question about the m1 carbine

[mg357]

Dear Smith and Wesson Forum i have a military question about the M1 Carbine. What would be the basic combat load for an infantryman carrying an M1 Carbine? any and all help in this question would be greatly appreciated sincerely mg357 a proud member of the smith and wesson forum.

[jimmyj]

M1 Carbine with a 30 round magazine plus two 15 round magazines in a pouch on the butt stock.
In the Korea War (police action) M2 Carbines users there was a belt pouch that held several 30 round magazines.
Carbine users had the weapons until they found a Garand, BAR, Thompson, or M3 that wasn't attached to someone's person and then they were no longer Carbine users.
Jimmy

[amd6547]

Plenty of people liked the M1 carbine...even in Korea. I knew a Cleveland police officer who fought at the chosin reservoir. As a police officer, he served during the race riots Cleveland in the 1960's. He described those as open war in the streets. He could have chosen any of several longarms...shotgun, lever 30-30, remington 30-06 pump...he chose an M1 Carbine, which he kept loaded at home for the rest of his life.
In WWII, 30rd mags did not appear till the very end, and only in very limited amounts.
The basic combat load would have been the two 15rd mags on the stock, one in the weapon, and eight or more on the belt. Also, 30 carbine ammo was loaded onto 10rd strip clips in bandoleers in spam cans. I would think the averge grunt would have carried a bando or two.
This is the CMP Inland M1 Carbine I keep handy as my favored HD longarm.

[MMA10mm]

Still working on the book?

If it's WWII, only 15-rd magazines were available until very, very late in the war. The M-2 and the 30-rd mags that came with it were not fielded until 1945, and very few made it to actual combat before hostilities ended...

So, for a basic load-out...

The M1 Carbine was intended for support troops to replace the pistol with a lightweight, more-capable rifle-type weapon. Because of shortages of other rifles, it's quick-reloading with the detachable magazines, it's lightweight, it's rapid-fire capability, and it's low recoil, it crept into the combat units and became pretty popular there. Initially, it was only issued to officers in the combat units, but by the end of the war somewhere close to 50% of the troops had them.

As far as combat load-out, it was somewhat up to the person and what they could get. The rear-area troops who were issued them for only a "when needed" type weapon generally only had a few of the 15-rd. magazines. (There's a snap on the front left side of the WWII web belt that is designed to attach ONE double-magazine pouch for either the carbine or the M1911 pistol, and I think that's what the Army felt was "sufficient" for a rear-echelon troop.)

Combat troops would have found that very insufficient, and would have added more pouches on their web belt, probably as many as they could scrounge. I'd say, for weight-purposes, a total of 4-6 double-mag pouches would be max. This gives you twelve 15-rd magazines, or 180 rounds on your web belt. That's quite a bit, and would be quite heavy, but workable.

Now somewhere along the line, some smart GI figured out that a double mag pouch could be slid down the buttstock and two mags could be kept on the rifle. Not sure when this really took off, but I've seen a few WWII pictures of it, and MANY Korean War pictures of this - it was practically a standard-practice by Korea.

Another magazine in the weapon, and we're up to a total of FIFTEEN 15-rd magazine, which bumps you up to 225 rounds. That would be really heavy, and I'd say the max a GI would want to carry into combat. There may have been situations when they carried more, such as Merrill's Marauders in Burma.

[bennettfam]

I'm pretty sure the dbl mag pouch on the stock is made for that location. Carbines needed more ammo supplied than the M1 due to the round's ineffectiveness I've heard. In Korea some GIs loved carrying the little carbine until they found the bullets wouldn't penetrate the Chinese bamboo body armor and thick winter clothing. Then the carbines were tossed away in favor of an M1 at first opportunity. One shot, one kill with the Garand!

[John Frederick Bell]

Originally Posted by bennettfam

I'm pretty sure the dbl mag pouch on the stock is made for that location.

Sir,

I have examples of both types in my possession. The two pocket pouch that fits over the stock was originally designed to be worn on the belt, as with the similar pouch for the .45 pistol magazines. If you look on the back of an original there should be a metal button dead center. Looking at an older pistol belt, you should also see a corresponding button on the left side of the belt, usually not more than a couple of inches from the buckle.

Early pouches have a much larger gap between the back of the pouch compartments and the backing of the unit itself. Later models had two bands and no button and would fit the belt only. Also, eyelets were added to the bottom of the pouch in transition.

Presumably this has something to do with the switch from M1936 web gear to M1952 and M1956, which I believe deleted the snap button from the pistol belt.

Also, I don't know anything about the Chinese wearing any kind of body armor, but I've heard from a couple of friends who were in Korea that the communists' quilted tunics had a tendency to absorb water and freeze which - while it wouldn't stop a carbine bullet - would slow it down some. Most of the complaints I've heard regarding the stopping power of the .30 Carbine have to do with winter engagements. By all accounts it seemed to perform just fine during the summer months.

[Faulkner]

Originally Posted by bennettfam

I'm pretty sure the dbl mag pouch on the stock is made for that location. Carbines needed more ammo supplied than the M1 due to the round's ineffectiveness I've heard. In Korea some GIs loved carrying the little carbine until they found the bullets wouldn't penetrate the Chinese bamboo body armor and thick winter clothing. Then the carbines were tossed away in favor of an M1 at first opportunity. One shot, one kill with the Garand!

Respectfully, and I don't mean to be rude, but your entire post is old wife's tales.

There is a lot of research material readily available as well as several books on the topic which contradict you're observations, but in short:

- The double magazine pouch was NOT designed to fit over the stock. The earlier magazines pouches would indeed fit over the stock and it was first "discovered" by enterprising GI's. Later, two strap pouches, would not fit over the stock.

- It has been demonstrated that the .30 carbine round does indeed penetrate body armor of that period and thick winter clothing at ranges the .30 carbine was designed for. I have also personally tested the .30 carbine round on modern ballistic vests and it easily penetrates Level II and IIa which is commonly utilized by LEO's today.

- It is generally accepted that one of the problems with the carbine in Korea was the adaptation of the M2 (select fire) carbine. It was utilized as a main battlefield rifle which it was never designed for and at battlefield ranges over 300 yards the M1 rifle will absolutely outperform the .30 carbine. Additionally, the M2 is difficult to control in full auto mode, much more so than Thompsons and M3 grease guns. It's not that the .30 carbine is necessarily a weak round, but it was not designed to replace the M1 rifle yet it was issued as such.

[mkk41]

Why is it that the M-1 carbines 110gr FMJ bullet at approx.2000fps is rumored to have bounced off frozen Commie overcoats , while the PPSh and TT-33s 7.62x25 Tokerov round with it's 86gr FMJ @ 1400fps was regarded as such a superior penetrator?

[Matt C.]

Originally Posted by bennettfam

I'm pretty sure the dbl mag pouch on the stock is made for that location. Carbines needed more ammo supplied than the M1 due to the round's ineffectiveness I've heard. In Korea some GIs loved carrying the little carbine until they found the bullets wouldn't penetrate the Chinese bamboo body armor and thick winter clothing. Then the carbines were tossed away in favor of an M1 at first opportunity. One shot, one kill with the Garand!

The Box O' Truth #36 - Frozen Clothing And The Box O' Truth - Page 1

[walnutred]

In John Georges "Shots Fired In Anger" he carried a M1 Carbine, by choice, throughout the Pacific campaign. His comment on the M1's alleged ineffectiveness was "The carbine would consistently hit and penetrate a Japanese helmet at 100 yards, which was all I needed in a weapon." Roughly paraphrased of course. The carbine seems to be one of those firearms you hate or love. My dad was issued one in the Pacific during WW2 and didn't care for it. My Brother was issued a folding stock M2 in Vietnam and always spoke highly of it.

[amd6547]

I am certain that there is some kernal of truth regarding problems with the 30 carbine, mainly from the book "Last Stand of Fox Company", in which it was said that at one point in the battle, word was passed "men with carbines, aim for the head". The cold was so bitter that even the great Garand, BAR, and Browning machine guns were often reduced to single shots. Many of the Chinese assault troops did wear homespun woven armor, as well as pre-tied tornequets. They were also often drugged.
Much of the ammo used was WWII surplus...ammo that spent years in Pacific theater ship holds and hot warehouses.

[Joe Kent]

Gentlemen, also there is a very real possibility that a lot of reds kept coming , not because of the thirty carbine's lack of power but because of poor marksmanship on the part of US troops. It takes a cool head to shoot X's in the heat of battle.

[BUFF]

The barber that cut my hair from about 10 years of age until he retired when I was about 27, fought in Korea in the Marine Corps. Bud was wounded at Chosin and nearly froze to death on a stretcher as they withdrew. He used to show some of us kids the scars on his stomach. If I remember, he had about 3 in a roughly horizontal row just above his navel. He thought he had been hit by a "Chinese buzz gun" (he used another word instead of "Chinese"). He said that if it had been a full power rifle, he would have been killed outright.

Bud also said that the .30 Carbine sometimes failed to penetrate the thick quilted Chinese winter clothing. He said that sometimes the Chinese soldiers would fall down when hit but get back up and continue the advance until hit with a Garand or machine gun.

I have always believed Bud believed what he was saying.

Bud was into guns and served as a reserve deputy with our local sheriffs office. I remember asking his advice when I was looking to buy my first deer rifle. A good friend was planning on using his father's .30 Carbine and I asked Bud if I should get one. He scoffed and said it was a good rabbit gun but that was about it. That's when he told me about the Chinese clothing/.30 Carbine thing.

[bennettfam]

Wow, my first flame-producing post! I feel like one of the guys now. I made an error: it wasn't bamboo body armor (wrong century) but tightly woven goat hair or some such poor-man's kevlar. I'm sure there is some truth in both sides of this topic. My apologies to mg357 if I have hijacked your post, but I am enjoying reading these replies, and learning.

[jimmyj]

Good Morning:
I hadn't heard the "Body Armor" story before. Those "Orient Gentlemen" main weapon was "Manpower". Lots and Lots of "Manpower".
Several instants where only every third or fourth soldier had a firearm
in a regiment. When the "Lucky " soldier went down, a weaponless buddy would pick up the weapon and continue on. Some were armed with 1903 Springfields and a few with Thompsons and M3 SMGs.
How "They" came by these weapons is up for question.
Jimmy

[ACP230]

John George was a competitive rifle shot before going to war. In his book he talks about "calling his shots" while evading Japanese troops who were trying to flank him on a jungle trail. If you can shoot like that you can probably get away with a lighter caliber rifle too.

I mentioned John George and his feelings about the carbine in a letter to Col. Jeff Cooper. The Col. was not impressed.

[amd6547]

Yes, many say "oh, they just missed'...but, in the book I mentioned, the fighting was eye to eye. during lulls in the fighting, they even conducted post mortem on dead chinese. That was when the body armor was found, and when the word was passed for "men with carbines, aim for the head"

[John Frederick Bell]

Originally Posted by jimmyj

Good Morning:
I hadn't heard the "Body Armor" story before. Those "Orient Gentlemen" main weapon was "Manpower". Lots and Lots of "Manpower".
Several instants where only every third or fourth soldier had a firearm
in a regiment. When the "Lucky " soldier went down, a weaponless buddy would pick up the weapon and continue on. Some were armed with 1903 Springfields and a few with Thompsons and M3 SMGs.
How "They" came by these weapons is up for question.
Jimmy

Sir,

My understanding is that the U.S. Government sent a large number of Thompsons to the Chinese prior to the start of the Second World War. The submachine guns were intended for use in the Nationalist Chinese army, though a good number wound up in service with the communists into Korea and as late as Viet Nam.

Somewhere in my collection I have a picture (for propaganda purposes, I assume) of a company-strength force armed completely with Thompsons, most of those with the 50-round drum.

[doc540]

"Additionally, the M2 is difficult to control in full auto mode, much more so than Thompsons and M3 grease guns."

Ya think?

[Tam 3]

Audie Murphey is on record as selecting a carbine.

Regards,

Tam 3

[deralte]

Heck, I was there and no gun was good enough to stop them, there were so damn many. Probably the two best weapons was the Quad 50 and napalm. The carbine was a fantastically good weapon - just didn't have the range of the Garand. By the time they got close enough for the carbine to be really effective - your position had already been overrun. Never heard of them wearing any body armour but did hear that a lot of them were higher than a kite.

[MaximumLawman]

Carbine users had the weapons until they found a Garand, BAR, Thompson, or M3 that wasn't attached to someone's person and then they were no longer Carbine users.
Jimmy

I talked to many WWII vets who served in Europe who had no use for the carbine. But I talked to Korean War vets who favored it over the M-1. They cited the fact that it held more ammo, which they liked in the face of human-wave attacks, they could carry more ammo, the M-2 was full auto and it was shorter and they liked it for fighting in and from the bunkers and trenches. The Korea vets I talked to weren't doing much long-range killing with the carbine. That's what the artillery and machine gun was for. When they got into the trenches and bunkers, they seemed to like the carbine OK.

Probably the two best weapons was the Quad 50 and napalm.

Someone told me that the last position to fall at Dien Bien Phu was the quad 50 position and only because they shot the barrels out or ran out of ammo. A Vietnam vet told me: "If you've ever seen the meat chopper go to work, you'd never forget it. Ever."

[bummer]

I have seen photographs from the ww2 and the basic load seems to be around 75(2 magazines on the belt,2 on the stock and 1 in the rifle)I think in E.B.Sledges book With the Old Breed he carried this plus a box of 50.The basic M-1 load was 80 on the belt and 1-2 bandoliers,and the o-3 was 100 plus 1-2 bandoliers.I think your job would also have a lot to do with the amount of ammo carried.

[Pilgrim]

It's interesting that a .357 magnum will go 'clear thru an engine block', but the more powerful .30 carbine won't go thru someone's coat.

The .gov made more .30 carbines in a shorter period of time than any other firearm.

I don't think they did that just so they could say they did it.

[kenpofan]

Respectfully Submitted..

My dear departed Uncle served our country in the pacific theater in WW2 . He spoke highly of the M-1 carbine and after I informed him of the claims made on the internet that Chinese didn't fall when hit he stated " Then they missed ! "

[Skeptic 9c]

The WWII rear echelon types used the M-1 Carbine for guard duty, the weapons were secured in the guard tent and issued with one magazine in the weapon, chamber empty, and two 15 rd. magazines on the stock.
Made for a very convenient package.

Geoff
Who notes the war stories of his father's generation, which I heard occasionally when I was very young.

[bennettfam]

I had a HS English teacher who was in the Pacific in WWII and was issued "a carbine and 90 rounds of ammunition." He was about as tall as a carbine so I doubt he could have carried much more. If your listening Mr. Pepper, nothing personal.

[GatorFarmer]

Originally Posted by Faulkner

- It has been demonstrated that the .30 carbine round does indeed penetrate body armor of that period and thick winter clothing at ranges the .30 carbine was designed for. I have also personally tested the .30 carbine round on modern ballistic vests and it easily penetrates Level II and IIa which is commonly utilized by LEO's today.
.

Note that the NIJ velocity testing standards recently changed in order to make each given threat level offer greater protection against higher velocity projectiles. Thus the old Level II "special threat" vests are probably now more akin to standard Level II. I don't know if .30 caliber M1 carbine rounds will penetrated the new ones or not, they will not reliably penetrate current military grade soft armor (essentially IIIA) or the better LE IIIA offerings even under the old standards.

Just something to keep in mind in case anyone is worried about miscreants wearing double layered Flectarn flak jackets or similar.