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Old 04-24-2010, 10:02 AM
beach elvis beach elvis is offline
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Ok...waitaminnit...
Arizona makes it illegal to be illegal?
That one right there by itself has me scratching my head.
I mean, good for them but does one have to pass further legislation to make committing a crime MORE illegal?

But that's not my real quandry.

Firstly, these advocate groups say that the new laws will result in MORE CRIME. Uh...can't say I understand that.

Then, the mezcan president (quote:"Anywhere there is a mexican, that place is part of Mexico.") says that the new legislation will "effect border relations".

Lemmesee...Mexican military getting in firefights with the U.S. Border Patrol while escorting drug shipments -mind you, using government owned ordnance and vehicles- and there may be an issue with bad border relations....hmmm...

Sorry, folks, but we live in the age of the powerful moron.

And if it turns out that I am indeed off the mark here, please help me to edify myself.

I hope y'all are having a good weekend BTW.

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Old 04-24-2010, 10:14 AM
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This thread will go far
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:20 AM
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Half of me says "Yea Baby" but the other half is scared to death of the "Papers Please" mentality. I see this as a dangerous slope, notwithstanding the problem and the good intentions behind the law. But until we do something to stop the flow-like fining and putting in jail the people who hire the illegals, the problem is going to persist..
I much prefer the armed border approach.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Half of me says "Yea Baby" but the other half is scared to death of the "Papers Please" mentality. I see this as a dangerous slope, notwithstanding the problem and the good intentions behind the law. But until we do something to stop the flow-like fining and putting in jail the people who hire the illegals, the problem is going to persist..
I much prefer the armed border approach.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, mr. Cajun.
Seems Arizona's heart is in the right place but the actions are somewhat curious. Absolutely armed border monitoring is the best way to address the problem IMHO. I'm still, however, a bit foggy about the concept of making an already illegal action to be illegal. Is that a state-by-state thing?
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:34 AM
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+1, Cajunlawyer.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:41 AM
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How about setting up a armed boarder of the entire coastline of Florida? Oh I forgot, wet foot, dry foot policy. Touch the sand (or sand bar)and it's OK
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:42 AM
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The President stated that it is a federal problem.Yet Arizona feels the need to go this on their own?Some 70% in favor.But the "squeaky wheel gets the oil".
Maybe Arizona got the feds attention.This is going to get interesting.

D.G.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beach elvis View Post
Arizona makes it illegal to be illegal?
That one right there by itself has me scratching my head.
My understanding is that it gives local police enforcement power that has been the feds. The feds aren't doing the job, crime by illegals is out of control, so the citizens of AZ are fed up. Can't say I blame them.

This one's going to be fun to watch.

Bob
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:53 AM
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Default 1984 arrives a bit later than predicted.

This makes my head hurt. We are way beyond "politically correct" and well into Newspeak from George Orwell.

ex. Immigration Advocate: Someone who favors illegal activity by potentially legal immigrants because ????

The Feds considering opposing a law that is in agreement with and seeks to enforce current Federal Law?

Like Cajun, I do not want to carry my passport with me 24/7. But IMO the only way we could have effective border control is to take that duty away from the Federal government. And give the reponsibility to ?????

Going to take some aspirin now.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:56 AM
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+1 cajun

This law won't survive a 4th amendment challenge. The police have no authority to stop and detain people without RAS of criminal activity.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:12 AM
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I've watched a number of interviews with advocates of the 'no immigrant is illegal' side.

They miss the point as they all talk about their 'rights'.

And they all act as if they don't have to follow the laws already on the books.

Does the border jumper have the same 'rights' as a legal citizen? Arizona would have us believe otherwise.

More power to them IMHO.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:17 AM
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Hi all,
I have friends and relatives in AZ. After listening to their stories I ended up putting a Pheonix T.V. station webpage in my favorites and I go there and check out the news about once a week.
It is hard to relate to the crime problems they have from here in MO. but I bet the public is demanding something be done (Even if it is wrong) to provide them with some kind of protection.
If I'm not mistaken Pheonix is the #2 city in the world for kidnappings. Most of those have been Mexican drug gang related but a lot more are popping up for ransom. Hit and run, armed robbery, murder, accident w/o insurance and tons of other costly acts by illegals.
I do think it is a lot like gun control. The laws are there to deal with the problems caused by those who break the law but lawbreakers are released or let off with little or no incentive to not pick up where they left off.
One heck of a lot of illegals pop up on their own. They should be dealt with in a way that would deter them from coming back.
Any of them caught in criminal activity above illegal status should get some kind of harsh minimum sentence that doubles every time they are released and found this side of the border.
I do hope something positive comes from all of this.
Mike the crab
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
advocate groups say that the new laws will result in MORE CRIME. Uh...can't say I understand that.
Conventional wisdom is that illegal aliens who are the victim of a crime won't report it for fear of being discovered.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:47 AM
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Question Legal or Illegal that is the question!

What in Gods name makes the word illegal such a problem...Bank robbery is illegal, it is a federal crime and a state crime. Illegal is what it says illegal. One has to wonder what about, illegal, don't we understand. I sort of thought it meant the same. Spelled the same, means the same...Is the same....This PC **** is getting out of hand. Who cares what the President of Mexico thinks. If he could clean up his side of the border there would be a lot less problem. I'm not for going around checking on all the Mexicans already here but those that don't work and those who it is obvious are engaged in illegal activities should be arrested, charged, sentenced before sending back then if caught again put in the joint for a minimum of 20 years. California keeps complaining but they do nothing, sort of like they say they are hopelessly broke, ok drill off shore. O' we can't do that our elite citizens wouldn't like it...Wake up America, we are on a road that has a very bad end. Maybe we need to look at ourselves and ask "How did this happen" Maybe a few more registered voters need to VOTE.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:53 AM
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Not knowing the specific details here, the concept of making a new law saying we can now enforce existing law is really bewildering.
Lots of twisted "logic" pops up on this issue. If a cop sees a guy with a bale of weed on his shoulder and he's all wet from the waist down, and looks hispanic, he'll get fired for asking for a green card or I.D. When the Border Patrol beefed up the most popular places to cross, the illegals were "forced" to cross more desolate inhospitable routes, and lots of them died of thirst. Who did the illegal alien advocates blame for these deaths? The Border Patrol of course. You see, they made these poor people cross somewhere else when they cracked down on the easier places.
You know those little water oasis's people put up for the illegals to refresh themselves sneaking into this country? I was thinking obout going to them and replacing the water with salted peanuts and pretzels. But that would be mean.
This won't be a problem for long because Obama is making things so bad here we'll be sneaking over to Mexico for work and health care before long.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:55 AM
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As a retired INS agent all I have to say is that ALL of the Administrations and Congresses since 1965 (if not earlier) have been criminally complicit in ignoring their responsibilities. None of them ever wanted real enforcement, ever. Democrats get all warm and fuzzy about the downtrodden and Republicans see cheap, docile labor. Nobody gave a damn about the country, justice, or the common good, and nobody was ever willing to have an honest debate. What was once a manageable law enforcement problem has now been kicked down the road to a complete sordid cluster. It makes the "gun control" debate look positively adult.

Of all the players in this the only one I have any respect for is the illegal alien fleeing his own kleptocratic government. If I were in his shoes with his prospects, I would go north too. In comparison I have nothing but contempt for our lying so-called leaders. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe we were arresting the wrong people all along...

The real problem was always on the Potomac, not the Rio Grande.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:55 AM
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...working with the federal government to solve illegal immigration is like doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result...
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:56 AM
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IBTL-----------
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:15 PM
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What does Mexico have hanging over this country's head. Is it oil,cheap labor for company's building our products or the drugs this country likes to use?

This problem with the Illegals has been going on since R Reagan and maybe before that. Not one administration has done anything to try and stop this invasion of the southern boarder. George Bush would go over to Valenti Fox's house all the time. When a bunch of Citizen's wanted to stand guard with binoculars to report illegals coming into the country the were condemned by the media as a bunch of vigilantes.

What we need is another "Black Jack Pershing" down there for a year or so.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:16 PM
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My cousins in Arizona tell me the problem of illegals is totally out of control and they are afraid for their security and lives. People, my cousins are not gunners like we are , but rather a retired doctor and a retired Rn who have voluntered their time and service in third world countries and in fact anywhere they have been needed in the last 40 years. In short they are very caring people. My point is that at present, for the first time in their lives, they have bought defensive handguns and longarms and have taken and continue to take professional training in the use of same. It is terrible that our federal gov'nt has abandoned the protection of our borders and the citizens living there. I for one applaud Arizona for at least trying and if nothing else maybe it will force Washington to get off their collective asses and do what they took an oath to do.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Guano View Post
As a retired INS agent all I have to say is that ALL of the Administrations and Congresses since 1965 (if not earlier) have been criminally complicit in ignoring their responsibilities. None of them ever wanted real enforcement, ever. Democrats get all warm and fuzzy about the downtrodden and Republicans see cheap, docile labor. Nobody gave a damn about the country, justice, or the common good, and nobody was ever willing to have an honest debate. What was once a manageable law enforcement problem has now been kicked down the road to a complete sordid cluster. It makes the "gun control" debate look positively adult.

Of all the players in this the only one I have any respect for is the illegal alien fleeing his own kleptocratic government. If I were in his shoes with his prospects, I would go north too. In comparison I have nothing but contempt for our lying so-called leaders. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe we were arresting the wrong people all along...

The real problem was always on the Potomac, not the Rio Grande.
Very well put. Very well put indeed.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
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+1 cajun

This law won't survive a 4th amendment challenge. The police have no authority to stop and detain people without RAS of criminal activity.

Border Patrol already does just this. Because it makes illegal entry just that illegal, that makes it criminal activity.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:32 PM
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At first glance the approach smacks of Gestapo like tactics. Anyone caught however, will not wind up in a labor camp, but be deported. Whats wrong with that?
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:40 PM
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Amen! The problem is one of convenience and profit, and political power.....I loved the quote about the problem is on the Patomic not the Rio Grande!
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
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I'm thinking 3p today max for this one and the doctored Iraq video thread.

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Old 04-24-2010, 12:51 PM
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If all sources of employment for illegals were somehow eliminated, meaning not even the possibility of yard work etc.; and if all government and individual aid was eliminated, meaning no hospitalization, no food from the local church folks, etc.; and if birth to an illegal mother did not entail automatic citizenship; if all of those very politically controversial things came to pass and lasted through a couple of administrations I would hope that the desire to immigrate would at least abate.
Of course the desire to smuggle every kind of contraband including criminals across the border would still be there.

Gentlemen we have a border problem. Eliminating the desire to come here is not going to happen unless BHO is able turn our country into another Mexico. As it is and I certainly hope remains, this is the best country in the world for the average man/women/child to live. Literally hundreds of millions of people want to be here.

We either stop them at the border or let them take over. Meantime the folks in AZ are on the front line and think they are losing the war through indifference on the Federal Gov’s part.

If someone has a better suggestion for the embattled citizens of the border states, I have not yet heard what it might be.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:53 PM
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This legislation is perhaps best judged by its organized opposition, comprised mostly of the lunatic fringe left, religious leaders whose "flocks" consist of large percentages of illegals, and apologists for illegal immigration posing as "rights" advocates. The feds have only practiced catch-and-release enforcement, temporarily incarcerating illegals, then busing or flying them back, usually to Mexico, from where they return here again, often within a few days.

The bill requires cops to ascertain the immigration status of suspected illegals (heretofore, most municipalities had policies of pointedly ignoring immigration status) upon reasonable suspicion --- same standard as any other inquiry into possibly illegal activity ---- and makes it a state crime to be in the state illegally. The opposition has played the "race card" for all it's worth, but that's just bogus.

When someone pulled over for a traffic violation can't produce a driver's license, vehicle registration, proof of insurance, any other ID, and can't conduct the interview in English, I think you can be completely color-blind and still have reasonable suspicion that you may be dealing with an illegal immigrant.

Illegal immigrants cost Arizona lots of money and aggravation, and the feds have completely abdicated responsibility for effective enforcement and immigration policy. We're acting in self-defense.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:17 PM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
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What does Mexico have hanging over this country's head. Is it oil,cheap labor for company's building our products or the drugs this country likes to use?

This problem with the Illegals has been going on since R Reagan and maybe before that. Not one administration has done anything to try and stop this invasion of the southern boarder. George Bush would go over to Valenti Fox's house all the time. When a bunch of Citizen's wanted to stand guard with binoculars to report illegals coming into the country the were condemned by the media as a bunch of vigilantes.

What we need is another "Black Jack Pershing" down there for a year or so.
All administrations, regardless of parties are courting the Hispanic vote. Republicans are in fear of offending hispanics and making them run over to the Socialists, I mean the Democrats, where they are already mostly, and Democrats look at every guy wading across the Rio Grande as a new Democrat voter. That's why they want to give
em free healthcare and all the other goodies while we pay the tab. For these reasons we'll never see serious attempts to fix the problem from Washington. See what happens when one lil' ol' governor signs a bill saying it's ok to enforce current law? Obama starts threatening them in a way he'd never talk to Iran.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:39 PM
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In Monterey County, Salinas, & San Jose, the local, state, & feds, busted 37 known gang members (Nortenios & Surenios - rival gangs) in a huge sting for drugs, weapons, & outstanding warrants. These are the supposed "shot-callers" and include 6 women.
Of the 37 "alleged" gangsters, 22 are illegals. About half of the 37 will be tried in Federal court, the rest here. California states attorney Jerry Brown (surprising) has said good riddance to the ones that went with the feds and hopes he can separate and put to work the rest. Most will never see day-light again.
Monterey County does not actively search for illegals but, if arrested and having no documentation, will be turned over to ICE. This was a big step in the land of the liberals.
I believe the new Arizona law will also prevent some of the so called "sanctuary" policies in place, here in California.
Keep up the good work Arizona!

Bruce
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Damn Yankee View Post
What does Mexico have hanging over this country's head. Is it oil,cheap labor for company's building our products or the drugs this country likes to use?
Nothing really hanging over our heads- except our Govt did not want Mexico to side with the Latin American communist movement when that was a viable alternative.

Nowadays, the border functions like the safety valve on a pressure cooker. It keeps Mexico from exploding.
If we ever truly close the border, and all the money they send home or the hope of a better life here is no longer available, look for big troubles in Mexico.
It will make the Somalia of the 1990's look like a resort.
Think about it.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:54 PM
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"Nowadays, the border functions like the safety valve on a pressure cooker. It keeps Mexico from exploding.
If we ever truly close the border, and all the money they send home or the hope of a better life here is no longer available, look for big troubles in Mexico.
It will make the Somalia of the 1990's look like a resort.
Think about it."

In the short term, that might be bad, but in the long term, until the people of Mexico get more honest, less corrupt government, nothing will change, and most Mexicans will have no good reasons to stay in Mexico.

Mexico needs another revolution. The sooner the safety valve triggers that explosion, the better.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beach elvis View Post
Arizona makes it illegal to be illegal?
That one right there by itself has me scratching my head.
I mean, good for them but does one have to pass further legislation to make committing a crime MORE illegal?
For misdemeanor crimes the illegal has to be turned over to ICE. ICE does not prosecute, doesn't do anything. For example, while in Phoenix on vacation, I was rear ended by a car full of illegals. No plates, no insurance, no ID, no nothing. Cop wrote them a ticket and away they went to run into someone else. What would happen to you if you got in a car accident with no registration, no driver license and no insurance? Do you think you would drive away?

My daughter is a federal LEO on the east coast. No driver license, no fishing license, no ID so what. They don't speak English, or pretend not too which she stops them for a misdemeanor. She can do two things - spend most of her shift hauling them in, doing the paper work, booking them and then calling ICE. ICE then lets them go. The second thing she can do is walk away. What do you think she does.

She used to try booking them. After ICE releases them they immediately head to an immigrant advocacy group to file charges that they were abused.

The illegals know all this and play it for all it's worth.

The federal government will not enforce the law. So AZ has made it a state crime.

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Old 04-24-2010, 03:38 PM
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bring to army back from mid-east. put them on the border to shoot anyone trying to cross illegal. armor and helos also. if the drug cartels want to start shooting, they can find out first hand what the rest of the world already knows.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:09 PM
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The law is reactive, if those sneaking across our border were all coming here to be law abiding, contributing members of American society and lead productive lives this would likely never have been an issue in the first place.

This is not a new problem, Arizona has been dealing with it for decades and we have repeatedly asked for assistance from Washington, whose job it is, and have received nothing but lip service.

It is Arizona's schools, hospitals, social programs and economy that are suffering, it is Arizona's citizens being robbed, raped and murdered and it is Arizona’s taxpayers footing the bill for our clogged courts, jails and prisons.

This law is not just about illegal Mexicans; it is all persons here illegally. It just so happens that by geography the vast majority of those affected will be Mexican Nationals.

This is not just an Arizona problem it is an America problem. The majority of the drugs flowing into cities across America, with all of their associated ills, began their trip at an unprotected Arizona border crossing.

There was no existing Arizona state law making it illegal to be here illegally, there was only the federal law which they refuse to actively enforce. When local LE did identify someone as being here illegaly all they could do was turn them over to the feds who more often than not released them.

There is no provision in the law for LE to approach otherwise law abiding citizens and demand they present their papers, no matter what they look like. It comes into play when in the course of their duties they develop "reasonable suspicion" that an individual they are already engaged with may be in the country illegally. They are then required to determine their status in this country, if they refuse to do so they may be sued and can face civil penalties, no more sanctuary cities.

Is this new law the ideal solution, I think not.. but Arizona is at least determined to do SOMETHING. If the federal government has a better solution quit talking and roll it out. My 2 cents...SEAL THE BORDERS IMMEDIATLY, both of them, with troops if necessary. As LE comes into contact with illegal’s, identify them, if they are engaged in criminal activity or previously convicted felons deport them, if not identify them and require them to initiate a process of legalization to be completed in an appropriately determined time frame at their own cost, if they do not deport them.

Last edited by Arizona Commander; 04-24-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:23 PM
george minze george minze is offline
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Well said..........Can't elaborate on your post one bit.....A-one
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:53 PM
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There are times I do not like my own opinions so I am not going to get upset over others disagreeing with me on this.

Drug runners need shooting. Some people need shooting and that may not be politically correct but it is factual.

People coming over here to work hard for low wages makes good workers (No, I do not employ any). There have been many instances where illegals did work that Americans would not. Recently a company re-roofed my home with about 20 Mexicans. They tore off and replaced 5900 feet of roofing in six hours. Once the job was done, I could not find a piece of trash or roofing nails on the yard. Americans would have made a three day job of it.

Now that I have said that, Unions are taking away jobs here just as the illegals are doing. They make demands for more money, more benefits and then the workers are less productive. ATT set up a plant in Mexico just to get out of Union activity. GM sent plants overseas due to excessive union demands. Foreign workers in these plants are so happy to have these jobs they actually camp out so they can start early the next day. Not long back a person could quit high school and go to work at GM making $25 per hour. They were not skilled, just union. The last I heard, counting wages and benefits a GM worker was getting right at $80 per hr for unskilled labor. Even with that type money being earned, the workers fail to show up for reasons like it was raining and I did not want to get out of bed.

How is it that an illegal can take an American workers job and it raises a storm of protests but a Union can cause jobs to be sent overseas and people blame it on the company.

I went to college for EIGHT long years to learn my profession and illegals are not going to take it over. I do not need a union, not the police union, not the UAW, Teamsters or whichever because I do my job and do it well. I am where I need to be when needed no matter the weather or other things. I was operated on for malignant cancer and in the hospital for six days with tubes in me yet I had a court trial set that I had to be in and got the dr to let me out to attend the trial. Someone had to drive me to the courthouse, push me in there in a wheel chair and I testified from the chair. American union workers would be out 12 weeks and then complain they needed more time to heal. Unions protect the employees so much that many, not all, know their union rep phone number better than they know their own.

You do not hear illegals wanting a union. They want work and willing to do it.

I am not happy about the taxpayer cost for medical attention or such but they do work.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:14 PM
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GO ARIZONA - I'm proud of you. Just wish my state and a lot of others would do the same thing. Maybe we could kick start the Feds. It may just end up being a states rights arguement. I'm all for getting the Feds out of a lot of things - all they know is how to talk about it or tax it.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:19 PM
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Land mines Dammit!
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:23 PM
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GO ARIZONA - I'm proud of you. Just wish my state and a lot of others would do the same thing. Maybe we could kick start the Feds. It may just end up being a states rights arguement. I'm all for getting the Feds out of a lot of things - all they know is how to talk about it or tax it.
Is'nt it funny that the fed wants to take over everything else but ignore securing our borders, their # 1 primary responsibility!!
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:29 PM
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This is not a new problem, Arizona has been dealing with it for decades and we have repeatedly asked for assistance from Washington, whose job it is, and have received nothing but lip service.
We get from Washington what we send there. Arizona keeps sending Amnesty McCain to Washington.

I think the recent legislation passed in Arizona will likely serve little else but to rekindle the Bush/McCain Amnesty scheme. I would not be surprised if Obama is successful in doing so. McCain will likely say he's against it if it's before this coming election... while he's giggling behind closed doors. Be prepared for a flood of friends from south of the border.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:45 PM
Peter M. Eick Peter M. Eick is offline
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The problem I see is the porosity of the border. Arizona fixes the problem so we in Texas suffer as they come here. I doubt our govenor and legislators have the will to do the same thing but the poll I heard on the local news was 85% of the residents polled said they supported the same law here in Texas.

If we could just get NM and TX to go along with AZ and force them all to CA we would have the problem licked.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:48 PM
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People coming over here to work hard for low wages makes good workers (No, I do not employ any). There have been many instances where illegals did work that Americans would not. Recently a company re-roofed my home with about 20 Mexicans. They tore off and replaced 5900 feet of roofing in six hours. Once the job was done, I could not find a piece of trash or roofing nails on the yard. Americans would have made a three day job of it.
You are 100% correct. I used to build homes. But here is the issue. Roofing or (fill in the blank) is hard work... real hard work. You can get a hard worker from Guatemala for $6-8 bucks an hour, no benefits, no nothing. Falls down and gets hurt... adios amigo. What kind of American is going to seek that kind of work and compensation? I'll tell you what kind cuz my subs sent them out all the time. You get crack heads and thieves.

So yes, you can hire better quality workers from other countries to work for poverty wages in America. But in the end, all that does is raise the poverty rate and lower the standard of living for those who seek labor intensive employment.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:51 PM
Beemer-mark Beemer-mark is offline
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People coming over here to work hard for low wages makes good workers (No, I do not employ any). There have been many instances where illegals did work that Americans would not.
Illegals are not paid less, or much less. However they are way cheaper. To hire someone legally a typical company spends $3200 a year filling out federally paper work (not state). They pay unemployment taxes, medicare, social security, etc. etc. for legal workers. They must pay overtime and abide by 1000 federal, state and locals laws. How much of this do you think they do for illegals? It ain't about Unions. I live in a state with 12 % unemployment. The state is pre-dominantly non-union. The local skilled workers have to compete with the illegals. The illegals, and thier employers, are strictly cash only. So spare me.
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:23 PM
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We get from Washington what we send there. Arizona keeps sending Amnesty McCain to Washington.

I think the recent legislation passed in Arizona will likely serve little else but to rekindle the Bush/McCain Amnesty scheme. I would not be surprised if Obama is successful in doing so. McCain will likely say he's against it if it's before this coming election... while he's giggling behind closed doors. Be prepared for a flood of friends from south of the border.
I too consider McCain to be part of the problem, once again Arizona had to do something, even if it is wrong. At the very least this will ratchet up the debate and with any hope force the fed to do SOMETHING.
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:30 PM
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Not to contribute to 'thread drift'....

A few years ago I had an old shed that my INSURANCE company insisted be demolished or my rate would go up.

Granted it was ready to fall down anyway.

Simple job, a little pick up work; called the high school.
No deal, and the bureaucrat sounded nearly panicked when I asked if any after-school workers wanted to make a buck. Talk about liability etc.

I contacted the local employment office, and no one was interested in a day labor job.

I was told I couldn't take it down because I was "not a licensed contractor" [another BS issue]

The fire department was not interested in it as a trainer-fire site due to overhanging trees, another 'liability' issue.

I was disabled at the time & couldn't do the work myself.

I had spent 3 days trying to give someone a job.

A tree-farm buddy had a crew that was willing. No papers. I didn't hire.

Just by chance on the way out to the mailbox, a guy with a small yarder with a finger joint on it was driving by. We got together, he made a deal with me, and it was all down & stuffed in a large dumpster in about 2 hours.

So while I had passed up chance to hire non-documented workers, they were nearly the only choice available.

Constrains by the insurance industry, school policy, state employment office, various levels of attorneys & politicians, all conspiring to make doing a basic job impossible. How often does that affect how 'big' business has to do things?
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:32 PM
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To me the best thing to come out of the AZ legislation is the fear in Washington DC where the polical elites are wondering if they are loosing control of the American voter.

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Old 04-24-2010, 07:59 PM
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Illegal is illegal, it's a simple concept that Washington doesn't seem to be able to grasp.

I'm all for Arizona taking steps to secure their border and curb crime in their state, particularly when the feds aren't bothering to. By purging the illegals Arizona will reduce it's costs for welfare, education, and health care. In addition, if they work to make Arizona a low tax burden, business friendly State while they're cleaning up the illegal immigrant mess they will enjoy an influx of new LEGAL residents and the prosperity that they'll bring. I hope the rest of the border States and then the rest of the country follow their lead.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:45 PM
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Well stated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Arizona Commander View Post
The law is reactive, if those sneaking across our border were all coming here to be law abiding, contributing members of American society and lead productive lives this would likely never have been an issue in the first place.

This is not a new problem, Arizona has been dealing with it for decades and we have repeatedly asked for assistance from Washington, whose job it is, and have received nothing but lip service.

It is Arizona's schools, hospitals, social programs and economy that are suffering, it is Arizona's citizens being robbed, raped and murdered and it is Arizona’s taxpayers footing the bill for our clogged courts, jails and prisons.

This law is not just about illegal Mexicans; it is all persons here illegally. It just so happens that by geography the vast majority of those affected will be Mexican Nationals.

This is not just an Arizona problem it is an America problem. The majority of the drugs flowing into cities across America, with all of their associated ills, began their trip at an unprotected Arizona border crossing.

There was no existing Arizona state law making it illegal to be here illegally, there was only the federal law which they refuse to actively enforce. When local LE did identify someone as being here illegaly all they could do was turn them over to the feds who more often than not released them.

There is no provision in the law for LE to approach otherwise law abiding citizens and demand they present their papers, no matter what they look like. It comes into play when in the course of their duties they develop "reasonable suspicion" that an individual they are already engaged with may be in the country illegally. They are then required to determine their status in this country, if they refuse to do so they may be sued and can face civil penalties, no more sanctuary cities.

Is this new law the ideal solution, I think not.. but Arizona is at least determined to do SOMETHING. If the federal government has a better solution quit talking and roll it out. My 2 cents...SEAL THE BORDERS IMMEDIATLY, both of them, with troops if necessary. As LE comes into contact with illegal’s, identify them, if they are engaged in criminal activity or previously convicted felons deport them, if not identify them and require them to initiate a process of legalization to be completed in an appropriately determined time frame at their own cost, if they do not deport them.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:37 PM
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Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert  
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Another day here in wonderful southern Arizona. Border Patrol caught 15 of 18 illegals. They were just doing the job US citizens wouldn't do, breaking and entering.

I got a call from the BP canine handler, the other 3 were found just south of the homestead.

My wife opened the gate for me after coming home from the annual required Wildland fire refresher course. M66 in hand.

What part of protecting the border and its citizens doesn't DC understand.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:27 PM
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Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert Am I missing missing the mexican boat here? DEPUTY SHOT in Desert  
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So long as the money sent home to mexico by the illegals remains the largest single source of income for Mexico the problem will never go away.

It is interesting how Mexico treats the Guatamalans (and others from Central and South America), trying to enter Mexico. They are arrested detained and/or shipped back immediately.

John McCain: I've always supported amnesty but now that I am running against a conservative this new law sounds good to me and I never really considered myself a maverick...makes me want to vomit!

The best thing about the new law for me is that it is a very loud and clear wake up call for Washington. For years the feds have done nothing to deal with the problem so Arizona steps up. It is poorly written, nearly impossible to enforce and will be in court until the cows come home but at least some one is trying to do something.

Questions about "illegal", see your nearest dictionary. (o; Rant off...for now.
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