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Old 03-25-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default What is your take on George Armstrong Custer?

I found this clip on YouTube:

YouTube - Little Big Horn full version

If you read through the comments under the video, the general feeling of the commenters is that Custer was an idiot, who knowingly went into the battle, knowing full well that he could be slaughtered, for glory. I am not an expert on this battle, nor any other of the "Indian Wars," but some of these comments seem like bullhocky to me.

There is a lot of U.S., and white race hating going on here, which really gets my blood boiling.

Anyways, read this comment:

"custer fought against the south in the civil war which was a whole different story.The rebels were intelligent white men who knew miltary tactics and courage.These indians were just a mob of savages.

How little you know! The "mob of savages" had superior weaponry. Custer's muskets and revolvers were no match for the "savages' repeating rifles."

While I am no historian, I'm pretty sure that the Lakota did not develop those weapons, the origins of the lever rifle are attributed to Benjamin Tyler Henry if I am not mistaken.

What are your thoughts on this battle?

Jared
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:56 PM
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Hi:
IMHO He underestimated His opponents, was out numbered, and out gunned. There is an old military maximin- "Cavalry dismounted and surrounded is doomed".
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:58 PM
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IMHO....

The little Big Horn was a considerable cluster...

He and the US Army as a whole was unprepared for the type of war the
natives were going to wage.
As is the case in most conflicts after a disaster we tend to adapt and overcome..

Sadly the 7th cav suffered from the cumalitive effects of underestimating a foe and over estimating your own abilities.

Read the art of war..
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:10 PM
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He exhibited the same arrogance that Capt Fetterman did when he bragged before being wiped out.

He didn't believe his scouts when they told him "If you go down there you will all die."

He divided his forces. He was out gunned. The Indians fired 13 rounds to one for every military round fired.

As stated above, when he dismounted his troops, he gave up the only advantage he had. However, his troops and horses were completely exhausted and probably couldn't have mounted an adequate charge to overcome the best light cavalry in the world.

He was in deep doo-doo from the outset.

When he dismounted his troops he was simply overwhelmed by superior weapons and firepower.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:23 PM
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His ego outweighed his ability
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:24 PM
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According to Stephen Ambrose'1975 book "Crazy Horse and Custer", Custer made four critical mistakes: (paraphrasing a bit):
1. He refused to accept Terry's offer of four troops of the 2nd Cav. If Reno had had two more troops with him, he might have had sufficient momentum to make a successful chafrge when he first came upon the Sioux camp. Had Custer had two more troops with him, he might have made it up the hill.
2. Custer badly underestimated his enemy, not so much in terms of numbers as in terms of fighting capability, where he was disastrously wrong.
3. He assumed that his men could do what he could do; to put it another way, he attacked too soon. He should have spent June 25 resting, then attacked the next day, when Gibbon could have, on urgent request, reinforced him. All Indian accounts agree that Custer's men and horses, like Reno's, were so exhausted that their legs trembled. It was a hot day, which further cut the trooper's efficiency. He committed his command when he did not know his enemie's position, strength, or location. He also lost the element of surprise. His enemies knew more about his force than he knew about them.
4. When he lost the initiative, he failed to gain the high ground and dig in, although here one should perhaps blame Custer less and praise Crazy Horse more.

I've read a lot about Custer and the Little Big Horn and have been there. It is difficult, and maybe impossible, to make a sound judgment of Custer in this day and age. We are making judgements in our context, and not in the context of the world he lived in at the time. From documented testimony of the time, there is no dispute that he was a brave man. But several of his subordinates truly did not like him and thought he kept a favored clique. It was also pretty clear that he would abandon his men if need be to win a battle and gain added fame. But if you read about any of the other military leaders of the later 18th century, many (not all) demonstrated the same mixture of faults, skill, and good traits.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:25 PM
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Tactical, strategic, psychoemotional, battlefield and spiritual blunders merging into one big error of judgment.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:28 PM
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Plain and simple ...... Custer and Fetterman were freakin idiots
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:29 PM
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"superior weapons and firepower"

The 7th Cavalry carried 7.5" Colt's SAA's, and from what I have read, Trapdoor Springfield rifles in .45-70. I wonder why they were not armed with the most advanced rifle, which would have been the 1873 Winchester?

Is it known if he knew that there were more than a 1,000 indians, or did he know and though he could defeat them anyway?

Jared
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:35 PM
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That clip on youtube portrays Custer as an clownish, incompetent lunatic. He was far from it. Those who wish to believe it aren't fit the clean his boots. He made a mistake, and it sure was a big one, but that happens in war. It shouldn't take away from his accomplishments serving this country. That's my final word.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:43 PM
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What Jag312 said. Custer was not stupid or crazy, and I don't believe for a minute he intended to die at Little Big Horn. He was unprepared and overconfident, and that is usually disastrous in war.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:45 PM
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YouTube - Little Big Man - "You Go Down There"
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:51 PM
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The Indians say that Custer died at the river in the very earliest part of his engagement. His subordinates tried to save the day but were simply over run.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:56 PM
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Guys, say what you will about Custer (and Lord knows there's a lot to say), but it's a mistake to look at his actions without considering the context in which he operated.

Until the Battle of the Rosebud, which happened just prior to the Little Bighorn and which Custer didn't know about, the Sioux had always bolted when the Army appeared. The commanders' aim was to fix the "Injuns" in place and then destroy them; naturally, the Sioux weren't having any of it--the warriors would delay the soldiers while the rest of the camp got away, then take off themselves. Campaigns turned into long, frustrating tail-chases for the Army, and they seldom came to grips with the Sioux. Thus, when Custer came upon the huge encampment on the Greasy Grass, he wasn't thinking of survival--he was thinking of keeping the Indians from getting away. Sort of ironic, really.

Also, the Sioux had never before gathered in such huge numbers. Nor would they do so again. Nothing in Custer's experience, nor that of any other Army officer at the time, would have led him to expect to meet literally thousands of warriors in one place.

Custer ran into a set of unprecedented circumstances. His own shortcomings may have hastened his end, but given what was known (and assumed) at the time, it's unlikely that the outcome would have been different had any other officer been in charge.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

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Old 03-25-2010, 11:08 PM
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HE WAS A NARCISSIST !!!!! THAT is what got ALL of them into trouble!

HE had NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER. It's really that simple.

It wasn't about "firepower" or "positioning" or "underestimating"........or "misinformation"............................
it was all about "him". Ever met any of those people? "It's all about me"?
If you've ever had to work with one (or serve under one) or been/are married to one, then you'll KNOW what that means. In the mean time you can google NPD and all the criteria that need to be met to be "classified".
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
The Indians say that Custer died at the river in the very earliest part of his engagement. His subordinates tried to save the day but were simply over run.
I have heard the same as Iggy...he was shot at the river and his brother Tom drug him up to the "last stand"..I used to live not far from there...it is worth the stop to view the battlefield and how it progressed if you are ever in the area. IMO though Custer did have a big ego but I think that came out of his time spent during the Civil War. Just at the wrong place at the wrong time and did not listen to his advisers...again, just my opinion.
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:31 PM
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I havent watched the video yet. My past studys of him has given me these opinions. First he was over confident from past sucess`s. 2nd, he was very ambitious and had presidental asperations. He no doubt thought a big win would win the presidency for him. 3rd, no question about it, he underestimated the indians and no doubt their numbers. 4th, he wanted to beat out terry and reno to the punch. He was scared they would get away! He also left the gatling gun as he was worried it would slow him down.
I dont know the correct phsyco words, but he sure was one. Kind of reminds me of our potus. All in love with himself, contempt for all others, ambitious, and spurred on by past success.
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:34 PM
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i take the video stupid. be side of the racial remarks the 7 CAV was armed with 1873 colt and springfield trapdoor in 45-50. if i remember right.
he was out gun the tribes there was arm with every thing from french pin guns to firearms equal to OR BETTER the trooper own.
G.A Custer order when too wait for the south column of troop , i for got the genenal named, before attach the indian camp. the south column was late. because they got defeated at the little rosebud by crazy horse. THE KING OF THE RUNNING AMBUSH.
if i remeber right their was a third column. but i not sure about that.

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Old 03-25-2010, 11:36 PM
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What are the odds that Custer would have been fragged if he had served in Viet Nam ? I went to grade school with some of the descendants of the Sioux warriors that defeated Custer. The skill and intelligence of the Sioux should not be discounted as one of the main factors in their victory although it appears pretty clear that it would have been helpful to the cavalry if Custer had had a brain.
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:44 PM
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tell it like it is.

Last edited by handejector; 03-26-2010 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:56 AM
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When I was 14 I started doing Indian War Military Living History. I still portray a 1876 Infantry Soldier once and awhile to this day. When I was 16 I got a job as a Interpreter(Tour Guide)at Fort Abraham Lincoln State Park, Custer's last Post. I was a 7th Cavalry Private in the year 1875 and we did some first person interpretation in the replica buildings at the Cavalry Post. We got the Custer lovers and the Custer haters!(Much like the men who served under him in both Wars!) The tours of the building for the most part where done as if the year was 1875 and it was hard to get ever one to get on board with this.

At the end of the tour when we dropped caricature I would get this question a lot. I was honest with my answer. Custer was a brash Cavalry Officer. At West Point he was a bad student of the academics but a great student of Cavalry Tactics which is why he did so well in the Civil War. When the Plains Indian Wars came along he was up the creek as just about all the Military Officers of the time were. He did adapt to Indian War fare which many historians type as Gorilla Warfare. Bottom line is he could not fight the Plains Indian on his terms or the way he knew how too. He did have respect for them as people but when it came to fighting them he thought he had the upper hand. He was arrogant and this is what got him and many men of the 7th killed.

When it comes to weapons of the Battle of Little Bighorn both side had good weapons. The 7th was out numbered. The force and anger of the Plains Indians was no match.

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Old 03-26-2010, 06:26 AM
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When I served in the Army, we were taught to know our enemy. Custer greatly underestimated his enemy and it cost him and his troops their lives.
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:27 AM
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All things considered...Custer had it coming.

Unfortunately, a lot of other men that didn't deserve it, went down with him.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:05 PM
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“First; he was over confident from past successes. 2nd; he was very ambitious and had presidential ambitions”. Quote: feralmerril

The ego and ambition undoubtedly led to seeing things the way you want them to be rather than the way that they are.
He was very successful and lucky during the civil war, Politics (the need for successful commanders) had a part in his promotion to Brevet Brigadier General at a very young age. When you read about his post war conduct it is hard to escape the notion that the man was very full of himself.

All the other points above about the unique situation he faced are undoubtedly true, but still we have a commander who looked at the situation and saw what he wanted to see. In life things are the way they are, seldom the way we wish they were.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
If you read through the comments under the video, the general feeling of the commenters is that Custer was an idiot, who knowingly went into the battle, knowing full well that he could be slaughtered, for glory.
That was always my impression of him. But to be fair, since not one person ever met him personally the only thing we have to judge him by is what we have heard from others. So how well do you trust the opinions of those "others"?
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:35 PM
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Custer: I don't like the sound of them drums.

Indian (yelling back): He's not our regular drummer.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:54 PM
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Custer's defeat was a textbook failure to adhere to basic military principles:

Concentration of force
Unity of command
Enemy intelligence
Violence of action
Firepower

Custer divided his already inadequate force.
Custer divided his force into elements with conflicting imperatives.
Custer lacked essential elements of enemy intelligence. He attacked into an intelligence void.
Custer's divided and inadequate force lacked the combat power to immobilize and destroy the enemy. It lacked the combat power to merely survive.
Custer's force had the firepower to successfully engage a smaller force at close range. Custer's force had the firepower to successfully engage a larger force at long range. Custer's force lacked the firepower to engage a vastly superior force at close range, especially one equipped with substantial numbers of weapons with superior firepower.

The Japanese committed the same fatal errors on a vastly greater scale, over a longer period during the Battle of Nomonhan in 1939, and with identical results.

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Old 03-26-2010, 12:58 PM
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Custer had a Spanish Toledo sword he captured during the Civil War. It was inscribed "Draw me not without cause, sheath me not without Honor". He was known for being "in front" of this troupes leading and encouraging, not behind them, Soldiers called him "Strong Arm".
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:08 PM
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I saw a documentary a few years back about the archaeological work that was done at the battlefield after a brush fire in 1983. It was fascinating to see how they were able to track the movements of individuals by using forensic ballistics to match fired casings to individual firearms, and thus be able to track where the gun's user moved around during the battle.

I look forward to visiting the battlefield one day.

This is a link on the research:

AmeriSurv.com - Verdict at the Little Bighorn
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:08 PM
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Custer was an egomaniac who had no problems chasing glory, regardless of who he killed or got killed. What was he doing in Sioux territory anyway? Seems like he was there illegally, that he heard there was gold up there. Remember, he left his Gatling guns behind because they slowed him down. Also remember that he was a General in the Civil War. I bet his social status was the only thing that kept him from being busted a lot more than he was. Just looking at the Little Big Horn as Custer vs Red Cloud, I'd say the good guy won. But, then, I'm just an ignorant Southerner, with a little Indian blood in me.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:14 PM
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General Sturgis, who lost his son Lt. Sturgis at the Little Big Horn, said Custer was Brave but "lacked judgement". I think it's a good summation. All his other faults produced this "lack of judgement".
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:02 PM
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.... He's not our regular drummer.

Leave it to Sip...

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Old 03-26-2010, 07:21 PM
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I watched a show the other night on the History channel about the history(duh) of the machine gun... while discussing the Gatling gun, they said that Custer had been issued five of them, but chose to leave the 800lb each weapons behind when he went out that time... would it have made a difference, or would the army just ended up having to deal with a tribe that was armed with machine guns later on? Makes you kinda go Hmmm...
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:37 PM
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Custer made some bad decisions at the little big horn. I do not think however he was a fool or clown like he is made out to be today. I am not a expert on military strategy, but at least one general (Patton) was highly impressed with Custers ability as a leader.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:12 PM
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Hi:
I have often wondered about the decision to leave the Gatling Guns as the Gatlings would slow the Seventh? The British carried Cannons and Gatlings on Mules with their Cavalry.
Jimmy
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphendren View Post
"superior weapons and firepower"

The 7th Cavalry carried 7.5" Colt's SAA's, and from what I have read, Trapdoor Springfield rifles in .45-70. I wonder why they were not armed with the most advanced rifle, which would have been the 1873 Winchester?

Is it known if he knew that there were more than a 1,000 indians, or did he know and though he could defeat them anyway?

Jared
There are reasons why the Winchester 1873 was not chosen as a military rifle. Though it was a quick handeling repeaters and may have been beneficial to the 7th Cav in this one battle, it was not the superior military rifle using typical tactics of the day. Even in 44-40, it's pistol ammo was too underpowered and short ranged.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:37 PM
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I have read that the 45-70s they had heated up after a few rounds and the fired shells stuck in the chambers. I belive some of the shells they recovered showed evidence of being pried out with knives.
Sounds like custer was focused on being a hero, and at the start of the battle was worried he would be outshined. He probley thought this would be the very last indian battle and it would be his last chance at being a hero again. This would make him president! This would absolve him for heat he took hanging deserters. This would outshine him for running back to illinois on a unauthorised leave. He probley thought most the indians would run in fear when they opened up on them, and certainly they could easily kill the few that stood. Take care of them, then run down and kill all the slow ones that they could all the way back to the reservation. Remember he even took a young nephew to witness the last indian battle. Seems I recall he also took a reporter too? Aint sure about that one.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:48 PM
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His intel - that the village was populated only by old men, women, and children - was wrong. He was hellbent on destroying it before the warriors returned. Oops.

His firepower - normally superior - was sub-par. His Springfields had no ram rods for clearing empty cases or cleaning - they were left behind to save weight. 2-3 rounds, and they were unserviceable. His Gatlings were elsewhere.

Forensic studies in 1983 showed the use of a few Henry rifles - the same ones circling the area, probably for good shots. It was a turkey shoot. The attack on a thought to be undefended village did him in - taking the low ground for his 'stand' sealed his fate. Oops.

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Old 03-26-2010, 09:04 PM
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The 7th had Spencer repeating carbines during some early operations, these had been superceded by the trapdoor carbines. The carbines would sometimes jam and malfunction and were - if I remember - loaded with ammo that was less powerful than that used in rifles. Some of the officers had personally owned revolvers. Webleys and other British guns were actually popular at the time.

Anyway, the Turks used a mix of Winchesters and single shot rifles to defeat the Russians at Plevna, however most military authorities at the time didn't feel that the carbine was a good compromise. Aside from the usual parsimony that plagued the US Army for a great many years (fears of the unwashed wasting expensive ammo, which resurfaced with the switch from full auto to three round burst with the move from M16A1 to A2...), the simple fact was that once you emptied your carbine at short range, it took a while to reload. Trained men meanwhile could keep up a decent rate of fire with single shot weapons. Usually if whites held their discipline, it was difficult for Indians to defeat any substantial number of troops.

Fetterman was unlucky, though there were other command problems and quite likely botched orders at Fort Kearny that contributed. Custer wasn't exactly helped by the performance of Reno and Benteen.

Michigan's state OCS classes are still held at Fort Custer, named after THAT Custer, down near Battle Creek.
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:49 PM
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The way I read it years ago the trapdoors were a conversion of the muzzle loading springfields. After the civil war they were converted to the trapdoors for a couple bucks. I read the chooseing of them was strickly a cost factor.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:08 PM
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Like that's not a factor in today's military...
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:44 PM
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Stephen Ambrose, author of "Band of Brothers" and "Citizen Solders" also wrote a book called "Crazy Horse and Custer." His historical presentation of Custer was not at all flattering. If Ambrose's account is true, Custer was about the furthest thing from an American hero.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:30 PM
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Clearly the subject of this thread is of interest. A century and a third after the event, we are still talking about it.

I tend to give great weight to the opinions and insights of his contemporaries. After the Little Big Horn, both General Sheridan and President Grant, who knew him well, considered the disaster completely of Custer's own doing. Reno was acquitted in a court martial. Benteen continued in a successful military career. If there was any attempt at scapegoating, it clearly didn't work.

The consensus opinion I get from the posts above is pretty close to the loose opinion I had formed from casual reading over the last few decades: A showboat with more self-esteem than was warranted, incapable of really understanding his enemy, underinformed about the dimensions of the threat in his vicinity, unable to evaluate the possibility that his perceptions might be mistaken, quick to adopt tactics that no one would have pursued with a realistic understanding of the situation, and too trusting of his own reputation for cavalry smarts.

A business strategist once told me, "It's a bad plan that can't be changed." Custer launched a plan involving divided forces that left him no way to change direction when things started to go wrong.

A complete tragedy.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:44 AM
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I have not read this entire thread, so forgive any repetition.

Some ramblings, perhaps interesting.....

In my past, I was a bibliophile. In the 80's, I was a dealer of mild noteriety in rare/out of print sporting books. I became very enthralled in Custer's Last Fight. At that time- the 80's it was widely stated that only one other battle in history had more books written specifically about it than the Little big Horn- Waterloo.

Regrettably, most of my library is currently in storage. I still have my Little Big Horn collection, which included every book to that date about the battle. One of those books is an 1876 Congressional Record, with the brief report on the battle, and a foldout map of the battlefield marked with the original burials.

Find the books by Marquis. He was a doctor on the rez, and interviewed MANY of the Sioux participants.

My opinions-
The troopers were not outgunned. That is a common myth, perpetuated in part to remove and alleviate the shock and panic induced by the news that the greatest army on earth had just suffered the worst defeat against Indians in its entire history, and the news reached the east during the CENTENNIAL celebration on July 4th!!! The US was a HUNDRED years old, and just got WHUPPED by the stone age!

Sure, they may have had the odd Winchester here or there, but, actually, the best weapons they had were a few Trapdoors and Colts taken on the Rosebud the month before.

If you read the Indians' accounts, they figured out very quickly they did not have to die that day. They walked or crawled up the gullies, and fired volleys of arrows at high arcs. Pull out your copy of "Gladiator" or "Braveheart" and see how that works. Remember, the troopers did not have shields to make a "Turtle", and their horses were mostly dead on the ground, so they could not get under them. BTW- WHAT must go through a CAVALRY trooper's mind when the order comes to shoot your horse for cover? I bet it is something like "This ain't goin good at all...."
There is some good evidence that perhaps more than a dozen troopers from the Grays committed mass suicide when that troop became somewhat isolated from the main force.

The Indians Marquis interviewed said the battle on Custer Hill lasted "about the time it takes a man to eat his dinner".

Reno's performance is very puzzling. He had a valiant record from the Civil War (sic). The man had no less than FIVE horses shot out from under him. It is well known he despised Custer. Custer had him make the initial assult across the creek, PROMISING to "support him". That assault was halted by a gully, and the fiasco of Reno's actions began.

Benteen was the hero of the day. Period

Custer was a narcissist, it is true. He was surrounded by a corps of sycophants his entire career.
He was much favored by fate and circumstance in the civil war. However, his bravado and bravery cannot be discounted during that war. The fact that he was in the right place at the right time, on several notable occasions, combined with the guts to "jump in, and devil take the hindmost" attitude, obtained him much glory, and instilled a sense of "destiny" in him.

His Crow scouts tried to tell him it was a "big village" because they were seeing the largest pony herd they had ever seen. Custer, even with a spyglass, could not get a grasp of how large it was. All of the village was NOT visible from his initial position. I do believe his intent was to let Reno take whatever losses he would sustain while he maneuvered for the best position to attack from.
The Crow scouts, almost to a man, chose to slip away, and live another day.......

Utter Trivia-
I grew up in Atlanta. In my neighborhood was Benteen elementary school. It was my understanding that Col Benteen had donated the land for the school. I remember an old man tottering around the neighborhood on a cain, wearing a campaign hat, that my Dad addressed as "Capt. Benteen". He was the son of the Col that served under Custer. My Dad bought the land our house was on from Capt. Benteen. I don't remember seeing him but a very few times in my very early years, and my Dad telling me he was "a soldier". I remember he and my Dad speaking once, and I was chided to "be quiet, and listen to this gentleman". He died when I was rather young. I have better memories of a rather crotchety old lady that lived two blocks away when riding my bike. She would often yell at us if we rode too close to her "bushes". Her name was Anita Benteen Mitchell, the daughter of the Capt. Before her name became Mitchell, her future husband, a rather well known Atlanta attorney, had handled the sale of the land to my Dad. His name was Stephens Mitchell. He had a sister named Margaret that wrote some book about the Wind.....
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:47 AM
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One more note-
I love Ambrose for his entertaining style, but his book on Crazy Horse and Custer, is, IMO, merely whimsical, entertaining, anecdotal rambling, AT BEST. There are far better accounts to spend your time on.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:26 AM
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I'd have to say he was a "typical ring knocker". He got what he deserved but unfortunately his men didn't.
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Old 03-27-2010, 09:23 AM
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You all seem quite knowledgeable on the subject. I was interested in the Ambrose book, but what would you gentlemen as a good book to get an idea of the time period/battle?

Jared
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Old 03-27-2010, 09:32 AM
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Default A Lakotah Perspective

Let me add just a couple of observations based on my reading, and especially, my many conversations with Lakotah and Dakotah elders on the Cheyenne River, Sisseton-Wahpeton, and other so-called "Sioux" reservations in South Dakota.

Custer apparently stumbled onto a Wiyang Wacipi (Sundance), the most sacred ceremony in the life of these tribes, and may have encountered up to as many as 25,000 "Sioux," as well as members of other Northern Plains tribes (e.g., Cheyenne) who shared the same religious ceremonies.

"Sioux" anger at Custer (who had once been regarded as a friend) was immense, and they blamed him for invading the sacred Paha Sapa (Black Hills) in 1874 to pacify the area thus permitting the establishment of gold mining operations, all of this in violation of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty.

To this day, the United States Army still carries on its standard a battle pennant commemorating the massacre of innocents at Wounded Knee in 1890, this a deliberate act of revenge for the defeat at the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn). This glorification of that slaughter remains an indelible stain on the reputation of the United States Army, and will remain so until that battle pennant is removed and destroyed, and the Medals of Honor awarded to some of the participants in that shameful massacre, rescinded.


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Old 03-27-2010, 09:43 AM
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When visiting the battlefield one cannot comprehend the size and scope of the running battle they fought to get to "last stand hill". Soldiers were scattering in all directions from the river to the top of the ridge and there are grave markers scattered over the whole area in all directions. Some stayed together and made it to the hill and died there with Custer.

One factor in the trapdoor rifles they used was their extra ammo was in their saddlebags on the horses which were taken back to the rear so they were woefully short of ammo.

Here's a shot of the last stand but the battle raged way off the picture to the left for at least 1/2 mile or better all the way from the river where the trees are.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:37 AM
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The book Handejector refers to was written by Dr. Thomas B. Marquis based on interviews he did with several warriors that were in the LBH battle.He worked in the resevations, hence he had direct contact with the indians. He was told that several soldiers turned weapons one another and shot themselves, probably out of fear of being captured and tortured.The book´s name is "Keep the Last Bullet for Yourself".
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