I was looking at Nighthawk Custom and Wilson Combat. What makes these 1911s so pricey? Are they any better than what you would find from S & W or Kimber?

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Save a cow, eat a vegetarian.

Yep...short answer...

But that depends on what your using the gun for.... They are superior as target guns, race guns, competition guns...

For a defensive gun...Meh! Give me a 1911 milspec that will feed anything, is a bit loose, cycle's everytime, never fails to feed, stovepipes, or has mag problems...

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Non gratum anus rodentum

I bought a Metro Arms Tactical "American Classic II" a short time ago. It's got tons of great features that you would normally pay extra for, and is very well made. Nice polished blued finish, high precision slide to frame fit, etc. These can be had for about $440 on Gunbroker, and seem to me to be one of the best deals out there in 1911's. Check one out and see what ya think, Shoo

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"Get Hammered By a Shooboy!!"

You want to see really pricey 1911s and such, forget Nighthawk and Wilson, and check out the work from Ted Yost and compratriots at Heirloom Precision in Tempe, AZ --- way into the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" category... I don't look there often, as I find it induces drooling...

Save yourself a lot of money and buy a Dan Wesson.

I'm serious.

To OP: Yes

Fit and finish not to be compared to standard production guns.

Value? Not to the average HD and fun range shooter.

My $.02 worth.

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Incoming fire has right of way

I think its the same with plenty of other things out there as well since this is a "gun" forum I'll use Rifles for example ...I have plenty some cheap and some really expensive ...you pay for quality and accuracy as well....Good ole 700 Remmy will shoot with the best of them but let someone work and massage on it and put it in the 3k+ catagory it will consistantly shoot better and will feel better doing it.

I've had the Wilsons,Brown,Nighthawk and they are super nice but I didnt "need" one....If I was doing something other than plinking or carrying one I'd kept them....I think the mid line of 1911s are just fine for most...and my personal favortie is the Smith ...I think for the money they are hard to beat...second would be Detonics

I received my Volkmann Custom Combatant Carry 1911 a couple of months ago and I can say that it is well worth it. Accuracy is incredible. Feeds anything. Looks like a million bucks. I wouldn't trade it for a boxcar load of Kimbers, Springers, S&W, Colt, Para, etc.

I have an SV-Infinity this pistol is a precision machine.
For example; the barrel (Schuemann)
Gain Twist rifling
Variable width lands
Optimum Feeding Angle curved ramp
Special chamber entrance chamfer
Forcing-Cone fluting
Golden Bronze colored Titanium Nitride finish (an Infinity ® exclusive)

That’s just the barrel the rest has the same attention to detail.
Does this have anything to do with a self-defense gun?
Absolutely not! What would I do if I had to use it self-defense and the police took it as evidence?
It is, I think like a beautifully engraved Model 44, it is a very fine machine which someone has done everything in his power to perfect.
Oh yes it shoots too.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

get yourself a used Colt for 500$ and send it in for their model O package... nite sights, flared port, springs, rounding of corners and general tune up. 600$

or a 3k custom

when you talk about Les Baer, Nighthawk Customs, Wilson Combat you are talking about guns that the fit and finish is more like a dream than physically possible. the rails have NO movement, the finish is totally unblemished and you can fire rounds 25yrds down range and put them in a quarter everytime. these guns are also custom meaning YOU design the specs on how they are built these guns are truly unbelievable. However for self and home defense I recommend a mid grade gun such as a high end Springfield or a Kimber of some sort

50 years experience has convinced me that if a 1911 is reliable with a chosen load and has decent sights and trigger, it's good. I went through Gunsite with a GI gun like that, and currently shoot a similar SA Mil-Spec. Owned a series 70 Gold Cup that was pretty but no more serviceable, and had Yost work over a LW Commander for me. It never ran right, and I dumped it.

Actually some of the best 1911 shooting I ever saw was a pair of force Recon Marines at Gunsite with scruffy old GI guns. A really cynical person would offer a comparison between guns and women at this point...

Just because it has a big price tag doesn't make it better. It just gives the snobs something to brag about. Give me a plain Jane 1911 any day. They will even feed and function with original magazines.

I had lunch with JoniLynn one day and she almost persuaded me to buy a Les Baer that was guaranteed to shoot 2" groups, and even offered to hook me up with her salesguy. I swear I must have had a complete mental block when she said how much one was because I was totally blown away when I saw the website!

Thanks, Lynnie, thanks.

I have a lot of guns, both handguns and long guns. All but one are name brand guns. Most are factory models. Some are custom guns from Kimber, Clark and others. One was virtually made for me by a machine shop.

Having set the background, yes a quality gun is worth the price but a person would have to shoot a lot to enjoy the benefits of a smoother action, improved accuracy or feel.

I can shoot an off the shelf S&W a few hundred rounds to see how the accuracy runs and can compensate to get the same accuracy of a custom. The custom will have less recoil, better feel or such but then you would only appreciate that if you shoot almost daily or shoot competition.

You will find people will tell you to get the brand gun they have because it cannot be beat. Yes it can be beat. Just ask the next person what is the best gun to own.

The actual fact is a man needs to have at least one thing to please him in his life. A high end or custom gun is a lot cheaper to buy and own than a trophy wife. It will also last longer and be less trouble.,

I built a few 1911s a long time ago, before every nickle and dime manufacturer got onto the gravy train. Most of the super custom models are a waste of money and effort. But then most of the off the shelf mass productiion models are junk now too.

If I were to buy one now, I'd get a cheap one that is made to mil-spec and rebuild it. Using only the bells and whistles that are really necessary and that I really wanted or needed. It's hard to find good parts now that aren't cast, in one way or another, so I drifted away from them.

The difference between a G.I. spec 1911 and a custom target .45 is about like the difference between a Yugo and a Aston Martin DB8! They both provide transportation, but in vastly different ways.

As the others have already said, YES!

But, that depends on what you intend to use it for. The reason to buy the expensive custom gun is for competition use. I use mine for Bullseye, which requires 50 yard accuracy.

If the intent primarily defensive in the 7-10 yard range, then no, you are wasting your money. Most any pistol will have adequate accuracy at that distance.

I don't have a S&W, but do have a Kimber Supermatch. It is very accurate, but it is actually more expensive than some custom guns, which surprised me.

Some of the custom makers have "Hardball" models, which are designed for DCM service matches. The rules require a near - service pistol, without all the "extras" like mag wells, beaver tails, ambidextrous safeties, etc.

If you are interested in custom, this is the one to get. They are every bit as accurate as the high-end wadcutter guns, but you aren't paying for all the extra junk.

The last gun I got is a hardball gun, it was less expensive than my Kimber, and is a better gun. It is made from all tool-steel parts (no MIM), is a pure 1911A1 design (no Swartz safety), and doesn't have all the junk, which I prefer.

It is also absolutely reliable. I've had it for close to 2 years now, have put several 1000 rounds through it, and it has had no malfunctions of any kind.

A 1911 doesn't have to be loose to be reliable, it has to be built correctly.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Having owned custom 1911's back in my IPSC days and having owned sundry and various 1911's and clones over the last 40 years, my personal take is the price is not commensurate with what you get.

The fine line that these builders strive to straddle is maximum reliability while achieving match grade accuracy- and that is a very fine line since the two goals often work against each other in practice.

Keep in mind that match grade accuracy is the difference in a custom 1911 shooting a 2" group at 50 yards out of a Ransom Rest verses a production gun that only shoots a 3-to-4 inch group when machine rested. Whether or not your skills are up to wringing that extra smidge of accuracy out of such a gun in actual competition or a fight for your life kind of puts that into perspective. And as with all firearms, the load/ammunition used has as much to do with that accuracy as the gun, and there's another variable to consider since the 'match' ammo you might use isn't always the best choice for applications like self defense.

A Bullseye shooter (NRA Conventional Pistol to you purists) told me years ago concerning such, "when I do my part and hold the sites in a '9-ring wobble' at 50 yards when I pull the trigger, I don't want an '8'. "

What do you want to do with it and what are you willing to spend when the reality is that once you get past a certain dollar amount you are paying increasingly more for each increasingly smaller advantage ? And when you consider the 'niceties' of custom machine work and finish, what we're talking about here is paying for someone's time and handwork - not necessarily a 'better' weapon, just a better looking one.

In a purely economic sense custom guns are not worth what we pay for them but the aesthetics and the desire for something 'out of the ordinary' or 'elite' makes it worth it to some. I went through my competition years spending a bit more on custom work but decided in the long run an 'upgrade package' of an additional $1,500 or whatever didn't give me a significantly better gun than my commercial Colt 1911's in pretty much stock configuration.

YMMV

That sums things up pretty well. Is there any actual need for a 1.5"/50-yard 1911 for 99% of us? Probably not. I can't even see well enough to use a gun like that, much less have the ability to hold and squeeze up to its capabilities.

On the other hand, poor shooting is always a frustration to a real hobbyist. I was told many years ago by a good friend and expert skeet shooter that the last thing you want is to have any doubts about your equipment - gun or ammunition. You gain nothing saving a few cents per shell by economizing in your reloading if you don't know why you consistently shoot 24s. When there is just no doubt about these two things, then...

This is where a fancy gun comes into play, for me. I admit I can't shoot up to the gun's capability, but when I press the trigger on my Les Baer and the shot goes off into la-la land, there is NO DOUBT in my mind who can be blamed. It's not Les Baer and it's not Federal.

My every day carry is a Wilson CQB compact. It was super expensive, but IMO it was the smartest gun purchase I've ever made.

I can understand why someone would want to own one of these "super expensive" 1911s, and I know that some people who shoot competitively need them to be able to compete at a higher level.

For me, though, my 1943 manufactured GI Colt and Norinco "Model of the 1911" are perfect. They both feed hardball from just about any magazine without a hitch. Combat accuracy is well within my personal limits. I would say either of them will shoot into six inches or less at twenty yards. Probably much better than that. I am actually in the market for another Nork. I think they might be the biggest bargain out there in a no-frills 1911. All forged steel parts. Too bad they stopped importing them.

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Georgia On My Mind

Like a fine pool cue, my game doesn't improve more than 10% using something that costs 500% more. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Okay...........sorry. They are a bit addictive and I enjoy mine tremendously. My LB 38 Super is extremely accurate and 100% reliable as is my LB in 45acp. They don't have the extra attention spent on polish that some do but they are a good gun for the money in their price range. Very few complaints are heard from LB owners as compared to some others.
I hope to be back to shooting in about a year or so, until then the guns will be collecting cobwebs.

(& they are guaranteed to have shot a 1.5" or less group at 50 yards)

This what my Premier 2 in 38 Super looked like before I changed grips and added a S&A magwell.

I don't see much way for that group to be improved upon.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

Having spent many long nights in Cinc poop (pool?) emporiums, I will say that 10% better will often make one the best in the house. Hard to put a price on that.

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Incoming fire has right of way

Having a high precision and match grade accurate gun might actually make it a worse defensive weapon, since high grade accuracy requires tight tolerances which can cause a gun to jam if it gets dropped in the dirt or mud. I love the 1911 but its kinda sad to me how Glock can make a cheap and pretty accurate gun that is very reliable whether or not it is clean or dirty. There are probably some out of the box 1911s that meet that criteria, but I don't know which ones.

If the world, as we know it, ended tomorrow and I was give a choice of a .45 acp it would probably be a Glock or Sig. They are kind of like that Bunny - just keep going.

However, everyone who shoots my Wilson or Sig Sport Stock REALLY likes them ALOT. And they all shoot significantly better groups with the expensive guns. The workmanship and fit are wonderful.

I guess it gets down to personal preference and finances. An apartment in the city might be all we need, but that moutain side cabin is real nice.

I'm serious when I say they are addicting.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

joni, that isn't even nice, now I am drooling all over my keyboard! all I can afford is my kimber gold match but I will tell you what I am REALLY happy with how it has performed

Sorry.
I bought this one just because it's different. It won't run on my wadcutter load but it's cool just becuase of what it is.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

holy **** that is the LH safari! What other obscure and beautiful 1911's have you been hiding??

I called them about it and was told it's one of about 52 made. I was just walking through a gun show and spotted it. It was priced attractively so it got adopted. It appeared to be unfired since new when I got it but I took care of that pretty quickly.
I'm left handed but find using a true leftie gun quite awkward after getting used to my regular 1911's with ambi safties on them.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

I would have lost my mind the cheapest one I have seen has gone for 2400, however I am not a lefty but I love my 1911's

Not obsure but nice anyway is this custom Colt series 70 Gov't by Bob Rodgers.

and another that he fixed after someone else built it. Extremely scary accurate.

Consecutive Colt Gunsite's.

and a rock river arms


I do have a 1911 addiction. Especially if it's a Colt or Les Baer.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

[QUOTE=Joni_Lynn;135456282]I'm serious when I say they are addicting.

Joni Lynn, Lawdy Mercy, what are you trying to do to us poor, sniveling make-believe collectors and accumulators? Those are some seriously beautiful pieces of fine art!

Just looking at the beauty of those guns and disregarding the obviously inherent high-performance capability answers the OP's question: a resounding "Yes, they are better." Why? "Just look at them."

I stand in awe!

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Georgia On My Mind

Like sniper rifle accurate. Amazing!

I am very attached to my Colt's and these two, a Special Combat Gov't in hard chrome and a WW1 replica are the nicest fit and most accurate 1911's I've seen come out of Colt in the last 40 or so years.


However when compared to a Les Baer or other gun of about the same quality they don't measure up. Especially when shooting at small targets at 35 to 50 yards or further.
It's not that any of them are bad guns, it's just a matter of perspective. As long as the one you have makes you happy, that's all that counts.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

What primarily makes 'em pricey is the amount of labor put into them by the best 1911 'smiths out there. Whether they are worth it or not depends on how you feel about it. Some guys are happy with a Toyota, and other guys will buy a Porsche. Both are good for getting to where you want to go.

Anyway, here's my high end 1911, a Wilson Combat Supergrade:











Holster by Mitch Rosen.

I have a large number of 1911's and was happy with them all until I had the opportunity to shoot a Les Baer Thunder Ranch 1911 .45ACP. I understand why Joni likes them. It is scary accurate and although more expensive than a Colt or Kimber, it is well worth the extra cost for the accurate groups that you can shoot with it. My Les Baer T.R. was under $2,000 and one of the best values in a custom 1911 today. It will do anything that a more expensive 1911 will do. I have never had a FTF or FTE in it and it shoots ragged tight groups everytime. I carry it on-duty and although I like my other 1911's, the Les Baer is the one I will always pick up first....I have a Kimber Super Match II, a Colt Gold Cup, a Novak Custom 1911 Commander and an Armand Swenson Custom 1911 Commander but hands down the Les Baer shoots the best.....

Not one of the "super expensive" 1911's but I like it. Alex Hamilton (Ten-Ring Precision) fixed up my Kimber Pro Carry II with an Ed Brown grip safety, Ed Brown bobtail MSH with fish scales, fish scaling of the front strap and refinished the lower with flat light gray TR Gun Kote.
Larry Davidson Horned Lizards that are "N-between" thin and standard thickness, and leather by D.M. Bullard.

I completely understand now about high end 1911s.
When I held this one ,I couldn't say no.
I've since come to find it was built by Ed Brown for the original owner.
The cost then was $2600.

In my eyes it is the perfect 1911 ,and would be the last I'll ever
let go of.




















Take care , Allen

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NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

Allen,

Jules and I used to live in Wolcott...and I know the other town where the parts were made, used to live there too...

I'm making a trip this Summer back to Mecca....


Steve

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Non gratum anus rodentum

I have both S&W Performance Center 1911s and Wilson 1911s. Both are wonderful products ... I'm keeping all of mine. You get your money's worth on both. With S&W, it is a "best buy" on a high quality firearm that will perform for a lifetime with good care. With Wilson, especially their Supergrade line, you're getting an extraordinarily well-made and hand-crafted set of parts (e.g., small components fabricated from bar-stock) and assembly. The price is justified, but this is not the same as saying it makes sense for everyone. No experience with Nighthawk, which has a history connected to ex-Wilson employees. I would prefer an original, as represented by S&W or Wilson. S&W is the place to go for revolvers ... which makes revolver purchasing decisions really easy.

One of my biggest disappointments was a Night Hawk bobtail commander.....about2500. O' it shot great, loved the trigger, just one of those things you knew you liked right at first. Problem the sharp checkering on the front strap of the grip had not been finished correctly so the last row of checkering was exposed like a very sharp file. I noticed this as I was shooting from holster draw and saw the blood running down my arm. shooting wise I had only admiration. I sent it back and they were very gracious and said it would be fixed. I waited and waited and waited, and then it came back problem solved. Except there very tough finish was missing on the back strop about 1/8 of a inch by 1 inch. Not acceptable on a returned gun. I contacted them and sent it back again and the same wait but longer. I again talked to them they said they were running behind due to the shot show. Well 2500 was a lot to me and to be put on the back burner was about it. I took it to the dealer and eventually got my money back. with an apology. I was so enthused at first then I got disappointed with them and more disappointed with my self. I felt stupid for buying in the first place. I have had Novak and Actions by(T) do work for me without a hitch, and for a lot less as they knew it was a duty gun. No exuses and if they ran into a hold up you were told right away. I have know both of them for years and never had anything but good honest work done. They are sort of like family. Moral of this story....Go where you know the people and the work and stop shopping around for every new thing out there. New companies no matter how good they can be and how talented the workmanship have other new business problems. Leave with the gal you took to the dance as the old saying goes. I learned a valuable lesson by suffering a big disappointment. I'm sure Night Hawk will get it right as the designs and basic workmanship was good, but quality control and dedication to past buyers was still in doubt. to bad I'm sure a nice product. But 2500 was a lot of money to me and I had to admit it was my impulse that really was the culprit..Shame on them for in-attention but better yet shame on me for shopping around when I was happy with those I came with.....You are never to old to learn...I hope...

Love those grip...Info please....Very nice hoslter and belt!.George

They are the gray and black “Horned Lizards” from Larry Davidson. He cut these in between regular and slim line grip thickness. He is very easy to work with.

http://www.davidsonknives.com/grips/grips.htm

Leather is from David Bullard.

Gun Leather, Concealment and Cowboy holsters, Azle, TX.

Are they really that good?

Yes, especially if they are a Baer!

I have a custom Baer 10mm and a DW 10mm that was one fo the original 150 RZ's. The difference is night and day. What my Baer will do a 50 yrds, my DW does at 50 ft.



Here is the factory 50 yrds and 50 ft targets respectively.

The quality in a Baer custom gun is right up there with my SIG 210's. It really is nice.

I am very glad I blew the money when I did as I know have something one of a kind and unique.

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SWCA 1646

I totally agree .3 GUYS AT THE GUN CLUB where I'm A MEMBER (PITTSBURGH) have D.W.'s--------Quality and accurate.

I have the 5" DW 1911 on my list of wants, just haven't seen the one (haven't seen any) to be adopted yet.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

This^^^^^


but to answer your question....they are heads and shoulders above what you mentioned. you have to see them in person to understand....


or you can go the route of buying a solid base and building it into a super expensive 1911.... my Dan Wesson customized by Chuck Rogers in AZ

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God Bless Our Troops.