tom" rifle to drive the verdigris jammed cases from his troopers carbines.

Then there is the tale of Trooper Slaper's boot heel. That battle was the source of more stories than any other twice it's size.

I see him so frequently on the various History and Discovery Channels that I had no idea that he'd died. Too bad. I'll miss him almost as much as Ian Hogg.

I am really sorry to hear this too (as this is the first I've heard of this loss) and 50 is waaaaaaay to young to go. I really enjoyed learning from him (on TV).

R.I.P.

I read (forget where of course) that the copper (not brass) 45-70 case used were too soft, often the extractor would pull the head off and there was no issued stuck case remover at the time. After the Little Big Horn a brass case was adopted and a stuck case remover was issued.
I met Brian Pohanka in 1991 at the Cedar Creek reenactment, he was there with the 5th New York-Duryee's Zouaves.
I wouldn't compare Custer with Westmoreland, Custer didn't have to put
with LBJ and McNamara micromanaging the conflict. Westmoreland was in the same position that most German generals were in WWII-a highly paid NCO.
I have read that more has been written about the Little Big Horn than about Gettysburg, no doubt because the absence of after action reports from the 7th-and the Indians-allowed a lot of people to fill the gap with their own questionable scholarship.

When I think of G.A. Custer, the words Over Confidient and Under Armed come to mind. Also the word Idiot comes to mind. In four years in the US Army, I saw lots of Patton and Custer wannabes, suprisingly the West Point Grads were the last to be this way.

Rule 303

There were many Civil War era "boy generals"----and there were others, during 1876, who contributed to the Custer debacle-How about that Rosebud battle.
The politicians sent the 7th into that mess. If not for these soldiers we would be missing a few states. The American Indian was a resourceful, tough combatant-but they could not fight the conventional war. By 1901 we were fielding some of the best trained soldiers in the world-

This was not the only unit that was left on its own-for what ever reason-blunders in intelligence, poor leadership and so on. WW1's lost battalion, WW2 the Phillipines, Task Force Smith-Korea, and Vietnam-same thing.
Surely, our political hero's won't needlessly sacrifice trops in the current theaters of war.

Why would an honorable soldier attack a village that supposedly contained women , children and old folks ?

Its hard for me to pass judgement after 134 years. Heck, thats the year my grandpa was born. There have been a ton of movies made, probley not much truth in any of them.
The mindset on indians back then was far different than now. I doubt any of it was PC. I have read how general sherman backed buffalo hunting to starve the indians to death.
Anytime one race uses torture it generates a lot of hate. Veterans still hate japanese, also north vietnam etc.
We hated iraq when saddom had his own people gassed, thrown off roofs and the beheadings. The hatred lasts forever for those that have witnessed the tortures, but soon the liberal PC crowd takes over the public thinking of people who wasnt around or 4,000 miles away when it happened.
The indians were into torture back then. There was little PC compared to now. I imagine a lot of people didnt consider indians human back then. Why else would soliders commit suicide rather than surrender? I cant seriously belive custer belived only women, kids and old people were there. That isnt beliveable at all! Now I do belive he knew some would be present. Likely most old people would have stayed on the res I would guess. As I said earlier in my old post, I belive custer was so embolden by past victorys in both the civil war and past indian battles he felt invincable and was sure the indians would mostly panic and run. Also he wanted to make a name for himself to sweep the presidency. I really dont think it was as complicated as we are makeing it to be. Egotistical and ambitious. Also those indians just didnt behave like he thought they would.

Much if not most of the action in the Indian Wars would be called "ethnic cleansing" today, an attempt to remove undesireable people from desireable real estate-cf the "Trail of Tears" the Cherokess had to endure.
The attitude towards the Indians was they were "sub-humans"-they probably thought the same thing about their enemies, hence attacking villages was considered a legitimate tactic and strategic ploy-cf the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868.
I am pretty right wing but I did not object when in 1991 the Custer Battlefield was renamed the Little Big Horn Battlefield. Battlefields are rarely named after one of the commanders and defnitely not the losing commander. One of the few battles/campaigns I can think of that is names after a commande-in this case, a sucessful one-is the Brusilov Offensive of 1916.

Best thing is to walk the field over the years in all seasons and read, read, read. We're supposed to learn from history. We hardly ever do.

Last time I was up there the movie "We Were Soldiers" had just come out. The park ranger giving the talk was retired USA, and looked and talked EXACTLY like Sgt. Plumley. Had a hell of a fine conversation with him after he talked to the thundering herd.

I have done a few in-depth battlefield tours and always gotten a LOT out of them. If I was rich I'd spend half my time travelling the world trying to understand the history school ignored.

Ohhh, probably for the same reason we destroyed the guerrillas in the Phillipines in 1902, starved the Germans in 1919, dropped thousands of tons of bombs on Holland, France, Belgium, Germany and Japan during WWII. And 90% of the detsructuion of Japanese cities was caused by fire bombings-not the atomic bombs. At the end of WW1 and II the beligerant nations still had viable armies. Soooo, guess who many of the casualties were.
A foot note: Fort Sill is, for the most part, on Indian Reservation land.

So to answer your question as to why...politicians are the cause.

He's dead.

That's just my personal take on him though. I could be wrong I guess.

Our current president reminds me of Custer.

He was a brave if foolish man. None really know what was his or the army's mindset at the time. He was arrogant, loving family man and had a since of duty. Nobody every questioned his personal bravery. I give you Patton, MacArthur and others. So why don't we let him RIP. Remember as successful as MacArthur was there are still living veterans from the Philippines that still call him Bug Out Doug. Compared to some of our present leaders, I'll take one with courage.

My take on Custer:

At best, an average tactician. A world-class publicist, though.

Interesting thought:

What if James Wilson (the only US Cavalryman to defeat Forrest in a fair fight) or Grierson or Phil Sheridan were at the Little Big Horn?

I had a marine vet friend that told me he witnessed macarther had his fancy household furniture loaded on a ship or boat, leaveing guys that could have been hauled out to be prisoners of the japs! He had no time for Macarther!

As I recall, MacArthur was a manic depressive and was prone to Joan Crawford like scenes of "drama".

Supposedly before the war, he was traveling by train and woke his aid to announce that he was depressed and going to shoot himself. I believe that the sleepy aid said something to the effect of "Could you please get it over with sir, so that I can go back to bed?"

Custer was a poor student at WP and gained prominence in the Civil War through a brevet command (the idiot above him was killed and they moved another idiot up), and political connections. He was also court-martialed in 1867 for going AWOL. He was fame hungry, often bringing correspondents who wrote favorable print on him, on campaign.
He gave no credit to a people who outnumbered him, were armed basically equal to him (had he brought the Gatling Guns HE WAS ISSUED, he might have won), and who were led by one of the best Guerilla/light cavalry fighters of all time, Crazy Horse.
My Grandfather always said Custer just suffered from "Typical Yankee arrogance and ignorance" (his people were Confederate cavalry). If Custer were alive today I believe rather than Cavalry, he probably would end up on some reality/megalomania TV show. His "Last Stand" is a testament to the fact that you can't ignore all the rules of military engagement, and for that matter common sense, and pull through it just because you have a "swashbuckling adventurer" image. If Patton had attacked a Nazi position with half the ment they had, armed with pistols and left his tanks at base, no one would have lionized him, they would have rightly called him a fool. Custer was a fool, and got a lot of fresh off the boat Micks (AKA My People) killed, all due to his arrogant preoccupation with self.

For all his faults and his ego to boot, I think it's safe to say that Custer had more guts and fighting spirit than today's politically correct generals.

As did a good portion of the Japanese Army during WWII.

How'd that work out for them?

A brave idiot is alas, still an idiot.

During the war between the states, Custer fought bravely, led from the front which is what he was supposed to do. During the Indian wars he tried the same thing but some of his officers were not of the best caliber. There was a lot of either you loved or hated him and no in beteen.


During the battle of the Washita he left behind a Major Elliot and about 16 troopers who were later found pretty much slaughtered, this helped the officers who didn't like him because no matter what you don't leave anyone behind.


Custer also hunted down and shot alleged deserters out of hand, yet deserted his column and was courtmartailed for it.


During the battle for the little Bighorn he ignored orders from his superiors, split his column and ignored advise from his scouts. None of this bodes well for his wisdom. He may or may not have been looking to replace Grant as President we will never know for sure.


He led his men into what became a trap because he didn't ant the Indians to get away. This cost him and his men thier lives.


There were a lot of good leaders from the war who became good indian fighters Ranald McKenzie is a prime example but very few have heard of him.

Custer was already famous, and he needed to keep that fame alive, his widow also kept that myth alive for years.

Yesterday I watched Erol Flynn as Custer playing him as a knight.

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Stan

Excellent post and my opinion also. I would add one caveat. Custer, although his scouts were convinced, did not believe there was an encampment as large as it was. Since a gathering of this size had never taken place before, his thinking was in line with the times.

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regards....roger (no sig)

I wish I'd know this 15 years ago before I bought and read the 20 to 25 books I have on the subject !

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regards....roger (no sig)

While we're drifting onto MacArthur, I lost a little more respect for him after I learned how he handled the Bonus Marchers with such enthusiasm. Granted, orders are orders, but I think he actually saw it as a shot at "glory".

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

My understanding is that Custer couldn't get the good ammunition for them. The .45-70 cartridges that they were issued had copper cases. The Springfield rifles and the Gatling guns would commonly tear off the rims of the copper cases leaving them stuck in the chambers. A stuck case in the Springfield can be somewhat easily removed. A stuck case in a Gatling gun requires that the gun be disassembled to clear it. Unless Custer could have obtained the new brass cased cartridges that Frankfort Arsenal was starting to manufacture in late 1875, the Gatling guns were just dead weight to drag around.

Also, the Gatling guns just might have slowed him down enough so that he might never have reached the village when he did. So the Gatlings, even with the **** copper cased cartridges, might have saved his life and the lives of his men.

My uncle was there on Corrigador, and he did spend the war as a Japanese prisoner. My uncle was furious with MacArthur that instead of evacuating nurses, he left the nurses there to be taken prisoner, preferring to save his furniture.

From what I understand, MacArthur FAR exceeded his actual orders in destroying the Bonus camp.

I once considered writing a novel in which MacArthur uses the attack on the Bonus camp as a springboard for a military coup. Maybe some day...

The British loved the Gatling but realized that it couldn't handle the ****** infantry rifle ammunition of the time, especially their coiled brass cased ammunition. As I recall, they used the .45 Gardner-Gatling round in them rather than their own .577/.455.

"Could be worse. Could be bass solo."

Sip, you's a stinka.

Arrogant brain dead sorta guy.

Last I looked, he's still dead.

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Forum consigliere

Do you still have to register with the sheriff and put your picture in the paper??????

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Forum consigliere

A glory hound, as they used to say. Nowadays, a ticket puncher.

Can't Fix Stupid>DEAD

Just a side note that recently came to my attention: According to the oral history of the Northern Cheyenne, Custer was struck down from his horse by a woman, and finished off by women.

Northern Cheyenne break vow of silence

I have no idea how this account squares with other accounts and with the forensic evidence, just found it interesting.

Many things enter into the equasion. One not mentioned was the use of copper cased 45-70 ammo issued to the troops. After firing a few rounds the copper cased ammo stuck in the chambers of the trap door carbines. Many troopers were found with knives near their hands trying to pry out the stuck cartridges. Later the Army used brass cartridge cased amunition because of their findings after the battle. All the troopers had fired their 45 Colt ammo. 18 rounds each if I remember right.